45 days of vegging and still no roots?

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
How can I know? My pH levels are still rising throughout the day. I dose my soln with H2O2 and I adjust my soln daily, but it still changes. I drop it to about 5.6 every night and around the same time the next night it's up to 6.2 - 6.4. I give it about 10ml/g of H2O2, but the soln still has some gunk in it.
Ok, this is getting fuckin' annoying. Somewhere in this thing, there's a source of pathogens that isn't getting killed.

Is the water you're using free of pathogens? Does it fizz when you add H2O2 to plain tapwater?

Pour some plain water through the pot of the problem plant/s. Catch the runoff. Add H2O2 to the runoff water and see if it fizzes.

I think at this point, I'd drain & flush the system with 5.8 water with 10ml/L H2O2 (37.8ml/gal), allow runoff to drain to waste, don't recirculate it, mix a new tank of sauce spot on 5.8 and see what happens in 24h.

Can I chop up one of these plants and use a clone as a mother and flower my original? That way I can be guaranteed to flower something this cycle. It's almost 90 days of vegging. I thought I would be lickin' my lips staring at crystals by this time.
As long as you know the sex, cut your clones and flower the mums- but only after they have well and truly set root. You don't want to be in a position where clones fail and your mum has been flowered.

My plants tips are about 4 inches from the light so I think the temps are about 90. At the base of the plants the temp is about 80 - 82 F.
Shit, that's a problem. Max temp should be 26C (78.8F).

I don't recall offhand what sort of light you have, but 4" is too close for plants to survive anything but a 400 in a cooltube (and that's really too close, even for a 400 in a 'tube).

So you think it's nute deficiency?
It's really quite unlikely to be a deficiency caused by an actual lack of nutrient if you're using a well known brand of hydro nutes at an appropriate strength & pH, somewhere around 1400ppm @ 5.8.

Yeah I noticed this. My problem right now isn't really yellow. Just from the pictures what would be your opinion on my plants' readiness for flowering?
If sex is known, fire at will, but get clones and get them to set root first before flipping the mums to 12/12.
 

Ngozer

Active Member
Ok, this is getting fuckin' annoying.
You're telling me. If only I had a nickle for every time I told myself that I'm done with all of this, I'd be a millionaire.

Is the water you're using free of pathogens? Does it fizz when you add H2O2 to plain tapwater?
Well, when I first read about H2O2 I was kinda excited to see some fizzing action. I soon found out that the only fizzing I'd see is my skin when I got a bit on my thumb. Other than that, I have never seen any fizzing in my solns.

I think at this point, I'd drain & flush the system with 5.8 water with 10ml/L H2O2 (37.8ml/gal), allow runoff to drain to waste, don't recirculate it, mix a new tank of sauce spot on 5.8 and see what happens in 24h.
I didn't have time to drain to waste, but I did bombard my soln with H2O2. After 24h the pH went from 5.8 to 5.9 so that seems to be dealt with.

Shit, that's a problem. Max temp should be 26C (78.8F).

I don't recall offhand what sort of light you have, but 4" is too close for plants to survive anything but a 400 in a cooltube (and that's really too close, even for a 400 in a 'tube).
To combat any heat concerns, I have bumped up the cab's A/C so the temps @ the bottom of the plants are about 75C and the top of the plant is about 79C to 82C (depending on the time of day). The way that I made the cab, I have the A/C intake on the bottom next too my reservoir, which is then exhausted out the top. The problem is, to control the temps on the tops of my plants I need to crank up the A/C which in turns chills the fuck out of my res. What should the lowest temp of my soln be? I've read lots of stuff, from 15C to 20C to 76F to 86F. Right now my soln temp is about 15C, is that okay?

I'm using a 250w HPS in a SunLeaves reflector. I would love to drop my a bit, but my plants are quite tall now and my only opinion would be to move them out from directly beneath the lights to the periphery. That's exactly what I have been doing with Ms. B and the Runt.

It's really quite unlikely to be a deficiency caused by an actual lack of nutrient if you're using a well known brand of hydro nutes at an appropriate strength & pH, somewhere around 1400ppm @ 5.8.
Man, this whole project has taken up like 10x the amount of time, effort, and money that I originally expected. Is it normally this tough the first time around or is it just me?

If it's not nute deficiency WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?!?! I check my pH daily now so it's definitely not pH imbalance. I check nutes daily and it usually doesnt jump around too much. Can my nute meter be fucked? Do you calibrate TDS meters?!

If it was nutes, then all my plants would be affected, right? Ms. A still looks great to me (although I might need to change that to Mr. A- yes it's true. I was doing a brief preflower check and it looked to me like Mr. A and the Runt are bona fide sausage-fest cardholders... FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!) I'm only clinging onto the hope that my botanical illiteracy won't fail me now.

Ms. B still looks like shit. I swear, she looks EXACTLY how she did before, when you first started helping me- long and skinny, with all of her lower and upper leaves curled down and together like raptor talons. As far as I know that's over-watering, right? It's especially frustrating to know that for about 1 week, she was insanely gorgeous. I'm telling you, she could have been a supermodel for High Times. Now, she looks like a dirty, cracked out whore. WTF? Al, can you recreate that magic that you did for me those first few days and help me bring her back? At this point, I think she's my only female.

Updated Pix:



The whole dysfunctional family. BTW, do plants normally go through a cycle of standing tall vs slumping over? Every single day, when I head get home from work, Ms. A is standing straight up and perky, but when I leave in the morning she looks droopy and sad.



Ms. B in all of her gimped glory. I recently gave her a pruning so she doesn't have as many dead/curled leaves.



Those brown edges on the upper fan leaves are all within the last 2 days. Also, notice the slight drooping of the top.



Lower half of Ms. B. I pruned off a lot of the curled leaves where browning was occurring. The smallest leaves in the upper left-hand corner are typical of what I am seeing. Leaves that are tightly curled downward and into the center of the leaf and then curls downward towards the stem, just like a claw.



Ms. B. This picture makes me think that I am looking back in time to Ms. B @ 60 days. :Sigh:

PS. My plants always look better in pictures than in person.
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
Wanted you to know I've seen your note, too busy to reply fully at the mo, good to hear the pH has stabilised after an H2O2 blast. If the pH bumps up again, hit it with H2O2 again.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
IMO i think 1400 PPM may be just a bit too high for that particular strain you have, I have a nice strain that grows like a champ with 600 PPM, but burns at anything over 1200. Just a thought, if anyone can get you a good harvest Al can.


Oh and just for giggles, my latest grow started about the same time you started this thread. Done from clone and you can see the growth possible with hydro systems when there aren't any problems. Get all the basics correct and it should turn out great.

The first pic shows clones rooted and starting day 1 of veg. Second pic shows today 2 weeks into flower, the bottom 1/2 of the plants have been pruned of all bud sites, but the fan leaves stayed on.
 

Attachments

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
What should the lowest temp of my soln be? I've read lots of stuff, from 15C to 20C to 76F to 86F. Right now my soln temp is about 15C, is that okay?
Nute temps should be 15-25C. Above 25C, water loses any dissolved O2 very rapidly. Cooler is better. The cooler the res, the more O2 you can dissolve in the soln. However, cell growth is slowed at 15C and down.

I'm using a 250w HPS in a SunLeaves reflector. I would love to drop my a bit, but my plants are quite tall now and my only opinion would be to move them out from directly beneath the lights to the periphery. That's exactly what I have been doing with Ms. B and the Runt.
I can see a cooltube (and possibly a 400HPS) in your future. Moving the plants away from the lamp is a sorta-OK temporary solution. A circ fan in your room ought to be mixing the air enough to homogenise temps from top to bottom.

Man, this whole project has taken up like 10x the amount of time, effort, and money that I originally expected. Is it normally this tough the first time around or is it just me?
Everyone has troubles in their first op. I sure did! Don't feel bad, seriously. I just wish you'd been talking to me when you were merely considering building your op- I could have saved you some time & $. Now what we're doing is playing catch-up. At the beginning of this trip, you had vegged for 45days and had no roots. We've fixed that, now we're dialing it in.
If it's not nute deficiency WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?!?! I check my pH daily now so it's definitely not pH imbalance. I check nutes daily and it usually doesnt jump around too much. Can my nute meter be fucked? Do you calibrate TDS meters?!
The tip burn & curl looks like overfert. It may be due to your 250W lighting that the plants can't deal with the usual 1400ppm mix. NoDrama suggests a strain related sensitivity to nutes, but I think it could be insufficient light for the nute mix. Back it down, drop it to 800 and see what happens.

If it was nutes, then all my plants would be affected, right?
Yes and no; plants closer to the light might cope better with stronger nutes than ones further away.

BTW, do plants normally go through a cycle of standing tall vs slumping over?
Yes, they do tend to droop a little in lights off, but should perk up when lights come on.


Those brown edges on the upper fan leaves are all within the last 2 days.
Yep, drop the nute strength to 800. Wait a few days to get a new set of leaves and see how they lool.
 

aero master

Active Member
What are you thinking having them at 750ppm? If they have no roots you should be at 150/200 max. You have shocked the crap out of them from what I see. If you drop the ppm and wait you will see an improvement. BTW what ppm do you root your clones at?
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
What are you thinking having them at 750ppm? If they have no roots you should be at 150/200 max. You have shocked the crap out of them from what I see. If you drop the ppm and wait you will see an improvement. BTW what ppm do you root your clones at?

They aren't seedlings, they have a couple months of slow growth and should cope with 750 just fine.
 

Ngozer

Active Member
IMO i think 1400 PPM may be just a bit too high for that particular strain you have, I have a nice strain that grows like a champ with 600 PPM, but burns at anything over 1200. Just a thought, if anyone can get you a good harvest Al can.
Wow, now that you mention it I do sort of remembering that Ms. B's time in the limelight was with lower PPM levels. I really hope you've just fixed my problem! :clap:

Oh and just for giggles, my latest grow started about the same time you started this thread. Done from clone and you can see the growth possible with hydro systems when there aren't any problems. Get all the basics correct and it should turn out great.
That dream is the only thing that has kept me from giving up. And now, thanks to you and Al, I know that it'll come soon enough.
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
What are you thinking having them at 750ppm? If they have no roots you should be at 150/200 max. You have shocked the crap out of them from what I see. If you drop the ppm and wait you will see an improvement. BTW what ppm do you root your clones at?
You seem to have missed about 11 pages of this thread. He's recovered the root systems. :roll:

If a plant has no roots, it can't make use of nutes at all, so clones which have no roots should get no nutes, only water.

What were you thinking?
 

Ngozer

Active Member
Nute temps should be 15-25C. Above 25C, water loses any dissolved O2 very rapidly. Cooler is better. The cooler the res, the more O2 you can dissolve in the soln. However, cell growth is slowed at 15C and down.
Okay, but once in awhile it drops below 15 to 14. Does it just slow down the growth or will it shock the roots and stunt growth?

I can see a cooltube (and possibly a 400HPS) in your future. Moving the plants away from the lamp is a sorta-OK temporary solution. A circ fan in your room ought to be mixing the air enough to homogenise temps from top to bottom.
Do you think a cooltube will be better than the current reflector I am using? I actually had the bake-a-round first and then got the SunLeaves one thinking that it would be better. My concern was that I had nothing to reflect the light down so I'd be wasting light.

Is the 250w actually a bottleneck for just 6 plants? My grow area is quite small (only about 2x4 feet). I was actually thinking of upping my light, but I was unsure of the heat issues. How much hotter will a 400w be versus a 250w? What I would really like is a 600w, but I think I need to work on not being over-ambitious.

I do have a fan blowing around the air in the cab. It's not a standard oscillating fan, it's a 2' vertical fan. It's seems to be strong enough. It blows around the leaves quite a bit.

Everyone has troubles in their first op. I sure did! Don't feel bad, seriously. I just wish you'd been talking to me when you were merely considering building your op- I could have saved you some time & $. Now what we're doing is playing catch-up. At the beginning of this trip, you had vegged for 45days and had no roots. We've fixed that, now we're dialing it in.
Bro, I don't think a day goes by where I don't wish I would have done things differently. I need to just accept my mistakes right now and focus on my current problems. Here's a picture of my cabinet just to let you know what I'm working with.



The tip burn & curl looks like overfert. It may be due to your 250W lighting that the plants can't deal with the usual 1400ppm mix. NoDrama suggests a strain related sensitivity to nutes, but I think it could be insufficient light for the nute mix. Back it down, drop it to 800 and see what happens.

Yep, drop the nute strength to 800. Wait a few days to get a new set of leaves and see how they lool.
Okay. I will report back in a few days. I was wondering though if I was feeding my plants the right ratio. I have been using the Fox Farm schedule and sticking with the week 4 ratio which is 1:1. Do you think that could be a problem?

Here's the schedule:


And finally, I need some advice as to what to do next. Ms. A is now touching the glass of the light. There are no signs of sex on her that I can tell of. What would you guys recommend?
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
Okay, but once in awhile it drops below 15 to 14. Does it just slow down the growth or will it shock the roots and stunt growth?
It'll slow them down a bit, no lasting damage. You'd have to have a hard freeze to really hurt 'em.

Do you think a cooltube will be better than the current reflector I am using? I actually had the bake-a-round first and then got the SunLeaves one thinking that it would be better. My concern was that I had nothing to reflect the light down so I'd be wasting light.
I don't know what a SunLeaves reflector is, but if it is fully enclosed, with inlet & exhaust ducts, it should be fine.
Is the 250w actually a bottleneck for just 6 plants? My grow area is quite small (only about 2x4 feet). I was actually thinking of upping my light, but I was unsure of the heat issues. How much hotter will a 400w be versus a 250w? What I would really like is a 600w, but I think I need to work on not being over-ambitious.
A 2x4' space would be best served by a 400. yes, a 400 will make more heat than 250, but if the ballast is outside the room airmass and there is a cooltube or effective enclosed air cooled ref over the lamp, it'll be not much different.

I do have a fan blowing around the air in the cab. It's not a standard oscillating fan, it's a 2' vertical fan. It's seems to be strong enough. It blows around the leaves quite a bit.
Sounds fine. Circ fans just need to make every leaf in the room flutter about 1x/min.

Bro, I don't think a day goes by where I don't wish I would have done things differently. I need to just accept my mistakes right now and focus on my current problems.
yep, gotta work with what you got going at the moment, can't stress about wotifs.

Here's a picture of my cabinet just to let you know what I'm working with.

Ah, OK. Is the reflector enclosed and air cooled?

I was wondering though if I was feeding my plants the right ratio. I have been using the Fox Farm schedule and sticking with the week 4 ratio which is 1:1. Do you think that could be a problem?

ffff.....fff....FoxFarm... are those organic nutes? If so, H2O2 will react with the organic compounds of the nutrient and break them down. At the same time, the H2O2 is being broken down into H, O & H2O, before it has a chance to attack pathogens in the system. Thus, H2O2 is incompatible with organic nutes.

I can't fucking believe I have failed to ask you what sort of nutes you 're using *smacking forehead*.

You need a good quality inorganic nutrient, preferably a 2-part- simple to use. canna, GH, AN, etc etc.

*sigh*



And finally, I need some advice as to what to do next. Ms. A is now touching the glass of the light. There are no signs of sex on her that I can tell of. What would you guys recommend?
Prune it back. It'll bush out a bit, but that'll be good for future use as a mum.
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
Yep, the tip will make a very fine clone. Shorten the plant by about half its height. Take off the growing tips on the branches; this will force growth to divide and thicken.
 

Ngozer

Active Member
Yep, the tip will make a very fine clone. Shorten the plant by about half its height. Take off the growing tips on the branches; this will force growth to divide and thicken.
You mean the growing tips of the remaining branches? Sorry I don't have time for a full response.

Can my nutes be used instead of getting new stuff? How do others use organic nutes?

Thanks.
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
Yes, nip off the growing tips of the remaining branches.

Pathogen control in organic hydro grows is done with enzymatic agents and competing bacteria. While I'm quite sure it works in theory, quite a number of folx using that tack have come to me with root probs, which we rather quickly sort out with a change to standard, inorganic based nutes and a schedule of dosing with H2O2.
 

Ngozer

Active Member
Update: This is gonna be a quick one.

I finally got all my supplies together and am going to start the cloning process. Al, I followed your directions on your cloning thread and bleached my workspace and am letting it dry overnight.

I've read about a lot of DIY bubble cloners and thought it looked pretty cool so I built one to try this time. I got some clonex, a scapel and some ethyl alcohol to disinfect the blade between cuttings. Am I missing anything?

One thing I am unsure of regarding the bubbler is the amount of bubbles required to be successful. Does it have to be a shitload? I have a single-outlet 3.2L air pump split to two 10" airstones. Do you think that's enough?

This is like the worse time for me to have to clone Ms. A because I am so busy with work and school, but I don't think I can hold out to much longer. Ms. A has about 2 inches of her top growth bent flush against the light glass. Actually, she doesn't seem to mind a bit and is not showing any signs of distress, but I'd rather give her what she needs... space.

I found a thread on some other site about this Australian Blue stuff. People on it were saying that this is a good outdoor, but not so good indoor because it grows huge. Can we use that to our benefit, if we just flower small clones directly after rooting? I have been wondering how to tailor my op to imitate yours, but I am not sure how it'll work since I don't have room for huge clones (i.e., right now my stems only look about 5 - 6 inches tall). Also, my clonebox is fairly short @ 13 inches.

I am going to pull the Runt tomorrow. I'm pretty sure he's a dude so he's going to be my scapelling test dummy. I am 99% sure Ms. B is a lady and am getting more and more confident that Ms. A is too. Ms. B looks pretty bad, but I am confident that she can recover.

After the cutting tomorrow, I am planning on switching to my new nutrients, FloraNova. Any advice on PPM levels? Right now, the nute soln with FF nutes is @ 750 PPM. I feel as though Ms. A is hungry for more. I am not so sure that this strain is PPM shy. There was no mention of it on that AB thread I mentioned earlier. I will have the FN soln @ the same PPM and then move up to 75% after a few days. Do you think I should ever go full str? It says some ricoculously high PPM like 1800. As a newb, that sounds like a high ass number.

I will update as soon as possible with pictures.

bongsmiliePeace:peace:
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
I've read about a lot of DIY bubble cloners and thought it looked pretty cool so I built one to try this time. I got some clonex, a scapel and some ethyl alcohol to disinfect the blade between cuttings. Am I missing anything?
Yes, you need to get a big packet of 'Good Luck' from any passing leprechaun. You need plenty of it to get a bubble/aerocloner to work. I've had ordinary success with such methods in the past.

One thing I am unsure of regarding the bubbler is the amount of bubbles required to be successful. Does it have to be a shitload? I have a single-outlet 3.2L air pump split to two 10" airstones. Do you think that's enough?
hopefully.

I found a thread on some other site about this Australian Blue stuff. People on it were saying that this is a good outdoor, but not so good indoor because it grows huge. Can we use that to our benefit, if we just flower small clones directly after rooting?
The finishing height of any cannabis plant will be determined by the growing method. I've never found a plant that ever got out of control in a SoG op. Flowering clones immediately after setting root will sort out the finishing height.

After the cutting tomorrow, I am planning on switching to my new nutrients, FloraNova.
Sales literature on FloraNova indicates it has organic components.

http://www.generalhydroponics.com/genhydro_US/floranova.html

FLORANOVA™ SERIES
Liquid Super Concentrated Nutrient

• The marriage of hydroponic & organic gardening methods.
• Extremely easy to use.
• Outstanding for all plant types.
• Superb for Hydroponic, Soil-less, and Soil Cultivation.
• Super Concentrated and pH Stabilized.
• Optimum nutrient absorption is aided by Natural Humic Extracts.


FloraNova represents a breakthrough in fertilizer technology, as it gives users both the strength of a dry concentrate and the ease of a liquid. This unique formulation of highly purified minerals and natural additives combines the benefits of hydroponic as well as organic gardening methods.
FloraNova will not be compatible with H2O2 due to the organic stuff in it.

Try something else.
 

Ngozer

Active Member
Sales literature on FloraNova indicates it has organic components.

GENERAL HYDROPONICS



FloraNova will not be compatible with H2O2 due to the organic stuff in it.

Try something else.
Are you kidding me?! That's bullshit. I specifically asked the hydro guy for a good quality 2 part inorganic fert. Good thing it's not opened. I don't know why this is turning out a lot more difficult than I had thought. The hydro shop is a distributor of hydrofarm.com so anything on they sell I should be able to get. I will return the FN and grab something else. Right now, I'm looking at the Botanicare Power Series line. I looked it up and could not find any mention of organicness so hopefully it will do the trick.
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
Are you kidding me?! That's bullshit.
Sorry, man.
I specifically asked the hydro guy for a good quality 2 part inorganic fert.
Doesn't seem like that's what you got.
Right now, I'm looking at the Botanicare Power Series line. I looked it up and could not find any mention of organicness so hopefully it will do the trick.
I found this as a top result on Goog when searching for Botanicare Power Series::

Q: What is the difference between Power Series and the Pure Blend Pro line?
A: Pure Blend Pro is organic and Power Series is bio-organic with a combination of organic additives and inorganic salts.
I'd stay right away from Botanicare. Try GH, AN or Canna.
 

Ngozer

Active Member
Sorry, man. Doesn't seem like that's what you got. I found this as a top result on Goog when searching for Botanicare Power Series::



I'd stay right away from Botanicare. Try GH, AN or Canna.
Jesus, this is a pain in the ass. Well I went to the hydro shop to talk with the guy. I asked him about getting a 100% synthetic 2 - part fertilizer. He told me that there are no 2 part fertilizers that are 100% inorganic, except for the dry-mix kind. He recommended that I stick with GH and go with their 3 part get-up. When I asked about a 2 part AN nute he told me that the only ones that are two part would in fact be two part times two. I just ended up getting the 3 part GH "Flora" series.

I did the cloning. Let's see if luck is on my side :chuckle: Will update again soon.
 
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