9/11 debunking accomplished

CrackerJax

New Member
Okay, I posted this up on the 9/11 thread and it stumped everybody. No one could answer the questions to any satisfaction so I am throwing it out there to the general Forum. Are you prone to believe fantastic stories? If so, then you probably believe 9/11 was an inside job!! :clap:.

So have at it and answer these VERY SIMPLE questions. Any one of these questions cast a serious doubt on an inside job, so you have to get them all.... :wink: Conspiracies are hard work!!! :lol:



15 questions 9/11 ‘truthers’ now need to answer



One of the standard claims of 9/11 “truthers” is that they are merely sceptical individuals with a healthy and understandable desire not to swallow US government propaganda at face value. The mantra “just asking questions” allows them to pose as wary and intelligent souls too accustomed to the concept of duplicity in high places to accept the “official story” of Al Qaeda’s role in planning and perpetrating the largest mass casualty terrorist attack in modern history. It also allows them to adopt an indignant tone when dealing with their critics, and to conflate attempts by debunkers to undermine their claims with both unquestioning acceptance of an “official cover-up” (irrespective of whether the debunker happens to be a supporter of the current US administration or not) and a systematic effort to deprive them of freedom of speech. It goes without saying that in the process the “truthers” set up two straw-men for them to knock down, but then they’re not very good at dealing with tougher critics.
The “just asking questions” approach has three further advantages to those of a paranoid mindset and a less than scrupulous approach to evidence and facts (if George Orwell were alive today, he’d appreciate the irony of serial disinformation merchants like Dylan Avery and David Ray Griffin posing as members of a “truth movement”, given their fast and loose approach to the historical record and scientific fact). Firstly, conspiracy theorists know that mud sticks: if you can make an accusation against an individual or group through innuendo and sly hints the latter has the hard task of proving the calumnies against them to be false. Film buffs will no doubt recall George C. Scott’s performance as the malevolent prosecutor in Anatomy of a Murder, and his repeated question to the defendant Ben Gazzara: “Exactly when did you stop beating your wife?” This approach sums up “truther debating tactics nicely.
Secondly, the claim that one is “just asking questions” is liberating, as it frees the truther of the obligation of actually constructing a coherent alternative theory - based on the evidence at hand - which is more convincing than the “official theory”. Why worry if the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolitions or not? Why worry if the hijackers were patsies or ghosts? Why worry if the Pentagon was hit by a missile or a jumbo jet piloted by remote control? Why worry if the passengers of the four planes are alive or not? With one or two exceptions (notably Michael Ruppert), 9/11 conspiracy theorists and their supporters do not actually outline a scenario which explains how and why the US government (in cahoots with the Israelis, or the military-industrial complex, or whoever else) slaughtered nearly 3,000 people - most of whom were American citizens - in a co-ordinated series of attacks which were then blamed on Arab Islamist terrorists. Most truthers lack sufficient moral courage to produce a real theory about 9/11 being an ‘inside job’ which combines motive with method and which can be tested against the evidence. Deep down, they know that once they venture into specific claims their case will be torn to shreds, and they will be exposed as ignorant frauds.
Thirdly, it makes the task of a truther an easy one: all he or she (there seem to be few female truthers around, which hopefully means that they won’t reproduce) has to do is google to get the appropriate “story” from Prison Planet, 9/11 Blogger, What Really Happened or a similar website. Hey presto, they get what they want: “The FBI said there were no phone calls from AA77!”; “4,000 Jews didn’t turn up to work at the WTC on 9/11!”; “Silverstein ordered the demolition of WTC7!” And so on and so forth.
Any genuine sceptic dealing with truthers - whether online or in the flesh - then has to (1) work out what the hell his or her interlocutor is talking about, and (2) ask themselves how exactly they made this claim, and if it has any substance. Anyone lacking either patience or detailed knowledge of the events of 11th September 2001 may be tempted to give them the benefit of the doubt. Debunkers are left with the time-consuming task of researching the historical background, and trying to assemble the relevant technical and scientific information, before they can actually verify the facts for themselves. In short, the truther can throw out a red herring or an outright distortion in a matter of minutes, leaving it up to other net users to take the time and trouble to verify their origin and accuracy.
Fortunately, yeoman work has been done by scores of individuals to actually put the record straight. Pat and James from Screw Loose Change, Mark Roberts, 9/11 Myths, Debunking 9/11 and 9/11 Guide in particular provide a valuable resource. The James Randi forum is particularly useful in that it provides commentators with specialist knowledge - military veterans, pilots, flight engineers, physicists, architects, forensic experts etc - with a platform to expose the anti-scientific claptrap and historical illiteracy of the truthers. This is the main reason why the JREF and its commentators arouse such hatred from the 9/11 conspiracy ghouls.
It’s time to turn the tables on the truthers. Rather than accept a situation in which the nutjobs and kooks who subscribe to 9/11 conspiracies can make their accusations willy-nilly, it is high time that their critics decided that they can “just ask questions” too. This particular debunker has decided that maybe, just for once, the onus for actually demonstrating the validity of their theories on the basis of systematic and critical analysis of the evidence belongs to the truthers, not to those who wish to expose their fallacies. As someone whose academic bias is based on history, I would like to pose the following challenge to the conspiracy-mongers:
Let’s take your thesis (that 9/11 was an inside job perpetrated by the Bush administration, and covered up by a coalition of US government agencies, allied powers, big business and the media) as read. The following questions point to logical and factual gaps within that thesis. It is now up to you to answer these questions and explain why your theories are still valid. For your answers to be credible, they need to be detailed and based on verifiable evidence. No suppositions, no speculation, no unsupported assertions, just the facts. Stop “asking questions”, and provide answers. These fifteen initial questions will do for starters.

(1) On 9th September 2001 Ahmed Shah Massoud, the most effective military commander of the anti-Taliban coalition (the Northern Alliance, or NA) was killed by two Arab suicide bombers posing as journalists. The assassination of Massoud had taken months to plan, and the latter had received the bogus request for an ‘interview’ in May 2001 (See Steve Coll, Ghost Wars, pp.574-576; Jason Burke, Al Qaeda, p.197; Daniel Byman, Deadly Connections, p.210. Two days before 9/11, Al Qaeda killed the Taliban’s main enemy, who had also played a pivotal role in keeping the NA factions together, and who would have been the obvious figure to liase with if the Americans had decided to effect regime change in Afghanistan. If Al Qaeda were not responsible for 9/11, then why was Ahmed Shah Massoud’s assassination so well co-ordinated with the attacks on New York and Washington?
(2) Conversely, prior to 9/11, the US government had minimal contacts with Massoud and other Northern Alliance figures, much to the latter’s frustration (See Coll, passim). If 9/11 was a “false flag” operation intended to justify a pre-determined plan to invade Afghanistan, then why didn’t the CIA and other US government agencies do more to facilitate ties with the NA?
(3) Just before 9/11, Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and other key Al Qaeda personnel left their quarters in Kandahar to hide in Tora Bora (Lawrence Wright, The Looming Tower, pp.356-35:cool:. Why did bin Laden and al-Zawahiri suddenly leave their known locations and go to ground, if they were not anticipating imminent military action by the USA?
(4) In the days following 9/11, the Bush administration asked the Joint Chiefs of Staff for a plan to invade Afghanistan. The JCS had to admit that they had no contingency plan for such an invasion, and in the weeks preceding Operation Enduring Freedom the CIA and the Department of Defense were obliged to improvise a plan of attack against the Taliban and its Al Qaeda allies (Benjamin Lambeth, Air Power Against Terror; Bob Woodward, Bush At War). If 9/11 had been an inside job, and if there was a long-standing intention by Bush and his advisors to invade Afghanistan and overthrow the Taliban, then why did they have to scrabble around for a workable plan? Why was one not prepared beforehand?
(5) We are being asked by the truthers to believe that the 19 hijackers were “patsies”, or non-existent. If that was the case, and if the intention of the real plotters in the US government was to justify military interventions to overthrow hostile regimes in the Middle East, why were 15 out of the 19 ‘bogus’ Al Qaeda terrorists given Saudi nationality? The other four hijackers consisted of an Egyptian, a Lebanese and two citizens of the UAE. We are being asked to believe that the conspirators behind 9/11 decided that they would make the hijackers citizens of allies of the USA, not enemies. Why were they not given Iraqi, Iranian or Syrian identity? Why were they not given forged links with terrorist groups (such as the Abu Nidal Organisation, the PLFP-GC or Hizbollah) with closer links to Tehran, Damascus and above all Baghdad? If we are supposed to believe that the Israelis had a hand in 9/11, then why were none of the patsies Palestinians linked to Fatah or Hamas? What kind of conspirator sets up a plot to frame an innocent party without forging the evidence to implicate the latter?
(6) Following on from this point, if the identities and the nationalities of the hijackers were faked, then why did the Saudi, Egyptian, Lebanese and UAE governments accept that citizens from their own countries were involved? What incentive did Saudi Arabia have for accepting that 15 of its own people had committed mass murder on US soil? Why would the Saudis co-operate in a plot which would blacken their country’s name, benefit Israeli interests in the Middle East, provide the pretext for the overthrow of one fundamentalist Sunni regime in Afghanistan, and contribute to the destruction of a Sunni Arab dictatorship in Iraq long seen by the Saudi royal family as a bulwark against Iran?
(7) Afghanistan is a landlocked country (truthers may need to be reminded of this fact), and any invasion is logistically impossible without the support of its neighbours. Prior to 9/11, Pakistan was a staunch ally of Taliban-ruled Afghanistan (see Ahmed Rashid, Taliban, passim). The former Soviet Central Asian states of Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan backed the NA, but were also wary of antagonising their former imperial master, Russia. Pre-September 2001 these states would not have contemplated admitting any US or Western military presence on their soil. Although Russian President Vladimir Putin backed the USA’s invasion of Afghanistan in October 2001, it took the Americans considerable effort to persuade him to permit the US and NATO forces to use bases on Uzbek and Tajik territory as part of Operation Enduring Freedom. It also took time and considerable pressure to force General Pervez Musharraf to abandon the Taliban - despite resistance from the military and ISI. Given the geo-political realities of Central Asia in mid-2001, there were no guarantees of any host nation support for any attack on Afghanistan. Assuming againt that 9/11 was an inside job, how could the US government realistically presume that the Russians and Pakistanis would actually permit the USA to effect regime change against the Taliban?
(:cool: Assuming that claims of Mossad complicity in 9/11 (”dancing Israelis”, etc.) are correct, can the truthers suggest a feasible motive for the Israeli government conniving in an act of mass murder on US soil? Since 1967, the mainstay of Israel’s security and survival has been its alignment with the USA, and the military assistance it has received as a result. This relationship is based on a bipartisan political consensus (both the Republican and Democratic parties are predominantly pro-Israeli) and considerable public support in the USA. Why engage in a “false flag” attack against the civilian population of an ally, when you have so little to gain and so much to lose if your responsibility is ever disclosed?
(9) Following on from this, assuming that the “five dancing Israelis” story isn’t a complete fabrication, what kind of secret service recruits undercover agents who compromise themselves by acting so ostentatiously in public? And if the five arrested Israelis were part of a conspiracy organised with the US government, then why did the FBI hold them in custody for over two months, instead of releasing them on the quiet a matter of hours and days after their apprehension?
(10) If the WTC towers in New York City were destroyed by controlled demolitions rigged by US government agencies, then why were the fake terrorist attacks used to cover up these controlled demolitions so insanely convoluted? Why concoct a scenario involving the hijacking of planes which are then crashed into tower blocks (involving complicated planning involving remote controlled flights timed with explosives detonated in the towers, which allow plenty of opportunities for gliches and technical errors)? Why not use a more simple means, such as a truck bomb?
(11) Assuming that Niaz Naik’s account of his alleged meeting with retired US officials in July 2001 is true, then where were the 17,000 Russian troops who were supposedly ready to invade Afghanistan when it came to the commencement of military operations in October 2001? And if the main motive behind the invasion was to build a natural gas pipe-line which would be under US control, then why was no attempt ever made to build one once the Taliban were overthrown?
(12) We are being asked by the conspiracy theorists to assume that NORAD was stood down on the morning of 11th September 2001 so as to enable the success of the attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon. NORAD is a combined command, not a purely American one - it has a binational staff drawn from the US military and the Canadian Forces (CF). We are either supposed to believe that the CF personnel assigned to NORAD were too stupid to notice anything amiss in their headquarters - and query it - or that the Canadian government and the CF were complicit in 9/11. Which of these scenarios is true?
(13) If Al Qaeda were set-up for the 11th September attacks, then why have its leaders and spokesmen repeatedly affirmed their responsibility for - and pride in - these attacks (see here, here, here and here for examples)? Why are we supposed to believe that repeated video pronouncements by bin Laden and Zawahiri are fake, while just one written statement allegedly from bin Laden denying responsibility - which was handed by courier to al-Jazeera without any confirmation of its origins - was genuine?
(14) If the hijacking and crashing of four passenger planes was engineered by the US government, then why did UA93 crash into an empty field in Pennsylvania? Why not crash it into a target which would add to the death toll on 9/11, and further inflame US public attitudes and popular demands for revenge against the supposed perpetrators?
(15) Finally, if the US government is institutionally ruthless enough to organise the massacre of thousands of its own citizens in a series of “false flag” attacks, then why is it too squeamish to arrange for the deaths of the supposed “truth-seekers” (David Griffin, Kevin Barrett, Steven Jones, Richard Gage, the Loose Change team, Alex Jones, etc.) who have exposed their complicity in one of the most heinous crimes a government can commit against its own people? Why are these people still alive and well, and in a position to publicise their “theories” on radio, television, in print and online?
__________________
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Ill try to answer a few of them, but not all.

2. It was a plan to Invade IRAQ, not Afghanistan.

3. They probably left before then at some time also right? could it not be coincidence?

5. According to the Gubbermint they DID have ties to the Taliban AND to HUSSEIN.

7,8,9 you assume too much.

10. how else are you going to drum up opposition for your cause? A truck bomb had already been tried, no one would believe it happened a second time and got through all that new security that was implemented to ensure that would never happen again.

12. Military games, everyone thought it was all part of the training.

13. only 1 video of Bin Laden taking responsibility that I am aware of, and they made a good claim to disprove his identity, Im not saying for sure it isn't him, as I do not know him personally.

14. Umm the passengers actually grew a set of Balls and tried to stop them?

15. You gotta have the big voices out there to give people the "Tin Foil hatter and Nut Job" labels. They serve their purpose, they make up just as much shit as anyone else does. No one involved with hyping people up and getting them motivated is going to tell it like it is, they must embellish things to serve their agenda. No different than Politicians/Evangelists/your neighbor.
 

what... huh?

Active Member
For sport I will take it on... though I firmly disbelieve that it was an inside job.

1. He was an enemy of the Taliban. They had been trying to kill him for years... he was NOT killed on 9/11. We did not go into Afghanistan for MONTHS after 9/11 and the NA showed no signs of falling apart due to his death. It was utterly pointless, and with the tremendous amount of "coincidences" required for WTC 1 2 and 7 to collapse as they did, it is much easier to believe THAT was coincidence.

2. Because there was no need. The NA's goals did not change because we became involved. Their goals were still achieved, at no additional cost, and without scrutiny for the US "interfering" as usual. They were damned happy to have us. It was the cheapest way to do it.

3. If their locations were known prior to 9/11 we would have turned that location to swiss cheese. Even Clinton lobbed cruise missiles at UBL. As memory serves... we thought he WAS there... in order for the Taliban to POSSIBLY comply with our order to turn him over. It wasnt until the impending attack that UBL went west.

4. This theory rests on the notion that our intelligence agencies were unaware of AQ's ties to the Afgan authority, as they were already wanted for the bombing of the US embassy, the USS Cole, and the first WTC bombing which would have succeeded had the van been parked a few hundred feet from where it was. The JCS has a contingency to bomb the shit out of ALL threats, which AQ and the Afghan authority already had demonstrated. You expect me to believe they had a plan to invade Iraq, which was no threat... but had "overlooked" Afghanistan?

5. Tying the hijackers to an ally gave the flexibility to hunt down the evil doers wherever they were... except Saudi.

6. Because EACH of them had a vested interest in removing the powers removed, and being in our pockets.

7. Umm... because 9/11 happened. "You are either with us... or against us." The most fierce war machine ever to walk the earth began grinding gears... and you don't want to be impeding us defending ourselves. Of course they would be complicit.

8. The plot was AMERICA taking American lives. Do you think if the Israelis were going to commit a false flag op against their people which warranted the utter annihilation of palestine... our black ops would not help them remove this blight? Saddam Hussein wrote personal checks to families of suicide bombers... the regimes fall was a HUGE middle finger to that ideology.

9. They looked like Arabs, and were dressed the part. ALL of the callers said they were Arabs. Sounds like a setup to me. You also ASSUME they were held for 2 months. The FBI has not acknowledged their capture OR release.

10. Because there was no other way to conceivably do it. Truck bomb was out of the question after 93. WTC garage was a fortress.

11. It is too unstable to build a pipeline. You can't even drive supplies from point a to b without an IED blowing the armor plating into your legs.

12. This understanding of NORADs operations is false... while it is a "joint effort" in a coordinative capacity... no nation is given control of US defense except the US.

13. Only one tape exists where UBL claims responsibility (in a language you don't speak), and the dude looks nothing like UBL.

14. Sometimes remote control planes crash. Sometimes there are just big holes without planes in them.

15. Because they don't have anything concrete. Those who did... you don't know their names.
 

natrone23

Well-Known Member
Massouds death was huge blow to the Na, He was their "patton". The Na would have been fractured and most likely destroyed if we hadn't backed them up with air power and special forces operators.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
But al queda doesn't exist! Isn't that the latest mantra? Now your all giving al queda massive amounts of credit...which is it...inept desert ppl or masterminds with all sorts of coincidences.

Funny how coincidences and conspiracies seem to run together.

No Drama, I think YOU assume too much. Isn't that why I'm here now having to make these ridiculous threads...:lol:
 
I still believe that the US millitary are the ones that shot down the last plane.. The whole story about it crasing into a feild was made up by the gvt. You can tell by the very small amount of video footage from the "crash site" that there was not a plane crash there.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
If they are so ridiculous then why do you even post? Besides its copied from a debunking website anyway, so I guess its not like a lot of work for you or anything. Im not the one assuming, you said you assumed things in all 3 of those posts. If you are just going to assume things then not much point in arguing about it since you can just "Assume" everything I say away.

What...huh doesn't even believe in the "Inside Job" theory yet here he is making his argument only because he sees the disinformation your trying to put out. C'mon bro, you haven't debunked anything, your still in the thick of the argument just like the rest of us. This debate will never end until the whole truth about everything comes out, Im not holding my breath.
 

Dfunk

Well-Known Member
I have a question if I may...How WTC7 fall so fast? To my understanding it wasn't hit by anything yet still fell at freefall speed? Is the video fake? In my opinion this is the most suspect thing in the whole event. I believe that someone ALLOWED this to happen.
 

what... huh?

Active Member
But al queda doesn't exist! Isn't that the latest mantra? Now your all giving al queda massive amounts of credit...which is it...inept desert ppl or masterminds with all sorts of coincidences.
Firstly it is dishonest to assume that ANY theory posited is immediately adopted by all.

Second according to CT, AQ "didn't exist" by name. We gave that name to the small ragtag group of mujihadeen fighters following UBL. Probably because we trained the Mujihadeen in guerrilla tactics... we needed a NEW group that had no ties to us.

Funny how coincidences and conspiracies seem to run together.
Again, the amount of coincidences necessary for the "deniers" version of events is staggering.

NoDrama said:
What...huh doesn't even believe in the "Inside Job" theory yet here he is making his argument only because he sees the disinformation your trying to put out.
That isn't accurate. I engage as an exercise. It keeps me from being polarized on issues. It really is just for sport. Questions 5, 6, and 7 I quoted in the other thread, and the diatribe before the questions are strong... and my attempt to address them is weak. I think it is important to try and see the other side of things... even if you know you are right. This is a rare opportunity to do that.

For me this is just mental masturbation.



*I will say it is a lot more fun not doing any research whatsoever and just posting conjecture. It is fast, loose, and easy. That whole post probably took 10 minutes. Sometimes researching on the other side takes upwards of 4 hours pouring through scientific papers looking for explanations to a single question... because unlike many "truthers" I am not an expert at everything.
 

The Warlord

Well-Known Member
Cracker, Why you gotta poke the nutjobs with a sharp stick? I decided to just leave them alone and hope they get psycological help at some point.
 
i dont like how people place everyone who believes 9/11 was an inside job into ONE category... every single last person on earth is in there OWN category...

Now that thats cleared up...

how do 3 buildings ( Both towers and WTC 7) crumble to the ground like they were made of wood? .... understatment- if they had been made of wood they wouldnt have even did that.... i mean you guys actually watch videos on this shit or you just like to look at words??....
 

The Warlord

Well-Known Member
Remember fire can not melt steel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dude, Fire can melt steel. You throw a piece of steel in a really hot campfire your gonna get a melted piece of slag. Ever seen anyone use a cutting torch? Fire and oxygen melts the hell outta steel. Pour thousands of gallons of burning jet fuel on to a steel beam and it's liquid metal right fucking now. People that can't grasp this concept are not firing on all cylinders.
 

Microdizzey

Well-Known Member
I still believe that the US millitary are the ones that shot down the last plane.. The whole story about it crasing into a feild was made up by the gvt. You can tell by the very small amount of video footage from the "crash site" that there was not a plane crash there.
I remember seeing that on the news for a few days after 9/11. At that time I was very young, but still found it suspicious that there was no plane wreckage around the area, just a big hole. A bunch of papers and stuff were laying around. I remember thinking, "Where's the airplane?".

Their excuse was that the plane crashed so hard, that it just disintegrated into nothing. I found that very hard to believe, there should have been at least some parts of the airliner...

The pentagon was another interesting story. I couldn't see how an airliner would make such a small hole in the side of the building. But eh... I don't know the physics for this stuff. Wouldn't the airliners explode upon impact, with all that fuel inside it? I would imagine there would have been much greater devastation to the building, but again I don't know the physics.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
I don't know physics very well (and know even less about this conspiracy), but I think this still falls under E=MC^2.

The impact would have so much force that almost everything would push into the building because of the speed and momentum blow it out the other side.

Similar to a bullet leaving a small hole on impact and creating a crater on the other side.
 

Mindmelted

Well-Known Member
Dude, Fire can melt steel. You throw a piece of steel in a really hot campfire your gonna get a melted piece of slag. Ever seen anyone use a cutting torch? Fire and oxygen melts the hell outta steel. Pour thousands of gallons of burning jet fuel on to a steel beam and it's liquid metal right fucking now. People that can't grasp this concept are not firing on all cylinders.
Warlord are you that dense you can not tell a jab when you read one.
I was quoting dumbass rosie
 

Big P

Well-Known Member
lol you got all the fools all in one thread. hurry now hurry man lead them off a cliff:mrgreen: they will follow screaming and shouting if you tell them evil Dr. Cheny is down there priming his flux capacitor to destroy the world so he can feed off the dead babies


my god I didnt really think you guys actually believed that 9/11 was an inside job.


I thought most of you just hated bush so much that this was a delusionary way for you to deal with it


your the kind of people I would hustle into my slaves, if I was into that sort of thing.

same kind of people who are so easily inducted into fringe cults, when all the while they take your money and sleep with your wives

fix your brains. or you will be duped and taken advantage of for the rest of your lives.


its good to question everything, thats fine. but dont be an ass


i always thought everyone was pretty much the same inteligence just that thier education or thier expiriances made them not as smart

but im starting to change my mind over the years

I guess brains are like dicks maybe some have big ones and some have little ones



do you guys think thats true?

I always thought pretty much as long as you are a normal human you should be about as smart as everyone else. but i have met some super dumb people over my life and im starting to question my own theory now

in all seriousness really. wtf?
 

Mindmelted

Well-Known Member
Sorry mate, Thought you were serious. Now that you mention it i do remember rosie o' lesbian saying that.
No problem mate.Yep fat ass rosie said fire can not melt steel.Now that is a dumbass american for ya.I am american and it makes me sick.
 
my friends.. fire can melt steel, but, can it melt it in a way that it would all crumble at one specific moment onto itself, and then finally, every last piece (almost) vanish into a dust cloud and the whole giant structure now sits in its own Footprint?

Ive never seen something like that, except for in a controlled demolition...


also, still YET to see ANYONE explain bulding 7....................................................................................................................................................... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5akpnIFK-RM
 
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