A Completely Free Society, Rich in Resources with an Educated Population

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PadawanBater

Guest
For a better society, I would say remove nearly all of the Federal Government, leaving only enough to protect the country from foreign invaders. I would leave the majority of power in the hands of the States, or perhaps in an even smaller grouping. I feel like the closer the government is to the people, the happier they will be. Because the Federal Government tries to please everyone, it cuts a medium line through society. The poorest feel they aren't getting enough, the richest feel they are being taken from too much, the liberals feel things are too restrictive, the conservatives feel things aren't restrictive enough, yadda yadda ya. The point should be obvious. We have all kinds of people in America in wide varieties and beliefs.If you make 1 government try to please 350 million people, you can be damn sure that a good portion of those people are left unsatisfied. So bring the the Government down to a local level, and I think you will see more satisfaction within and without Government.

Two questions, 1. what would a foreign policy in a government like this look like? and 2. what would you do in the instance of local governments (I'd assume state governments) developing tensions over whatever reasons? If there were no higher authority like the federal government, what would stop them from erupting into a civil war type conflict?

I believe to remove some of the disparity of Capitalism, we should remove our Money based on Debt system. We should remove the ability to make money without labor. I believe money should not represent anything other than labor. If you don't labor, you make no money. Quite simple really.

What is "labor" exactly?

I also believe taxation on a man's labor, or products of labor is wrong. The only government taxation that I can get behind is Land Taxation. Because land is not a product of our labors, and belongs to all. If a man wants private property, then he can have it as long as he can pay "rent" to society for it. (This idea originates mainly with Georgism-- look it up)

Who do you pay this to? Local state governments the land you're "renting" is in? On the surface land taxation seems to be a little sketchy to me, I haven't given it very much thought, but it essentially would mean that even if you wanted to get away from everything it would be impossible because you would still have to pay a tax on the land you occupy, so you would never be 100% "free", in that sense.

I believe that all children living within the borders of a government, should pay no taxes, but receive most of the benefits of a taxpaying citizen. At 18, I believe all children should receive a thorough education on the government, how it works, where the power comes from, and what their obligations would be to be part of society. Then give them a social contract, which they will sign if they want to be a part of society and under it's laws. If they don't want to be a part of society and follow it's rules, then send them on their merry way out of that government's borders. Such a method would remove any excuse of saying "I had to no choice! I didn't choose to be a part of this!"

I think I'd opt for improving the current education system so that students grow up understanding exactly how everything works. I don't think we need any kind of contract to justifiably enforce the laws of the land. I think living here is enough, if you live here, you should know the laws, if you don't, that's your own fault if you break one and get caught.

I believe criminals should be forced to pay for their own incarceration. Simply put them in a cell with nothing in it. Tell them if they would like, they may receive a free lethal injection at any time. Or they can starve themselves in their cell. But if they desire substance and life, they can work for it. Their labor would first pay for the cost of keeping them in prison, and second for their own comfort (food, water, clothing, entertainment, etc.). Once the sentence is complete, the prisoner may opt to stay on for a month or some other period of time, to earn money for their own pockets-- this would be to ensure they have the funds necessary to reintegrate themselves into society. Victimless crimes are not crimes at all, and would not be punished. (ie. drug use and other such things)

Sounds pretty reasonable on the surface.

If you were to combine this with money based on labor, then each criminal would be given their sentence based on how much money or labor they cost another. They would then be in prison for as long as it took them to repay their debt.

What about capital charges? Felonies? Multiple offenses? Ect.

Most of these ideas are somewhat rough cut, and still need to be refined. But I believe they are viable options.

I agree. Thanks for contributing, good perspectives.
 

Operation 420

Well-Known Member
Your avatar says it all. Poor Danny just wants to get into law school... Great fucking movie.:-P

As for the question, I'd argue that some Northern European countries are close to your ideal. They have a peaceful, largely educated populace with many resources to offer. Let me get some concrete numbers to see what I can find.

I will say this - most of these countries are socialist in nature. Capitalism always results in huge gaps between rich and poor, causing a nightmare of a situation. Currently, roughly 15% own 85% percent of the wealth in America, and that wealth wasn't earned through hard work - it was stolen through corruption and predation. This situation creates class envy and the unfairly designed, cyclical system eventually stymies peace and prosperity. My two cents...
I think the biggest problem is the tax dollars from the upper class aren't being used wisely. Welfare programs for example shouldn't be endless hamster wheels that lock you into the system. I believe job training should be mandatory, no training and trying to better yourself, no welfare.

Given, certain peoples environments aren't the best suited to obtain an education and get a job, but our tax dollars should be aiding them. Not stuffing bankers wallets and paying off lobbyists..

High schools with career orientated classes would be a nice start. :leaf:
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
I think the biggest problem is the tax dollars from the upper class aren't being used wisely. Welfare programs for example shouldn't be endless hamster wheels that lock you into the system. I believe job training should be mandatory, no training and trying to better yourself, no welfare.

Given, certain peoples environments aren't the best suited to obtain an education and get a job, but our tax dollars should be aiding them. Not stuffing bankers wallets and paying off lobbyists.. :leaf:
How can a person be "free" if mandatory programs are part of a "completely free society"?
 

Operation 420

Well-Known Member
How can a person be "free" if mandatory programs are part of a "completely free society"?
Well, if you depend on welfare, you aren't free in the first place. My point is since we're already using those tax dollars, we might as well use it wisely.

Educate people so they can be self dependent (free) and not need welfare.
 

fulbright

Member
Please define "labor".
Would a person that invents things or a scientist that does mostly thinking be exempt from receiving money in your view? Would people be allowed to spend money on entertainment? Would comedians get money?

Please define criminal. If a handicapped comedian were incarcerated for "illegally" acquiring money and couldn't labor, would you let him starve?

I commend you for disliking taxation. How will you pay for your authoritarian government and enforcement of its borders? Who'll pay all those clerical types you'll need to keep track of who signed "contracts" with the government?
You misunderstand me, but perhaps that is my fault. Let me clarify some of my viewpoints and answer your questions.

When I say labor, I do not mean only manual labor. I would call an intellectual creation labor as well. Labor, to me, is simply a productive action. Labor = producing something.

I believe that capitalism has been the most fruitful economic system we've ever had. I believe it has flaws in it, some of which may be irremovable. But I do believe in it.

Entertainers and Comedians would receive wages much us they do in our current society. They provide something that is considered to be of worth to other people, thus they are paid for their performances.

If a your' handicapped comedian is deemed unable to comprehend the social contract, then he would not be allowed to sign it. It's quite simple. Perhaps as part of that group's contract there would be allowances made for the handicapped. That would be up to each local government to decide.

A criminal in this case, would be someone who breaks the laws to which they have agreed to follow in the contract. These laws would be ones in place to protect the citizens right to life, liberty, property, and whatever other rights the citizens deem fit to protect.

I do not support authoritarianism. The federal government would protect the federal borders. I believe in small, localized government. While there would be a federal government, it's power would not extend within it's own borders, except perhaps a certain track of land along shared international borders for defense purposes. It does not take much to keep a list of contracted people. If your name is on the list, and your contract is on file, you would be subject to the clauses of that contract. As far as taxation goes, I posted my preference for land taxation. If you would like me to go further on that, I will. But you can read more about it if you look up Georgism.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
^^^ Fulbright, what if somebody that harmed nobody didn't want to sign this "contract" ? Would you leave them alone or initiate force against them?
 

fulbright

Member
Two questions, 1. what would a foreign policy in a government like this look like? and 2. what would you do in the instance of local governments (I'd assume state governments) developing tensions over whatever reasons? If there were no higher authority like the federal government, what would stop them from erupting into a civil war type conflict?

What about capital charges? Felonies? Multiple offenses? Ect.
You bring up some very good questions. Some of the answers to your questions might be answer by my last post which was a response to Rob Roy. Some of the answers, specifically regarding foreign policy, I can't really say I have the answer to. I admit that I have not put much thought into foreign policy yet. There is a heck of a lot to think about just inside our borders. I imagine that inter-government (ie between two or more small governments) relations would be done in a congress based system. I believe most of the Constitution can be preserved, and the majority of the order of government as laid down by our founding fathers likewise preserved.

As far as capital charges go, it would be the same idea as any other. Except there would be no end in sight to their incarceration. They can choose death for themselves, or they may work. After they pay the cost of their incarceration, I'm not adverse to letting them pay for comfortable things. Serious crimes require serious punishments.

I endorse a contract based system because it places the accountability and responsibility of any crime solely on the shoulders of the citizen who commits it. While most people are smart enough to learn the law where they live, and recognize that they are accountable for their actions under said law, there are those few who feel the law should not apply to them because they "did not agree to it".
 

fulbright

Member
^^^ Fulbright, what if somebody that harmed nobody didn't want to sign this "contract" ? Would you leave them alone or initiate force against them?
I don't know. Perhaps the local government who's borders they lived within would be lenient and allow them to live in their borders, but reward no protection for the rights in the contract. A man with no community to protect him or his rights would perhaps be left to fend for himself. If that man stands alone, he will probably fall alone too.

That is a very good question. What sort of solution would you see as a good one in such a situation?
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Well, if you depend on welfare, you aren't free in the first place. My point is since we're already using those tax dollars, we might as well use it wisely.

Educate people so they can be self dependent (free) and not need welfare.
I'm a little confused....

So in your "completely free society" some choices would not be up to the individual?

You would continue the practice of taxing one group to enable another group?

What if a person in this "completely free" society didn't want to be educated would you leave them alone?
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
I don't know. Perhaps the local government who's borders they lived within would be lenient and allow them to live in their borders, but reward no protection for the rights in the contract. A man with no community to protect him or his rights would perhaps be left to fend for himself. If that man stands alone, he will probably fall alone too.

That is a very good question. What sort of solution would you see as a good one in such a situation?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muHg86Mys7I


Bear with me and check out this video. It doesn't exactly address your question, but it might give you an idea of where I'm coming from philosophically.
 

mrmadcow

Well-Known Member
...Deep down I agree with you Rob, in that "freedom" entails being free from government in all aspects of the word. But like Abe pointed out, specifically about education, the free market fails to produce sufficient education for all citizens. Private schools (currently) are not consistent, and do not follow the same curriculums, so some students get better educations while others worse. Are you suggesting that the education system in America be for profit? (with that, I already foresee problems)
the problem w/ government education is most see it as free education & because it is "free",it is also worthless.dont take me the wrong way,I am not saying that education is worthless,just that some see it that way.
when this country was 1st formed,we had no government funded schools & yet B Franklin once remarked that a illiterate native born american was as rare as seeing a comet.
when people have to pay for their education,they demand that they get their moneys worth.while you say that private schools are not consistent(not disagreeing but)can you show me 1 that is as bad as the public schools in any major city?
 

sherriberry

New Member
there has always got to be someone in control...

if you want no rules, go to the congo... they are a free society... they can shoot you, rape you, skin you alive, steal from you...

and then you are free to defend yourself or do whatever you want.

america is not free technically... we are the opposite...

we have more laws than any other country on earth.

but, the rights of the weak are protected, so the weak feel free. Meanwhile... the murderers, rapists, dictators... they now do not feel free.

freedom is perspective. There is no such thing as freedom for all, for a rule of any kind invades the desires of someone due to the fact that everyone is so different.

as far as no one needing to work and everyone be rich?

impossible.

i can give you 6 billion dollars and drop you off in the desert...

and you can buy sand, and i can get it for free.

money... is green pieces of paper... you can wipe your ass with it and start a fire... and thats about it.

for your money to mean something.. SOME BODY, SOME WHERE, HAS TO MAKE THE TURKEY SANDWITCH...

has to pump the oil

has to dig the ditch when your rich ass hires them

has to build the car

has to write the software to program your hypothetical robots

someone... HAS TO WORK

my advice to you is quit worrying about the entire earth and trying to be popular... and instead worry about ourself and your closest friends.

EARN money for yourself.

if you earn money, you will be making the world a better place...

because to EARN money, you have to figure out a way to help humanity more than the next guy.

bill gates figured out how to make compueters easy to use.

warren buffet figured out how to help other people invest their money

henry ford figured out how to make thousands of cars a week using less labor by inventing the assembly line.

george lucas made a movie that everyone enjoys watching

if you EARN MONEY, rest assured, you have figured out a way to help everyone on earth.

the most selfish thing you can ever do for yourself is figure out how to help everyone on earth more than the next guy... for if you do, and you protect your idea,

you wont be able to stay poor if you tried.

and at that point, you can decide where your money goes... who gets it, etc.

but i think even if you make 50 billion like bill gates...

your going to realize that even if you donated ALL of your money away... thats less than 10 bucks per person...

oh boy, buy everyone a sandwitch, and then youre done.

money is not the solution.

wealth is not the solution

people who understand work has to be done, sandwitches have to be made, oil has to be drilled, software has to be developed....

and they figure out which one they like to do the best and treat people with respect while they do it...

thats the key to a better world.

i have free agency, you cant control me.

you have free agency, i cant control you.

so why dont you focus on yourself to become a person who accomplishes a lot in a day, and treats those around you with respect... and go to sleep at night with a clear conscience... because that is all you can do.... your best.
 

ilkhan

Well-Known Member
I never advocated no rules.
I am nearly as far right as you can go,
Before you run off Anachy ridge.

But Rules or Laws should be limited to:
A: Protecting people from force and violence.
B: Protecting property from theft, fraud and destruction.
C: Enforcing Contracts

No one here is advocating lawlessness.
 

Dfunk

Well-Known Member
Just gonna throw this out there...I think people spend too much time worrying about how to change other people's issues instead of their own. There is a great song called Man in the Mirror - I recommend it to all. I would also like to point out that some great ideas have been discussed within this thread. RickWhite your ego is mindboggling & all your negativity isn't helping anyone...just thought you might want to know that.
 
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PadawanBater

Guest
Never gonna happen. Perhaps another species someday, but not Hominids.

Well, we've got (on average) about 4 million years to figure it out. Whats say we get started?

I agree with your quick conclusion to some extent, what I'm proposing doesn't seem like a realistic goal, after some further discussion. Basically what it comes down to is limitations. Limitations on freedom and limitations on a governments power over it's citizens. Both extremes are at the opposite ends of the spectrum, and the problem seems to be that with freedom come automatic facets of security, which only government, or something similar, can provide.

I think this will take a very long time, much longer than you and I will exist. But innovators (that's us) hardly ever reap the rewards from the goals they set out to accomplish in their lifetime. Getting something like this organized and started, off the ground would be enough for me.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
We've discussed this earlier. The next jump in our quest upwards cannot take place as long as we have religion on board.

It's holding us back.
 
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PadawanBater

Guest
We've discussed this earlier. The next jump in our quest upwards cannot take place as long as we have religion on board.

It's holding us back.
Would you say that it's the number one obstacle standing in the way?

And would you make any distinctions between religion and organized religion?

Also, I would never support criminalizing religion or denying people their right to practice believe whatever they want, so how do you go about decreasing the amount of influence religion has over our population without the use of government (or some other entity) force? Education?
 

CrackerJax

New Member
I'd say it was a primary obstacle. We don't need a history lesson on organized religion, enough said there, most would agree. So let's move on to religion in general.

Religion allows us to absolve ourselves. It's a form of a cheat. I think this is why it has always had such staying power, no matter which variant is/was in play at any historical point. We use it, so we don't have to truly face ourselves.

Until we can stop the moral shirking, and truly decide to stop using religion as a crutch and a societal club, we'll be stuck in a rut, spinning our tires, and revving the engine ever higher till something blows apart.
 
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