3 male pheno's to choose from for pollinating.......help & input requested

Hello all,

So I'm growing out a 10 pack of Omega Dawg from Alphakronic genetics https://www.cannabis-seeds-bank.co.uk/alphakronik-genes-seeds-omega-dawg/prod_53.html and I have 3 very different male Phenos to choose from.

I'll be pollinating Paradise's Acid (Diesel), NL#5 and Girl Scout cookie females just for fun and to see how they all turn out.

Pheno #1 - VERY tall & lanky BUT it was the first to drop pollen, at least 4-8 days earlier than the other 2
Pheno #2 - Much shorter, by about 9 inches, better inter-node spacing and lateral branching but the last to drop pollen
Pheno #3 - A total hybrid from the first 2, medium height, decent lateral branching and dropped pollen about 3 days after #1 but 3 days earlier than #2

They all seem to have about the same amount of resin & sacs so it basically comes down to what variant I want to pollinate back to a few of the female Omega Dawgs I am growing and the other strains mentioned

Is an early flowering male going to translate into earlier flowering in their offspring? Same with stretch and smell I am assuming.
Am I correct?

Thanks for your help

Slip

do not use #1. Growth and stretch is not what you are looking for in a male plant, ever!

Can you pollinate with one of them, keep two of them and clone your females and then experiment more?

I'd prob choose #2

CashCrops said:

Can you pollinate with one of them, keep two of them and clone your females and then experiment more?

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Yes I can use them all to test different branches of the female that I'm keeping as the mom (got cuts from her already). I'll just use different color zip ties to keep track, thanks for the idea!

I live in So Cal so I'm sure they would re-veg during the winter as it rarely gets below 45 here?

Your feedback is appreciated, + rep

Slip

i'd go with number 2 as well since you should be looking for all the characteristics of that plant to pass onto it's offsrpring..

do not use #1. Growth and stretch is not what you are looking for in a male plant, ever!

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that's not what DJ shorts would say. i used to select for compact indica dominance, but now WOULD select for the stretchy slow phenos as, to parapraqse what he said (or was it TGA?), "select for recessive males. that's where all of the fun happens" i could see how always selecting for the fastest male would tend to make strains revert back to their wild state. THAT's what dominany genes will do, go back to the tried and true traits. think about it, all of the great strains out there now have been from selecting "rare phenos". the original landraces didn't have all of the great flavors that today's strains have. you'll not likely find any "pina colada" phenos in the wild, but selecting for recessive traits gives those flavors to "the third dimension". the prized cinnamon girl jack herer pheno is a rarity too. i could see how selecting for dominant males could be part of the reason so many hazes are generic and don't live up to the trippiness from neville's original where i'm sure many got their start. any SHORTcuts you make in growing & breeding lower quality. as far as getting high goes at least, the very best stuff is STILL the stretchy stuff. it's no coincidence that 2 of my top 3 faves are stretchy and take up to 12 weeks.

if you want to read up on what shorts & subcool say about breeding, here, read their stuff. there's some good info in there. now i KNOW that using cervantes' mid 80s suggestion to use halides instead of sodium if you're looking for top QUALITY was spot on as shorts or TGA confirm it and my own experience showed me my C99 & super cali haze gals had more grape flavor, particularly the SCH grown under a halide than their offspring grown under a sodium.

anyways, check these two posts out. i think shorts & subcool both deserve to be taken seriously. i know when an elite breeder says something, i listen.
https://www.rollitup.org/breeders-paradise/48788-tips-breeding-dj-short.html
&
https://www.rollitup.org/breeders-paradise/48785-subcools-breeding-better-cannabis.html

if anyone knows of any suggestions from sannies, mr nice or DNA etc., i'd like to read up on that too. now that i've read both of those threads, i'm going to keep "long tall cindy", my tallest joey weed C99, as my mother of choice if i ever revisit that strain, but i'm liking jack herers better these days.

indica likes to dominate. even at just 25%, it's still fucking skunk #1's buzz up as far as i'm concerned. to me it's more of an indica than a sativa despite what the numbers suggest. i'm all for breeding AWAY from afghani to begin with. i don't have to sweat yields anyways though. i just want the best gear i can get or make myself. tackling malawi gold and then even stretchier and slower IBLs is a future goal to breed with today's state of the art jacks for even hazier buds that produce some weight.

which male you chose ultimately depends on your priorities. really, why not test all three first and decide based on their results? that's the only way to know for certain what each one does. definitely read those 2 threads though... very good info.

I think sub and dj would pick 2 because shortness and late pollen are recessive /drug traits. Plus the plant has a good structure.

Slippyone said:

Yes I can use them all to test different branches of the female that I'm keeping as the mom (got cuts from her already). I'll just use different color zip ties to keep track, thanks for the idea!

I live in So Cal so I'm sure they would re-veg during the winter as it rarely gets below 45 here?

Your feedback is appreciated, + rep

Slip

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no lower than 45 must be nice!

i could see how always selecting for the fastest male would make strains revert back to their wild state.

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. Thank you for proving my point. Doing that would be conterintuitive unless there was something special presenting itself i.e. Heavy resin production, specific flavors, etc which OP did not state were present.

From subcool's sticky you referred to on RIU. It says it all.

The first mistake people make in selecting a male is by choosing the most vigorous. Remember those complexities I mentioned earlier? Well, the recessive drug traits we seek are stashed away in non-vigorous males. Think about the plant in the wild, the natural progression of Cannabis is back to Hemp. The drugs strains we have today are a direct result of human intervention. Robert Clark says it better “In the wild, the early males always win the breeding contest. Without proper selection, these early males cause "acclimatization" of the variety, and a decrease in drug quality. This is the "dominant" state of Cannabis. If it were otherwise, why would we need breeders? All you would have to do is let the plants do their own thing and they would become more potent over time, but they don't. The only way drug varieties ever get better is through human intervention in the natural order.”

But are vigor and potency mutually exclusive? That quote would suggest so but I dont think thats necessarily the case. If that were indeed true..you could start a line and pick the weakest looking male each round and potentially create a mega strong strain just by doing that,when in reality I dont think breeding is that simple.

it's not that simple but if all things are the same then you would want to go with #2 and #3 everytime.

I would say go for #2 if you don't mind a bit of indica stone (late opening flowers - recessive traits, short internodes - easy to grow indoors). 3# may give a bit more of a sativa buzz...

it really depends what your looking for like a smell,taste,potency,yield,flower times, etc . you can test all the males on one plant by puting bags of pollen over different buds then growing out your seed stock to determine which male is best. but you should really try breeding for a certain trait but as long as you have a good mom and pop your gonna have decent seeds but it would be nice to have your own stable lines then you'll be better off then most seed companies as most of them don't work their strains these days just pump out hybrids of hybrids.

But are vigor and potency mutually exclusive?

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you're oversimplifying. aghani likes to dominate like a motherfucker. don't believe it, smoke some 25% afghani skunk #1 for a month and see if you wind up getting nothing but stoned or EVER even experience trippy effects. afghani IS potent and even resinous. it's not about potency, it's about QUALITY. that's why pretty much ALL the original dutch strains were stoner schwag. i don't think neville's haze even hit the market until the mid 90s. i can remember only a couple breeders having haze around '00 when i started getting online and his was something like $280.

regarding trippy effects, lanky stretchy plants are the ones that always want to seem the most visual. stretchy 12 week haze skunk and stretchy sweet haze had the two trippiest and most motivational buzzes i've had so far from indo, but jack's cleaner 2 is more compact and possibly even more visual, but it's also CLEARLY stonier. there seems to be no free rides when it comes to getting high at least. natural wild plants are probably more like ruderalis. today's weed strains, afghani and sativa alike have been selected for buzzes. MJ doesn't know people grow it to get high, all it wants to do is reproduce. if anything, growing more resin glands eats energy and lowers breeding dominance.

reverting to natural states is probably why so much "haze" out there is so lame and boring compared to REAL IBL strains that haven't been so diluted and bred. breeders tend to select dominant males, been there done that myself, and it lowers quality.

when it comes to truly getting high, there aren't too many shortcuts, but as breeders have been selecting for that quality for generations, today's hybrids are much better, but the real deal... 15 week trees are STILL better. no hybrid i've blazed yet is both as trippy AND motivational as columbian gold. personally, i think it's gods way of saying "if you want the best, give it some love and stop being so greedy" in a good things come to those who wait kind of way.

i imagine it's hard to separate compact structure from stony THC profiles. plants that get you high like to grow high. oh well

another way to put it would be MJ doesn't give a shit about what WE want and if we stop intervening, it will revert to doing what IT wants and wasting energy producing resin isn't a priority. weed wants to be ruderalis and probably some afghani equivalent.

hazey grapes said:

you're oversimplifying. aghani likes to dominate like a motherfucker. don't believe it, smoke some 25% afghani skunk #1 for a month and see if you wind up getting nothing but stoned or EVER even experience trippy effects. afghani IS potent and even resinous. it's not about potency, it's about QUALITY. that's why pretty much ALL the original dutch strains were stoner schwag. i don't think neville's haze even hit the market until the mid 90s. i can remember only a couple breeders having haze around '00 when i started getting online and his was something like $280.

regarding trippy effects, lanky stretchy plants are the ones that always want to seem the most visual. stretchy 12 week haze skunk and stretchy sweet haze had the two trippiest and most motivational buzzes i've had so far from indo, but jack's cleaner 2 is more compact and possibly even more visual, but it's also CLEARLY stonier. there seems to be no free rides when it comes to getting high at least. natural wild plants are probably more like ruderalis. today's weed strains, afghani and sativa alike have been selected for buzzes. MJ doesn't know people grow it to get high, all it wants to do is reproduce. if anything, growing more resin glands eats energy and lowers breeding dominance.

reverting to natural states is probably why so much "haze" out there is so lame and boring compared to REAL IBL strains that haven't been so diluted and bred. breeders tend to select dominant males, been there done that myself, and it lowers quality.

when it comes to truly getting high, there aren't too many shortcuts, but as breeders have been selecting for that quality for generations, today's hybrids are much better, but the real deal... 15 week trees are STILL better. no hybrid i've blazed yet is both as trippy AND motivational as columbian gold. personally, i think it's gods way of saying "if you want the best, give it some love and stop being so greedy" in a good things come to those who wait kind of way.

i imagine it's hard to separate compact structure from stony THC profiles. plants that get you high like to grow high. oh well

another way to put it would be MJ doesn't give a shit about what WE want and if we stop intervening, it will revert to doing what IT wants and wasting energy producing resin isn't a priority. weed wants to be ruderalis and probably some afghani equivalent.

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This is all completely false.

hazey grapes said:

you're oversimplifying. aghani likes to dominate like a motherfucker. don't believe it, smoke some 25% afghani skunk #1 for a month and see if you wind up getting nothing but stoned or EVER even experience trippy effects. afghani IS potent and even resinous. it's not about potency, it's about QUALITY. that's why pretty much ALL the original dutch strains were stoner schwag. i don't think neville's haze even hit the market until the mid 90s. i can remember only a couple breeders having haze around '00 when i started getting online and his was something like $280.

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first of all skunk #1 was not bred to be a haze 1/3rd of the genetics are afghani sensi seeds has it listed 35% sativa 65% indica it was bred to have more indica traits like the short flower time but also keeping traits of the sativas it is an IBL but the afghan is more dominent in skunk #1.
as for hazes they have always been around you can even look at old seed catolouges from the 80's they have some on the mr. nice forum but I can't get on it right now but I'm sure you can search google. but nevilles haze is Nl5/HazeA x HazeC now it has about the same amount of of indica as skunk #1 but it was bred for more of the sativa but your looking at 16 weeks some go longer. a full sativa goes even longer if you look at the old school seed catolouges you'll see haze plants going to january I almost think even february but most of the countries with people that can afford seeds can't bring a plant past dec-jan and 16 weeks is also too long of a time for me to flower a strain indoors so they don't really sell full sativas or pure haze cause the don't sell. look at dr. grinspoon it don't yield for shit but its a heirloom sativa adding just a touch of indica turns whispy airy buds of a full sativa to what you see in like neville's haze or nl5 x haze and they keep plenty of the sativa traits.

you can see just how big of a difference mixing indica the santa maria will yield for shit but you see any nevils haze grows them buds are way bigger and nicer then any full sativa will ever be.
[video=youtube;xn1JDGQstIE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn1JDGQstIE&has_verified=1[/video]

first of all skunk #1 was not bred to be a haze 1/3rd of the genetics are afghani sensi seeds has it listed 35% sativa 65% indica it was bred to have more indica traits like the short flower time but also keeping traits of the sativas it is an IBL but the afghan is more dominent in skunk #1.

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WRONG! skunk #1 is 75% sativa and 25% indica, seedfinder lists it as (afghani x mexican) x columbian. trust me, i've smoked columbian and it's the trippiest strain i've ever smoked. 50% columbian and 25% more mexican should NOT be as stony as boring ass skunk #1 is. i use it as an example because first off, the buzz doesn't match the percentages and secondly because it was "the best" strain you could buy around 1987 according to kees from super sativa seed club. i knew he was full of shit trying to compare that lame schwag to columbian, which at the time i thought was actually thai because that's what lying dealers called it for the name brand recognition. dutch passion lists the 25% mexican as acapulco gold.

any other questions of the facts you need clarified? i thought EVERYONE knew skunk #1 was 75% mexican and 25% afghani.

your info is soooooo wrong, yet you try and call me out. keep it up. i like pulling facts out on trolls and bookmarking for future reference.

BTW. if there IS ever anything i AM wrong about, oh, like thinking IBL means inbred land race because that was the wrong way i learned it, i'll be the first to admit it after some researching. OK, i just looked it up, and sensi seeds DOES list the percentages YOU claim, but every other source i've ever seen gives the 50% columbian, 25% mexican/acapulco & 25% afghani stats. someone is wrong. i believe the same stats i've ALWAYS believed as, like i said, kees kept trying to tell me how much i'd love skunk #1 when i knew he was full of crap as red hair & skunk, the first indicas i saw sucked.

the majority of sites i've looked at agree with the stats i give and only sensi seeds gives your stats. maybe their version was crossed with afghani.

This is all completely false.

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sources that say 75% sativa 25% afghani...
http://en.seedfinder.eu/strain-info/The_Pure/Flying_Dutchmen/
http://www.cannabissearch.com/strains/pure-skunk-1/
http://www.cannabis-seeds.co.uk/dutchpassion/skunk-1.html
http://cannagenetic.phpwebhosting.com/cgi-bin/showstrain.pl?StrainChoice=skunk1

and i'll stop there. i NEVER make shit up, ever. i have no explanation why sensi seeds contradicts everyone else. they must have re-bred it or reclassified it by the way it actually smokes. they're the only source for your numbers i've seen. i'd hate to think that you deliberately chose just their stats to try and sneak a lie in edgewise. i won't hold my breath waiting for EITHER of you to admit i'm 4:1 more right than you here as you seem to be more negative campaigner types than fact checkers.

either way,
I WAS RIGHT SAYING SKUNK #1 IS 25% AFGHANI

you want to argue your point further, take it up with dutch passion, flying dutchman and every other source that says sensi is full of shit

Fucking hell, Hazey are you thick?

50% Sativa (Columbian)
25% sativa (Mexican)
25% Indica (afghani#1)


It was Sams "Sam the skunk man" that breed it so stop talking as if you have grown it out and mastered it.

The thing is with SK#1 is one company might fancy the Indica phenos to breed and another might want one more Columbian gold like.

Each company got their original seeds before big companies we have today so they were all probably earlier F1-2-3s (sams siad he bought MIXED bags from many generations)
So Skunk#1 is dependent on the original breeder. Mr nice Does his on the hard Afghani side, Seedsman-Sams do theirs on the 55-80% sativa side


But you can argue the genetics but they are them 3 you listed yes but in the quantity its allways desputed as the plant gets on