Accidentally watered to runoff. How bad is it?

CBD123THC

Member
Just starting flowering. I'm growing a verity of autoflowers and I accidentally watered them all to runoff for the first time. I'm using promix as the base media and kind hot soil in the bottom third of the pots.

Has anybody done this before and how bad is it??!?

I'd day about 2 cups of runoff came off each plant.

What should I do now? Wait and see what happens? Compost tea? Top dress and water?
 

CBD123THC

Member
Thanks for the perspectives. I know it's bad to water to runoff with a water only soil, just didn't know how bad. It sounds like it's a medium-ish mistake and I'll have to wait and see what happens. I will let them dry out and then will probably top dress with some of the super soil to get ahead of any deficiencies or lack of micro life.

I'd be glad to hear any other perspectives but I'll post back with how it goes in the next few days / weeks.
 

Budzbuddha

Well-Known Member
No need to over think it .... shit happens. And yes a top dress can be a recharge to the plant as needed.

That all I do when running water only soil grows. Once I went to simple dry fert ammended soil , it’s been nothing but water. And megacrop once in awhile.
 

CBD123THC

Member
Thanks guys, I definitely feel better about it now. I was panicking but they're still growing well so far. My mistake in the past has been doing too much or correcting a "problem" that's not real. I've been trying to adopt the "less is more" mindset lol
 

J.James

Well-Known Member
Thanks guys, I definitely feel better about it now. I was panicking but they're still growing well so far. My mistake in the past has been doing too much or correcting a "problem" that's not real. I've been trying to adopt the "less is more" mindset lol
Only being 2 cups or so, wait a few hours and dump the runoff back into the pot
 

hillbill

Well-Known Member
Water needs to at least sometimes be watered through even with ROLS as organic grows are not exempt from salt buildup. Very difficult to accidentally overwater to harm in one watering.
 

J.James

Well-Known Member
as organic grows are not exempt from salt buildup.
This person is in a water-only situation, Salts will not be an issue. If you are experiencing Salt buildup from your "Organic Nutrients" then its time to learn about Chelation and take the time to read the ingredients list on the bottles your using. Try to find products that use amino and folic acids for Chelation in place of salts. You should also look for products that are 100% Water Soluble.

A good example is - Thrive.N
https://thrivenfertilizer.com/
 
Last edited:

hillbill

Well-Known Member
This person is in a water-only situation, Salts will not be an issue. If you are experiencing Salt buildup from your "Organic Nutrients" then its time to learn about Chelation and take the time to read the ingredients list on the bottles your using. Try to find products that use amino and folic acids for Chelation in place of salts. You should also look for products that are 100% Water Soluble.

A good example is - Thrive.N
https://thrivenfertilizer.com/
I use,and have used for long while now, individual and mostly dry amendments and some things sill show up in mix that I used 5 years ago.
Now is the time to pick up amendments and media and in fact ,all things garden related. It’s when I buy most meals and such when I can. Even got Mexican Bat Guano from a nursery reducing inventory for the off months.
 

hillbill

Well-Known Member
More relevant maybe to overwatering for many of us is watering too often though. I weigh my small containers and water at a specific weight. One of the best things I did was buy a good Kitchen Scale.
 

CBD123THC

Member
One week later and everything is fine. Have one growing vigorously and the others are growing ok for a noob I think. Besides the vigorous one, none of them were exploding with growth before this incident anyways. I don't think it had much of an impact besides maybe an overwatering that could have set them back. Thanks for the feedback to everybody who posted - peace
 

Longsmoker

Member
Just starting flowering. I'm growing a verity of autoflowers and I accidentally watered them all to runoff for the first time. I'm using promix as the base media and kind hot soil in the bottom third of the pots.

Has anybody done this before and how bad is it??!?

I'd day about 2 cups of runoff came off each plant.

What should I do now? Wait and see what happens? Compost tea? Top dress and water?
Im outdoors in pots and I water untill runoff every other day....nutes every 3rd watering...proper soil allows proper watering habits...
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
Don't trip too much on run-off in organics, there's a bit of misinformation involved with run-off being "bad" for organic soil in the sense that run-off being bad is only "half" true and is situational. If run-off depletes your soil of nutrients, your soil is likely mediocre unfortunately. Please allow me to explain.

Look into Cation Exchange Capacity, or CEC for short. Essentially, Cations have a positive charge and Anions have a negative charge. There are some exceptions to this rule, but for simplicity's sake we'll just leave it at that. Why brings this up? To cite a source;

"Since soils are negatively charged and plant nutrients are positive and negative, some nutrients are attracted to soil while others are not – the “opposites attract” principle. Those nutrients that exist as anions (-) are moved through soil, meaning growers need to be careful how they are applied regardless of soil type. These nutrients readily travel wherever water carries them, leading to nutrient runoff and leaching and economic loss and environmental concern.

Cations (+) are more readily bound to soil, resulting in these nutrients moving through the soil more slowly. However, since low CEC soils have fewer negative charges, cations will move more quickly through low CEC (sandy-based) soils than they will through high CEC (loamy and silt/clay-based) soils."

Think of Cations and Anions as the positive and negative sides of a magnet, this is exactly what's happening in your soil.

Run-off is only an issue once you top dress, once the top dress has decomposed then having run-off will cause little to no issues. Let's say you just grabbed yourself a bag of Dr Earth's Tomato and Herb blend to top dress your soil with. This is where run-off becomes an issue, because if you aren't careful with watering then you'll literally wash your top dress off the soil and it will be useless because it hasn't had a chance to decompose/work itself into your soil. So you need to water carefully until the top dress has decomposed/worked it's way deeper into the soil. Once the organic amendments are decomposed, they become nutrients in the form of Cations and Anions. Amendments mostly have a positive charge, though a small percentage will be negatively charged. For sake of example, lets just say decomposed amendments are 80% Cations and 20% Anions. Remember the magnet example above? The bulk of the nutrients in your top dress will literally bind themselves to the soil in a reaction similar to that of a magnet. The soil is like a negative magnet and your amendments are a positive side of the magnet. The 80% Cations will bind themselves to the soil and all the water in the world will not remove this bond. The 20% that are Anions, however, will run-off with too much water.

There is, however, one exception to this in the form of Phosphorus.

"The odd anion is phosphorous. Even though it has a (-) charge, it is not mobile in soil because phosphorous forms are not very soluble. It can, however, still move – not as the anion, but bound to soil particles as the particles move. Therefore, minimizing runoff is helpful in reducing phosphorus pollution." This is part of the reason that Coot's recommends keeping Phosphorus levels low in your soil (NPK value for P should be less than 8). Pollution/toxicity will only be an issue for you if you're top dressing with something strong, like Fish Bone Meal (3-16-0) or Seabird Guanos, aka "hot" amendments.

This is exactly why people use Peat Moss in organic soil as opposed to Coco. Coco is infinitely more forgiving than Peat Moss is in terms of watering, however Peat Moss has double the CEC that Coco does which means that Peat Moss can "hold" more nutrients than Coco can because Peat Moss is a more powerful "magnet" than Coco is.

I'll cite a few more sentences, and sources are below for you all to review :)

"Plant nutrients exist in the soil as either anions or cations. What are they? Most molecules in natural systems have a positive or negative charge and it is this charge difference that helps drive chemical reactions to keep us all alive – that’s important. Anions are those elements or molecules that in their natural state have a negative (-) charge. Cations are those that in their natural state have a positive (+) charge. Negative charge, positive charge – who cares? Keep reading.

Most soil particles have a negative charge. The amount of negative charge depends on soil texture, such as sand, silt and clay content, which is directly related to soil particle surface area. The cation exchange capacity (CEC) determined by a soil test is a direct indication of the amount of negative charges on your soils. A soil with low CEC has fewer negative charges than a soil with a higher number. High sand soils generally have a low CEC, clay or silt soils are higher and organic soils are highest – all related to particle surface area."

"When applying nutrients to low CEC soil, it is best to apply a little at a time otherwise you run the risk of leaching them through the soil and into ground water, especially on seasonally high water table sites. When applying nutrients to clay soils, due to their naturally slow infiltration rate, it is best to incorporate them. If they are placed on the surface they are prone to run-off during periods of heavy rain (or overhead irrigation) and contaminating surface water."

https://waltsorganic.com/cation-exchange-what-is-it-and-why-is-it-important/

https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/what_is_your_soil_cation_exchange_capacity

https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/anions_and_cations_in_plants_oh_my_but_why_do_we_care

tl;dr: If your soil is made of peat moss and is of high quality, you won't lose much nutrients via run-off.
 

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
Don't trip too much on run-off in organics, there's a bit of misinformation involved with run-off being "bad" for organic soil in the sense that run-off being bad is only "half" true and is situational. If run-off depletes your soil of nutrients, your soil is likely mediocre unfortunately. Please allow me to explain.

Look into Cation Exchange Capacity, or CEC for short. Essentially, Cations have a positive charge and Anions have a negative charge. There are some exceptions to this rule, but for simplicity's sake we'll just leave it at that. Why brings this up? To cite a source;

"Since soils are negatively charged and plant nutrients are positive and negative, some nutrients are attracted to soil while others are not – the “opposites attract” principle. Those nutrients that exist as anions (-) are moved through soil, meaning growers need to be careful how they are applied regardless of soil type. These nutrients readily travel wherever water carries them, leading to nutrient runoff and leaching and economic loss and environmental concern.

Cations (+) are more readily bound to soil, resulting in these nutrients moving through the soil more slowly. However, since low CEC soils have fewer negative charges, cations will move more quickly through low CEC (sandy-based) soils than they will through high CEC (loamy and silt/clay-based) soils."

Think of Cations and Anions as the positive and negative sides of a magnet, this is exactly what's happening in your soil.

Run-off is only an issue once you top dress, once the top dress has decomposed then having run-off will cause little to no issues. Let's say you just grabbed yourself a bag of Dr Earth's Tomato and Herb blend to top dress your soil with. This is where run-off becomes an issue, because if you aren't careful with watering then you'll literally wash your top dress off the soil and it will be useless because it hasn't had a chance to decompose/work itself into your soil. So you need to water carefully until the top dress has decomposed/worked it's way deeper into the soil. Once the organic amendments are decomposed, they become nutrients in the form of Cations and Anions. Amendments mostly have a positive charge, though a small percentage will be negatively charged. For sake of example, lets just say decomposed amendments are 80% Cations and 20% Anions. Remember the magnet example above? The bulk of the nutrients in your top dress will literally bind themselves to the soil in a reaction similar to that of a magnet. The soil is like a negative magnet and your amendments are a positive side of the magnet. The 80% Cations will bind themselves to the soil and all the water in the world will not remove this bond. The 20% that are Anions, however, will run-off with too much water.

There is, however, one exception to this in the form of Phosphorus.

"The odd anion is phosphorous. Even though it has a (-) charge, it is not mobile in soil because phosphorous forms are not very soluble. It can, however, still move – not as the anion, but bound to soil particles as the particles move. Therefore, minimizing runoff is helpful in reducing phosphorus pollution." This is part of the reason that Coot's recommends keeping Phosphorus levels low in your soil (NPK value for P should be less than 8). Pollution/toxicity will only be an issue for you if you're top dressing with something strong, like Fish Bone Meal (3-16-0) or Seabird Guanos, aka "hot" amendments.

This is exactly why people use Peat Moss in organic soil as opposed to Coco. Coco is infinitely more forgiving than Peat Moss is in terms of watering, however Peat Moss has double the CEC that Coco does which means that Peat Moss can "hold" more nutrients than Coco can because Peat Moss is a more powerful "magnet" than Coco is.

I'll cite a few more sentences, and sources are below for you all to review :)

"Plant nutrients exist in the soil as either anions or cations. What are they? Most molecules in natural systems have a positive or negative charge and it is this charge difference that helps drive chemical reactions to keep us all alive – that’s important. Anions are those elements or molecules that in their natural state have a negative (-) charge. Cations are those that in their natural state have a positive (+) charge. Negative charge, positive charge – who cares? Keep reading.

Most soil particles have a negative charge. The amount of negative charge depends on soil texture, such as sand, silt and clay content, which is directly related to soil particle surface area. The cation exchange capacity (CEC) determined by a soil test is a direct indication of the amount of negative charges on your soils. A soil with low CEC has fewer negative charges than a soil with a higher number. High sand soils generally have a low CEC, clay or silt soils are higher and organic soils are highest – all related to particle surface area."

"When applying nutrients to low CEC soil, it is best to apply a little at a time otherwise you run the risk of leaching them through the soil and into ground water, especially on seasonally high water table sites. When applying nutrients to clay soils, due to their naturally slow infiltration rate, it is best to incorporate them. If they are placed on the surface they are prone to run-off during periods of heavy rain (or overhead irrigation) and contaminating surface water."

https://waltsorganic.com/cation-exchange-what-is-it-and-why-is-it-important/

https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/what_is_your_soil_cation_exchange_capacity

https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/anions_and_cations_in_plants_oh_my_but_why_do_we_care

tl;dr: If your soil is made of peat moss and is of high quality, you won't lose much nutrients via run-off.
Damn, I learn so much from reading just one of your posts. You might be a genius man. I didn't know fish bone meal was considered hot. I just started doing top dressing only, and so I mixed 1 part BAS Craft Blend with 1 part fish bone meal and 1/4 part insect frass. My plants are at day 14 flowering. I put about 1/4 to 1/3 cup of the mix on each 15 gal pot and they seem happy. Just wondering what you think. I have kelp meal and crab meal too, but haven't used it since it's already in the Craft Blend. Thanks, and keep teaching us all.
 

JayBio420

Well-Known Member
Sounds more like a flush to me ...........
I’m confused by this. How is 2 cups of runoff anything like a flush. First off, you can’t flush organic soil. Secondly, a flush uses much more than the pots volume. What do you mean, as this comes off as fear mongering or misinformation at best.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
Damn, I learn so much from reading just one of your posts. You might be a genius man. I didn't know fish bone meal was considered hot. I just started doing top dressing only, and so I mixed 1 part BAS Craft Blend with 1 part fish bone meal and 1/4 part insect frass. My plants are at day 14 flowering. I put about 1/4 to 1/3 cup of the mix on each 15 gal pot and they seem happy. Just wondering what you think. I have kelp meal and crab meal too, but haven't used it since it's already in the Craft Blend. Thanks, and keep teaching us all.
BAS is pretty much just a blend of Kelp/Crab/Neem meal correct? If I'm not mistaken, BAS offers the Craft Blend (Kelp/Crab/Neem) and also a Mineral Blend yes? Anyway, all 3 of those ingredients are so light that you can top dress with those ingredients weekly once the plant is taller than 1ft, they don't decompose quick enough to cause any burns. However, Neem Meal is high in Nitrogen so it's preferable to not use it in flower. Amazon sells a Karanja+Neem Meal that has 0 NPK, I like to use that in flower because it provides the benefits of the Neem Meal but doesn't give me all of that nitrogen when I'm in flower.

You'll be totally fine though my man, using Karanja instead of Neem during flower will help you but it's not going to ruin your results if you don't do this. I haven't used Fish Bone Meal in over 5 years now, it's not that it's bad but it's just very easy to overdo it. Same with Blood Meal, Bone Meal, Guanos, and even Alfalfa Meal believe it or not. I do use 0-5-0 Guano in flower from time to time, depending on how heavy of a feeder the plant is. I'm just cautious with my application rates is all to avoid problems.

Coot's is the real genius though, I just regurgitate a lot of his information in a more condensed form is all. I've been growing in various living soils for nearly 8 years now; I used Subcool's Supersoil for 2-3 years before discovering Coot's recipe. I do have a poor tendency to write lengthy posts, but believe it or not my long ass posts are actually condensed bits of information I've accumulated over the years. I must have spent a week reading Coot's threads on other forums, even writing notes in a notepad.

I appreciate the kind words my friend, but I'm really nothing special. I'm just a guy that happened to do a lot of research and someone that learned a lot of lessons the hard way. It did take a good amount of due diligence on my part, but the information was received freely so it should be given freely.

I can't speak for Coot's and why he so readily gives the information that he does, but I'd like to think he has a similar motivation that I do. It doesn't matter what you grow in a living soil, whatever produce you grow in a living soil is going to be the absolute best tasting produce you've experienced in your life. Not just with weed, but fruits and veggies too. A few years back I realized that my weed only tastes so good because of the soil, so I figured why not try veggies and fruit in it? Holy shit, everything in the supermarket is fake as shit. I actually like Cherry Tomatoes now, Honeydew that I grow almost tastes like candy/Jolly Ranchers, and when I cut cucumbers sometimes people think my wife sprayed a perfume or used a lotion of some sort. The flavor and quality of anything grown in a living soil is nothing short of amazing.

I firmly believe that if everyone had access to this information and realized how easy it is to produce things in a living soil then there would be a revolution in the Agriculture industry overnight.
 
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