23 Days, Yellowing Fan Leaves

Uncle Ben said:

Jesse, call me jaded. If the info doesn't come from a bonafide, non partisan, impartial organization like a university I won't pay it much attention. Almost all hydro foods I've seen reverse the N and K values, and to date, no one has explained to me why. Why they would sell a "Grow" food that's intended for veg with a NPK like 3-6-9 is beyond me.
UB

Click to expand...

I am not going to argue with you about much, but especially not about plant nutrition. I am reading what you have linked to as I am browsing RIU so thanks again.

My instincts tell me to just let the plants grow without topping/FIM'ing or tying anything down because I have never grown these strains before so I can't accurately predict what they are going to do. I can just be so damn indecisive. I love the UB topping method though, especially how it pulls open the canopy

UB i run all hanna instruments with all proper calibration solutions checked every time i feed this is just the one time i ever encountered such a low ph normally all my feedings consist of a solid 7.0 i dont know what happened anyways could say i was lucky i guess i am one that feeds from a 3 " clone 600ppm and by end of first week 850 second week veg 1150 - 1200 like these girls transplanted from a 3 " clone to final pot size 5000 watts C02 enriched there over 18" tall and on day 16 of veg

bigjesse1922 said:

And sorry from me for giving you the wrong advice. I guess my mind just couldn't accept the fact that the plant needed N when it's in Miracle Grow time release soil even though it clearly looked like it was N def., just thought that was being caused by the pH but the more I think about it now, if that was the case, it would look more than just N def based on my research, because N is absorbed more readily throughout the "acceptable" pH scale than many others.

Well, I am not above learning and am glad you didn't flush them to have to find out it was just N def.

Click to expand...

Just a thought, most if not all typical plant foods use a short nutrient charge in the form of the brand I use and mentioned (Plant products, blue and gray pellets). Those pellets can be found in MG or Schultz, forgot which since I never buy them. Also, they balance the mix's pH to around 6.5 by starting with acidic organics (peat, pine bark, compost) buffered with lime in some form or fashion and then topped off with an aerator like vermiculite or perlite.

Also, upon flushing, the first macro to go is N especially if it's in a nitrate form.

UB

Uncle Ben said:

My fault, I should not have singled you out plus I admit, I didn't read the entire thread. I've just seen this problem with every new crop of noobs. Here's a thread that might help (that's been plagarized all across forums):
https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/158144-never-ending-abuse-phosphorous-bloom.html

Click to expand...

Understood. I can see how having the same problem come up again and again with beginners would get annoying.
I'll give that thread a read right now.

I had also recently read this one about pH myth when I was first starting out this grow: https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/463814-me-do-only-select-few.html
It made a lot of sense to me at the time and I had basically avoided bothering with pH at all until discussing this current issue in this thread. I'm still torn by the whole thing after everything that I've discussed with people in this thread. But my gut does say that the theory in that thread makes a lot of sense.

And jesse, no worries bro. You absolutely helped me learn a few new things and added quite a few items to my list of things to research and experiment with further.

Ben, just read this in your initial post of the thread you linked:

Uncle Ben said:

I rotate fert blends as the plant *requires* them, not because it is "the thing to do." For example, when your plants are going thru the stretch phase during early flowering, they may need more N, especially if you're getting some yellowing in the lower leaves. Give up the cannabis paradigms and give them what they need. Go back to mild high P fert when the stretch ends, maintaining the foliage in a healthy state of growth until harvest for maximum yields. A 1-3-2 blend such as Peter's Pro Blossom Booster, 10-30-20, is one of the best flowering blends on the market because of several factors - it is higher in nitrate N and Mg. It is sold under the Jack's Classic label. An added benefit of Peters blends is their use of high quality, very pure salts that will eliminate root burn if used judiciously.

Uncle Ben

Click to expand...

That is the exact fertilizer I already started using two waterings ago! 1/2 strength first time, full strength next time. Should I just continue with that fertilizer then and let this work itself out?
Edit: Nevermind, I re-read your earlier comments about that.

Also, had I not repotted a week before going to flower, I was actually intending on sticking with the Jack's 20-20-20 through the initial stretch of flowering because it made more sense to me that a plant would need a fertilizer that supports growth, not flowering, during that stage (that's actually exactly what I did with my bagseed plant which is having NO issues right now).

__________

You know what, I'm going to go with what feels right to me and that's to give this plant more N. The buds are looking good still but the leaves obviously are in need. I'm going to do the next feeding with 20-20-20. If my thinking is wrong someone just set me straight, otherwise I'll continue with this and post updates on how it's going.

psyte said:

You know what, I'm going to go with what feels right to me and that's to give this plant more N. The buds are looking good still but the leaves obviously are in need. I'm going to do the next feeding with 20-20-20. If my thinking is wrong someone just set me straight, otherwise I'll continue with this and post updates on how it's going.

Click to expand...

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think UB was suggesting something like 3-1-1 (30-10-10).

Do you think the plants might need far greater amounts of nitrogen right now than the other three, given what you're looking at?

I would also be curious to hear from UB if my research is correct that it takes 7-10 days or perhaps slightly longer, before you notice a difference in the plants with something like this? A nutrient deficiency. I was always under the impression that it took some time for the plant to get the recently added nutrients readily available to it. Curious to know.

Yeah I may be mixing up his advice in the other thread with what I should do for my specific circumstance. I think the 20-20-20 is probably a safe bet in between a bloom fert and a N high fert, though.
If I'm lucky even the bloom fert given in the last feeding may help since it does still have a decent amount of N. I think you're right about it being around a week to see results from a fertilizer.

You're right. I went back and he did say 30-10-10 originally. Damn and I was just at the garden store today. Probably won't make it out there again before the next feeding.

Change in plans. It's getting watered tonight. It went through this last watering much more quickly than the one before and it's definitely ready to be watered now. I'm going with 20-20-20 and then may be able to pick up 30-10-10 before next watering.

Best of luck keep us posted!

bigjesse1922 said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think UB was suggesting something like 3-1-1 (30-10-10).

Click to expand...

Correct. That would correct the N deficiency and such foods are usually high in chelated micros, an added bonus. Another option is to scratch in some blood meal into the soil. Most high N foods contain a combo of urea, ammonical type salts (i.e. ammonium sulfate or nitrate) and/or nitrates (potassium or calcium nitrate). Look at the 10-30-20. It's fairly high in nitrates for the N source. Kicker is it's about NPK ratios and this is where 90% of noobs go wrong. They can sure as hell talk cute bottle names but few know what's in them, or even care LOL.

I would also be curious to hear from UB if my research is correct that it takes 7-10 days or perhaps slightly longer, before you notice a difference in the plants with something like this? A nutrient deficiency. I was always under the impression that it took some time for the plant to get the recently added nutrients readily available to it. Curious to know.

Click to expand...

Correct, it depends on the urea amount, and Jack's 20-20-20 N source is pure urea. Might work good as a foliar spray though. Urea has to be converted into nitrate form before it can be used by the plant. Time of conversion depends on the microbe colony and soil temps.

Thanks, Ben, that's good to know. I was going to grab some Jack's Orchid Special 30-10-10, but looking at the manufacturers site it says the nitrogen content is:
Total Nitrogen (N) 30%
1.08% Nitrate Nitrogen
28.8% Urea Nitrogen

Is that going to be enough Nitrate Nitrogen? Doesn't sound like much but I'm really not sure what kind of content I should be looking for.
I believe you also recommended Dyna-Gro 9-3-6 in one of your articles I was reading last night. That manufacturer lists the content as:
Total Nitrogen (N) 9%
Ammoniacal (NH4) 2.9%
Nitrate (NO3) 6.1%

It sounds like this one would be better since it doesn't contain any urea. Is that correct?

Good ole Fish Emulsion(most are 5-1-1)is perfect for correcting an N def. Much of the N is readily available right away and it also has a host of other goodies to offer the plant and soil.......

psyte said:

Thanks, Ben, that's good to know. I was going to grab some Jack's Orchid Special 30-10-10, but looking at the manufacturers site it says the nitrogen content is:
Total Nitrogen (N) 30%
1.08% Nitrate Nitrogen
28.8% Urea Nitrogen

Is that going to be enough Nitrate Nitrogen? Doesn't sound like much but I'm really not sure what kind of content I should be looking for.
I believe you also recommended Dyna-Gro 9-3-6 in one of your articles I was reading last night. That manufacturer lists the content as:
Total Nitrogen (N) 9%
Ammoniacal (NH4) 2.9%
Nitrate (NO3) 6.1%

It sounds like this one would be better since it doesn't contain any urea. Is that correct?

Click to expand...

There's nothing wrong with urea, it just takes longer to work if in soil. 5-1-1 is a good choice too but it seems to take a while for me. Foliage Pro is fine.

If they were mine, I'd hit them with ammonium sulfate at a rate of 1 tsp/gallon until the newer leaves show recovery. If using rainwater, you might be able to get by with 2 tsp/gal. However, that will not help regarding some micro problems I'm seeing in the upper leafsets, reason why I recommended a 30-10-10 in the first place. Such formulations, many acid forming under labels of "Azalea and Germanium" fertilizer, contain chelated micros. The 21-7-7 "acid forming" fertilizers are good too. Helps to have several of these in your toolbox in case of emergencies.

Sorry to bear bad news, but most of those leaves may not recover, damage has been done. You're left with no other choice than to focus on the most recent and future leaf production. Lesson learned - this is not the time to be doing an "ah shit". What most folks don't get is the fact that their final yield is directly related to the final health and mass of the foliage upon harvest.

And no, "yellowing leaves and leaf necrosis during flowering" is NOT normal. That's just a cover up because some marijuana nerd doesn't have what it takes to retain leaves until harvest.

Good luck,
UB

Uncle Ben said:

There's nothing wrong with urea, it just takes longer to work if in soil. 5-1-1 is a good choice too but it seems to take a while for me. Foliage Pro is fine.

If they were mine, I'd hit them with ammonium sulfate at a rate of 1 tsp/gallon until the newer leaves show recovery. If using rainwater, you might be able to get by with 2 tsp/gal. However, that will not help regarding some micro problems I'm seeing in the upper leafsets, reason why I recommended a 30-10-10 in the first place. Such formulations, many acid forming under labels of "Azalea and Germanium" fertilizer, contain chelated micros. The 21-7-7 "acid forming" fertilizers are good too. Helps to have several of these in your toolbox in case of emergencies.

Click to expand...

Very cool, thank you. Hopefully I'll be in town tomorrow and I'll see what they have. I know I can get the Jack's 30-10-10 but not sure about anything else.

Uncle Ben said:

Sorry to bear bad news, but most of those leaves may not recover, damage has been done. You're left with no other choice than to focus on the most recent and future leaf production. Lesson learned - this is not the time to be doing an "ah shit". What most folks don't get is the fact that their final yield is directly related to the final health and mass of the foliage upon harvest.

And no, "yellowing leaves and leaf necrosis during flowering" is NOT normal. That's just a cover up because some marijuana nerd doesn't have what it takes to retain leaves until harvest.

Good luck,
UB

Click to expand...

Yeah I figured the damage wouldn't be able to be reversed. I'll just be happy if I can stop it from declining any further and make it through to harvest. I know the harvest will probably be significantly affected by this but I'd at least like to get something out of my first plant. At least I've learned a lot and have some new resources to research so hopefully I can circumvent this completely in the future. It's as important to me to understand why this happened as it is to fix it, and I think I now have a much better understanding of what went wrong.
And you're right, when I was researching the problem before starting the thread for every person who thought it was a deficiency there was another person who insisted it was totally normal. Although part of me wanted to believe that, I was very skeptical. I can't imagine seeing a plant ready for harvest covered in yellow leaves and thinking "yeah that's a good looking plant!"


At this point I think I'll hit it with 30-10-10 until new foliage is looking good and then stick to 20-20-20 until harvest and just skip the 10-30-20 entirely on this grow.

Ben, I forgot to ask you... how often and at what concentration do you feed Jack's? I know I'll need to adjust as I go according to the plant's specific needs, I'm just curious about your general recommendation and I haven't seen that mentioned in any of your articles I've read so far. I've been feeding according to the directions at 1/4 tsp per gal every watering.

I'm gonna jump in on this cause I'm having a similar issue. I'll try to get a picture, but honestly I would have a hard time showing what I'm seeing.

1 out of 5 plants looks much paler than the rest. It is very uniformly pale. It was getting fish emulsion in veg about every other watering. Went into flowering about 18 days ago switched to FF Big Bloom. I noticed the paler color a few days ago. I added some fish emulsion to the last watering, yesterday, to try and correct it. I also measure the pH for the first time. The water/nute solution was pretty low, about 5.9. I adjusted it up to 6.5. So question is was fish emulsion the right move and how long till I should see a response? Also how concerned should I be with pH? I'm in soil BTW.

Here's some pics. First one is a plant with no issues. The 2nd picture is the one that is yellowing. The pic of the fan leaves is 3 that came off the problem plant. The 2 very yellow leaves are an extreme example of the problem. The leaf at the top right is actually starting to get pale. It very subtle. The leaf at the bottom is just fine and I included it for a color comparison.