14th Amendment

friendlyfarmer

friendlyfarmer

Active Member
The Potologist said:
Is this some sort of formulated attack by the republicans on Obama? Is this there idea of getting him out of office? I dont get Republicans...They are a dying breed for obvious reasons!
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what obvious reasons? true republicans are a dead breed because there are very very few in office. the true conservative or in party terms republican, is a proponent of states rights, and a limited national govt. this is so that every state can be formed the way its citizens wants. this means 50 varied governments to choose from if you dno't like where you are, and it also means that it is easier to change things for yourself. the GWB view of republicans is ignorant. in an ideal society, people actually help those who really need it themselves instead of expecting the govt to, and the radical right form of government operates the best, because it allows the greatest amount of freedom. in other words, the only time that the ideal liberal/democrat society is a good choice, is when most people are either too selfish to help out on their own accord, and need to have taxes taken out forcibly despite claiming to be sharing, OR too lazy to take care of themselves.
 
blazin256

blazin256

Well-Known Member
friendlyfarmer said:
what most people don't realize about the 14th Amendment, is that it is the force that makes the Bill of Rights powerful. Until the Supreme Court interpretted the Due Process Clause of the 14th, the BoR only applied to the federal government, so state government's didn't HAVE to allow a freedom of speech, right to privacy, etc. Fed. prosecutors would even sometimes turn cases over to the state because there was not warrant requirement.

in other words, if we lose the 14th Amendment, we lose the Bill of Rights. It really is that simple.
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they want to CHANGE words in the citizenship clause, not repeal it. due process clause would be unaffected.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
blazin256 said:
Section 4 - Republican government
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence
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invasions generally involve a strategy and are planned. tell me, where in the plan is the part where your family goes starving and you have to work in exploitative conditions?

some invasion :roll:

http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/markets/economy/illegal-immigration-provides-benefits-states-despite-rhetoric/
 
blazin256

blazin256

Well-Known Member
their strategy is to cross illegally and their plan is to run fast and not get caught. if they want improved conditions they can fight and revolt for it, just like we did. but instead, they get catered to here. if alaska was getting millions of illegal russian immigrants, politicians would be ape shit. if improving your life isn't worth doing legally, what is?
 
The Potologist

The Potologist

Active Member
friendlyfarmer said:
what obvious reasons? true republicans are a dead breed because there are very very few in office. the true conservative or in party terms republican, is a proponent of states rights, and a limited national govt. this is so that every state can be formed the way its citizens wants. this means 50 varied governments to choose from if you dno't like where you are, and it also means that it is easier to change things for yourself. the GWB view of republicans is ignorant. in an ideal society, people actually help those who really need it themselves instead of expecting the govt to, and the radical right form of government operates the best, because it allows the greatest amount of freedom. in other words, the only time that the ideal liberal/democrat society is a good choice, is when most people are either too selfish to help out on their own accord, and need to have taxes taken out forcibly despite claiming to be sharing, OR too lazy to take care of themselves.
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"True Republicans are a dead breed because there are very very few in office"---ahhhh, I love it :) So are they a dead breed or a very very few breed??? I mean, if they are a dead breed, are there 4 in office, or zero??? For example, the T-Rex is a Dead Breed of Dinasours...There are Zero around...well, unless your on acid :)

Peace, Love, and Happiness
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
blazin256 said:
their strategy is to cross illegally and their plan is to run fast and not get caught. if they want improved conditions they can fight and revolt for it, just like we did. but instead, they get catered to here. if alaska was getting millions of illegal russian immigrants, politicians would be ape shit. if improving your life isn't worth doing legally, what is?
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catered to = working under exploitative conditions, is that right?

as far as doing it legally, almost 50% of illegals came here legally and overstayed their visa. so much for their strategy of crossing illegally and their plan to run like hell.

should i start marching out the horror stories of people waiting for months and years to get in from mexico or central america while their families starve? you can do a google search if you want, the stories abound....they are not hard to find.

how simple would it be to just reform the system to make it easy for workers to get seasonal work permits? it would turn most of the illegals into legals. then you'd have to find some other avenue to pick on them, like an imaginary dramatic upswing in crime they bring in (you did not say that to be fair, but many people are making this argument despite all the evidence and statistics to the contrary).
 
N

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
You know its great to feel bad for illegals because some have to work menial jobs, like hotel maids and fruit pickers or can't get healthcare, but if you feel bad for them, shouldn't you also feel bad for the other 70% of the world that live in WORSE conditions than most Mexicans do? Maybe the USA would be better if we just hosted everyone in the world who doesn't have a high standard of living. the USA would be a wonderful country with 5 billion people living here and 40 million to pay for all the services they would consume.100% tax rate sounds fair right? As long as your helping everyone.
 
SouthernGanja

SouthernGanja

Active Member
NoDrama said:
You know its great to feel bad for illegals because some have to work menial jobs, like hotel maids and fruit pickers or can't get healthcare, but if you feel bad for them, shouldn't you also feel bad for the other 70% of the world that live in WORSE conditions than most Mexicans do? Maybe the USA would be better if we just hosted everyone in the world who doesn't have a high standard of living. the USA would be a wonderful country with 5 billion people living here and 40 million to pay for all the services they would consume.100% tax rate sounds fair right? As long as your helping everyone.
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This reminds me of people who live in the USA and cry poverty while they talk on their cell phones...laughing with gold teeth in their mouth in an air conditioned/heated dwelling.

If you haven't been overseas you haven't seen real poverty. Hell, you only need to go 60 miles to the Bahamas to see people living in houses without windows, malnourished children going blind etc...just a few blocks from the gleaming resorts.

Even most of Europe isn't as developed as the USA.

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This 14th amendment shit is just kicking a hornets nest. It'll get a reaction, but not much will become of it.
 
Scuba

Scuba

Well-Known Member
SouthernGanja said:
This reminds me of people who live in the USA and cry poverty while they talk on their cell phones...laughing with gold teeth in their mouth in an air conditioned/heated dwelling.

If you haven't been overseas you haven't seen real poverty. Hell, you only need to go 60 miles to the Bahamas to see people living in houses without windows, malnourished children going blind etc...just a few blocks from the gleaming resorts.

Even most of Europe isn't as developed as the USA.

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This 14th amendment shit is just kicking a hornets nest. It'll get a reaction, but not much will become of it.
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true it's just more diversions for local media, while elitist take over the middle east. What about our troops invading? isn't that pretty close to how most of the US stereotypes illegal immigration......"invasion"?
 
blazin256

blazin256

Well-Known Member
UncleBuck said:
catered to = working under exploitative conditions, is that right?

as far as doing it legally, almost 50% of illegals came here legally and overstayed their visa. so much for their strategy of crossing illegally and their plan to run like hell.

should i start marching out the horror stories of people waiting for months and years to get in from mexico or central america while their families starve? you can do a google search if you want, the stories abound....they are not hard to find.

how simple would it be to just reform the system to make it easy for workers to get seasonal work permits? it would turn most of the illegals into legals. then you'd have to find some other avenue to pick on them, like an imaginary dramatic upswing in crime they bring in (you did not say that to be fair, but many people are making this argument despite all the evidence and statistics to the contrary).
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no they get catered to by having a baby that automatically becomes a citizen and in turn can qualify for state assistance, paid for by tax payers. when they get old enough to go to school, they dont speak a lick of english, now the schools suffer even more so because they have to spend more money on teachers that can "cater" to the spanish speaking kids.
being on medicare or medicaid, paid for by tax payers, have to "cater" to the spanish speakers by hiring more people that can communicate with them.
to try and keep this short and sum it up, they are costing us money, to the tune of billions according to this article http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm and if it was simple thing to reform the system it would've been done. you still have to teach their kids, keep them healthy, etc, which costs the taxpayer.
i was on work release and there was a mexican guy there, could hardly speak any english. he said he had about 4 kids i think, and was actually complaining about his youngest one watching english channels, listening to english music, like it offended him or something. one can only think that a majority thinks the same way. i live next door to mexicans, surrounded by them actually, but the lil kids next door guess what? dont speak any english, nada. so sure, lets have reform, but lets not let it cost billions of dollars that we already dont have.
 
Mindmelted

Mindmelted

Well-Known Member
Got this from a friend and it sure makes sense...
This got my attention, it made me realize how many times I'm asked for my ID, and I never thought that much about it. Now that I have, I can't, for the life of me, see why anyone should get upset.





**********************************************************************************





I'm a legal American citizen and I must show my ID when:
1. Pulled over by the police.




2. Making purchases on my department store credit card.






3. When I show up for a doctor's appointment.
4. When filling out a credit card or loan application.
5. When applying for or renewing a driver's license or passport.
 6. When applying for any kind of insurance.
7. When filling out college applications.
8. When donating blood.
 9. When obtaining certain prescription drugs.









10. When making some debit purchases, especially




if I'm out of state.




11. When collecting a boarding pass for airline or train travel.

I'm sure there are more instances, but the point is that we citizens of the USA are required to prove who we are nearly every day!




Why should people in this country, illegally, be exempt!!!




Why shouldn't we guard our borders as closely as every other country in the world does?








Go Arizona!!!​
















​
 
Scuba

Scuba

Well-Known Member
that's pretty true, and i have to give it to Arizona for being the first to get serious. But changing the amendment just to fit a certain group isn't right. Any changes to the amendment are pretty much spitting on our forefathers graves
 
blazin256

blazin256

Well-Known Member
it wont effect a group it will effect anyone wanting to come here and have babies. mexican, chinese, russian, etc. and its not like we're changing the bill of rights.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
blazin256 said:
no they get catered to by having a baby that automatically becomes a citizen and in turn can qualify for state assistance, paid for by tax payers. when they get old enough to go to school, they dont speak a lick of english, now the schools suffer even more so because they have to spend more money on teachers that can "cater" to the spanish speaking kids.
being on medicare or medicaid, paid for by tax payers, have to "cater" to the spanish speakers by hiring more people that can communicate with them.
to try and keep this short and sum it up, they are costing us money, to the tune of billions according to this article http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm and if it was simple thing to reform the system it would've been done. you still have to teach their kids, keep them healthy, etc, which costs the taxpayer.
i was on work release and there was a mexican guy there, could hardly speak any english. he said he had about 4 kids i think, and was actually complaining about his youngest one watching english channels, listening to english music, like it offended him or something. one can only think that a majority thinks the same way. i live next door to mexicans, surrounded by them actually, but the lil kids next door guess what? dont speak any english, nada. so sure, lets have reform, but lets not let it cost billions of dollars that we already dont have.
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all of this is kinda silly, especially wen you take into account the facts:

1) america has no official language
2) that kid who is born is an american citizen, entitled to the same rights and protections as any other american citizen

i can't imagine how loud you'll be screaming point 1) in 50 years when hispanics are the majority and want to establish spanish as our official language and decry having to cater to all those gringo english speakers...

it is also kind of ironic that by the time we are old men, we will be getting ss and medicare courtesy of the same soon to be majority hispanic population.

hispanics have long memories and will remember for generations how the republicans attempted to change the 14th amendment (on top of all the other crazy shit the right pulls). their short-sighted attempt to grab some midterm votes will soon backfire as hispanics march towards majority status. it didn't have to be this way, many hispanics are fiercely conservative/catholic and easy targets for the right....but alas the party of exclusion has chosen to shoot themselves in the foot instead. hardly surprising
 
blazin256

blazin256

Well-Known Member
even if you take mexicos total population and added it with the latino population in america, whites would still be the majority.
UncleBuck said:
2) that kid who is born is an american citizen, entitled to the same rights and protections as any other american citizen
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no they get extra rights because now we have to teach them the de facto language (happy?) of english to help them become productive american citizens.
i don't really know how to respond to anything else you said. all hispanics have to do is look at mexico and see the outcome of america if they control things.
 
undertheice

undertheice

Well-Known Member
Scuba said:
But changing the amendment just to fit a certain group isn't right. Any changes to the amendment are pretty much spitting on our forefathers graves
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though poor illegal immigrants from the south may be the biggest part of this problem, they are by no means the only ones taking advantage of this huge loophole in our immigration policy. not too long ago i read an article about a great little business set up by a chinese entrepreneur. the business put together special vacation trips for well-to-do pregnant women. first class accommodations and medical treatment in the united states, all so that the wealthy could provide their offspring with u.s. citizenship before being whisked back to china.

the idiots that try to make our immigration policies a matter of racism or xenophobia are ignoring the larger problem of allowing citizenship to people with no stake in the welfare of the country. going through the arduous process required to legally emigrate to this country shows an honest desire to become a member of this society and links one to the fate of the country. being born into a family of u.s. citizens likewise links one to the history and the future of the nation. scurrying across the border, hidden in the back of a truckload of rutabagas, to drop your litter and seek asylum among the countless communities of illegal immigrants only proves the disdain you hold for our society, our country and our laws. the fact that the mexican economy depends largely on the millions of dollars sent from the u.s. by immigrants, both legal and illegal, to their families back home only proves the point that, when push comes to shove, their allegiances belong on the other side of the border. demanding blind nationalistic pride of any citizen is asinine and smacks of fascist indoctrination, but allowing citizenship to millions who have an open disregard for the future of the nation is equally foolish and smacks of the end of u.s. sovereignty and the beginning of a more centralized control.
 
Scuba

Scuba

Well-Known Member
undertheice said:
though poor illegal immigrants from the south may be the biggest part of this problem, they are by no means the only ones taking advantage of this huge loophole in our immigration policy. not too long ago i read an article about a great little business set up by a chinese entrepreneur. the business put together special vacation trips for well-to-do pregnant women. first class accommodations and medical treatment in the united states, all so that the wealthy could provide their offspring with u.s. citizenship before being whisked back to china.

the idiots that try to make our immigration policies a matter of racism or xenophobia are ignoring the larger problem of allowing citizenship to people with no stake in the welfare of the country. going through the arduous process required to legally emigrate to this country shows an honest desire to become a member of this society and links one to the fate of the country. being born into a family of u.s. citizens likewise links one to the history and the future of the nation. scurrying across the border, hidden in the back of a truckload of rutabagas, to drop your litter and seek asylum among the countless communities of illegal immigrants only proves the disdain you hold for our society, our country and our laws. the fact that the mexican economy depends largely on the millions of dollars sent from the u.s. by immigrants, both legal and illegal, to their families back home only proves the point that, when push comes to shove, their allegiances belong on the other side of the border. demanding blind nationalistic pride of any citizen is asinine and smacks of fascist indoctrination, but allowing citizenship to millions who have an open disregard for the future of the nation is equally foolish and smacks of the end of u.s. sovereignty and the beginning of a more centralized control.
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true, just to clarify, what i meant by "certain group" was the political assholes who think they are any better then someone from another country. it's a give and take when you come to this country.
 
undertheice

undertheice

Well-Known Member
Scuba said:
To twist the Amendment to fit the agendas of a political party seems unjust to me.
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Scuba said:
true, just to clarify, what i meant by "certain group" was the political assholes who think they are any better then someone from another country. it's a give and take when you come to this country.
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it's sometimes hard to remember that politicians, that inevitably corrupt group of power hungry animals, are occasionally capable of working in the best interests of their constituents. it becomes particularly difficult when they are a part of the group that seems to stand diametrically opposed to your every ideal. regardless of their ulterior motives, it should be obvious that anyone who proposes to fill in the loophole in our immigration policy provided by the fourteenth amendment is serving the best interests of the nation's citizenry. the people have maintained so little control over their government that we can't afford to be too choosy when it comes to who proposes such benefits to our society and why they do it. arguing against those benefits merely because you don't like the other points of their agenda is just plain silly.

this isn't about anyone being better than anyone else, it is a simple matter of maintaining some semblance of order so that this nation may retain its sovereignty. if there are to be separate nations with separate sets of laws, then there must be a way to differentiate their populations. we can't just say that we want to play by this set of rules today and that set tomorrow, without thought to how it affects the rest of those societies. with membership in different societies comes different responsibilities and privileges and there must be some way to make sure we all pay our dues for the privileges we expect and the benefits we receive. there is only so much employment in this country, only so much funding available for services and aid. should we deny our own citizens, to whom we owe first allegiance, access to what this country has to offer, for the sake of the rest of the world? it would seem that this is the very meaning of "charity begins at home".
 
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