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*advanced techniques

Discussion in 'Hydroponics / Aeroponics' started by CROPALOTAPOT, Dec 12, 2009.

  1.  
    CROPALOTAPOT

    CROPALOTAPOT Active Member

    Haha, thanks Streetlegal good to know. I was done with responding to any stupid comments anyway.
    I have only started posting on threads recently and have always despised the stupid bickering that always goes on in forums...

    Cheers!
     
  2.  
    fatman7574

    fatman7574 New Member

    Simpy use a venturi valve as recomended by horticultyuralists or use a needle wheel pum. They both increase DO a great deal more than any reasonable number of air pumps. Small bubbles in profusion incrase DO beter than the same amount of air in the form of larger bubbles. Simple proven science. It is not my fault some people do not like to learn what works better. http://www.petsolutions.com/Turbo-Venturi-Valve+I12515435+C1.aspx You just use a submersible pump and install the venturi valve on the enrtance and run an air hose up to above the water line. The pumps water causes a vacumn that sucks in air. Y The pumps impeller chi ops the air inti very tiny bubbles. They have a higher ratio of surface are for theirair volume so they oxygenate the water more. Quite simple. Or they sell needle wheel pumps set up to do the same thing. They are a bit more expensie but chop the air up a bit better.
     
  3.  
    fatman7574

    fatman7574 New Member

     
  4.  
    CROPALOTAPOT

    CROPALOTAPOT Active Member

    Just thought I would let everyone know what I just found out...

    BARLEY STRAW RAFTS & PELLETS
    Barley straw rafts floating in the water are algaecidal. They are useful in hydroponic systems and reservoirs. This affect is due to the hydrogen peroxide produced by a complex series of chemical reactions as the barley decays.

    ^^^PAGE 141^^ http://books.google.ca/books?id=r9a...resnum=2&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false

    I am thinking of putting some in some pantyhose and throwing it in the res to float..
     
  5.  
    CROPALOTAPOT

    CROPALOTAPOT Active Member

  6.  
    mindphuk

    mindphuk Well-Known Member

    Wow!
    Don't let the haters discourage you. People are very resistant to change and new ideas. +rep for the great info.

    Keep it up. Run a side-by-side system to show the comparison to the disbelievers. I guarantee you will have converts.
     
  7.  
    CROPALOTAPOT

    CROPALOTAPOT Active Member

    F'en eh Mindphuck.. The system that I am growing right now is a experimental table method of mine with air lines under 8 giant bags of Hydroton rock ran to a massive pond air pump (Hagen ae-80)
    It is like the KFB method in the way that all the air lines (soaker hose) under the rocks froth the nutrients up into the medium.... Mmmmm frothy nutes

    I am converting these tables back into some crazy hybrid dwc when these are finished though. Its gonna be a pretty crazy setup with light rails and over 5,ooow so we can see some first hand mad scientist dwc growing when these tables are done.. Until then, I've drawn up how a KFB (Krusty Bucket) operates for those of you who don't know or where not around in the good ol' Overgrow days..

    Oh I forgot to mention in the picture of the KFB bucket that the whole goal their is to keep your water\nutrient level to only an inch or so, so that it can froth all the way up into the bucket with the power of your massive air pumps..

    Cheers..
     

    Attached Files:

  8.  
    OregonMeds

    OregonMeds Well-Known Member

    Hardly anyone has a clue what a krusty bucket is on here it seems, I've tried to talk about them before when I was debating that or med patient bins like doubled's is doing on thcfarmer, hardly a peep.

    If this guy ran krusty buckets he knows his stuff, shut up and listen.

    Have you heard of the med patient bins yet? Stomping on krusty bucket records...
    If you have seen it, do you think this would have a positive impact on that system?
    Also wouldn't the hydrogen build up and become dangerous in a sealed room like these systems usually use?
     
  9.  
    fatman7574

    fatman7574 New Member

    It is simply easier to use new technolgy to create the frothy bubbles. Use a needle wheel pump or several or use air venturis on the entrance to water pumps. The water pasing through the venturi sucks in air and the pumps impeler chops it into smaller bubbles. It is realy like a needle wj heel pump but with a standard impeller the bubbles are larger.

    If you look at the water from a needle wheel pump the water is so full of really little bubbles it looks almost like milk. They are used by the thousands of reef aquarium keepers to supply protein skimmers with frothy water.
    http://www.aquacave.com/sedra-ksp-2500-needle-brwheel-water-pump-1393.html


    Venturi valve: http://compare.ebay.com/like/300360377726

    Hydrogen build up???? Hydroton rock is simply small kiln fired clay balls used as a growing media.
     
  10.  
    mindphuk

    mindphuk Well-Known Member

    I have a Ocean Runner pump with a needle wheel that I was supposed to use to replace the pump on my Turbofloter. Yep, that thing chops up the water really nice.

    Just keep in mind all of that air is 79% nitrogen and 21% oxygen. Electrolysis creates much higher levels of DO.
     
  11.  
    fatman7574

    fatman7574 New Member

    Yes but you will not be breaking down all the H2O into its seperate components, therefore the amount available for conversion matters little as you will be converting very little. The water pump is already present and in use. You would simply be lowering thw water flow a small amount as air will replce just a small part of the previous water flow volume.

    Not a free lunch but close as no extra purchased energy is being input, but a lot of benefits are gained at the small cost of a little less water flow. With a 3/4 venturi valve using a 1/4" inlet your only giving up about ten percent of your water flow (area = 0.049 sq inches from 0.442 square inches) for a massive amount of oxygen packed small bubbles.

    There are many oxygen enrichment methods used in hydroponics, water treatment and waste water treatment processes,and electrolysis has never been found to be economical or reliable enough for those industries/facilities. Probably at least a dozen research grants in U.S. universities per year have electrolysis produced O2 initially as part of the research. It is nearly always discarded quite early in the research.

    If it can not pass initial testing and review at a preliminary satge when tight controls can be used then typically it is never even considered for commercial use where controls are more lax. Maybe to create O2 on the moon from found frozen waterwhere an unlimited budget and high tech controls would be the norm.
     
  12.  
    repvip

    repvip Well-Known Member

    It's true... I recently read a wastewater treatment project that compared a couple of oxygen enrichment methods, and dumped the electrolysis halfway through. Not trying to be a hater.. I still love the idea.

    fatman I have another venturi valve question, sorry.
    If it's installed before the pump, with an air hose out of the reservoir, will the water pump suck in enough air on it's own, or do you hook up an aquarium pump to it?
     
  13.  
    fatman7574

    fatman7574 New Member

    Just on its own it will suck in a huge amount of air. I have a 6 foot tall reef aquarium protein skimmer with a 3600 gph pump that is just fed air through a venturi. They work extremely well.
     
  14.  
    OregonMeds

    OregonMeds Well-Known Member

    I still didn't get an answer on the hydrogen build up. If you are using electrolysis to split oxygen and hydrogen the hydrogen has to go somewhere, and in a sealed room would there be enough buildup at any time to cause any problems? Hydrogen isn't something to screw around with, so I figured it's best to get a perfectly clear answer.
    If you need some ventilation to run it, it's best to know that up front. For every amount of oxygen there would be double that amount of hydrogen released.


    thanks man...
     
  15.  
    fatman7574

    fatman7574 New Member

    It really depends on the process used, as Ph of the water solution means i]the hydrogen formas as a gas H2 or it is instead in an acid solution tied to part of the oxygen as OH instead. Even if released as H2 gas it could be fairly easily managed as H2 gas is extremely light with a mass about 1/15 of room air. Just a vent with a rise would have enough draft to remove the hydrogen without a fan even being needed.
     
  16.  
    OregonMeds

    OregonMeds Well-Known Member

    True it would collect on the ceiling if anywhere and easily vent, I'd just have to know if I needed to install that vent. At any rate it sounds like just the thing I'd want to try, I'll look into it more. I'm going to go balls out with co2 and all and venting isn't in the plan but we'll see about it and maybe see if this adds to a system like dd's.
     
  17.  
    bradyforpope

    bradyforpope Member

    can you explain how to make the Oxy-Gen machine yourself...thanks
     
  18.  
    OregonMeds

    OregonMeds Well-Known Member

    You can't.

    I was only talking about making a water pressure switch.

    However it's the same thing as a generic tankless water heater, if you need to save money they sell for less than one with a horticultural brand name on it. And if you buy a tankless water heater you can take advantage of the grants or credits or whatever energy program bonuses you can get at state, federal, and local gas company level. (If you take the time to look into those it can save up to $200 off.)

    You'd still need a co2 controller or environment controller though... And the installation, and the cooling for it. Not the cheap way to go, only the most cost effective/easiest long term.
     
  19.  
    Drgdogg

    Drgdogg Member

    Hey CROPALOTAPOT good job... I'm doing some experimentation with electrolysis for DWC mainly for noise reduction... My question is what type of anode are you using SS 18-8, marine stainless steel? I've been checking some anode patents and it seems that carbon or iridium oxide coated titanium are the best anodes in keeping the solution from contaminating... Also you mentioned a "DO" meter, did you run a before and after electrolysis? Could you tell me the numbers? Did you notice EC/PPM going up?
    I've built a prototype and so far it's been milking the water pretty good and fast, but if let it sit for a while I notice some yellowing of the solution (some iron on my anode :wall:) which should be lemonade colour more or less (I use CNS17 btw)... Anyway, once again, good job man in sharing some of your experience with electrolysis.:leaf:
     
  20.  
    fatman7574

    fatman7574 New Member

    The simpliest method would be to just upgrade to a better growing system where you are not dependent on artificially high reservoir water DO. Cheaped down stystems that are highly dependent on artficially high DO levels are sorta absurd anyway as they are just so prone to problems. So now your talking using a cheaped down system with ggod dollars thrown after bad to try to make up for the shortcomings of a bad system. Too much like beating the dead horse. Get a good system where artifically high DO levels are not needed and don't worry about electrolylsis.
     

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