And even more on Moore's little box of a world ...

ViRedd

New Member
Moore “World of We”
Michael Moore is practically the Leni Riefenstahl of socialism.

By Rich Lowry


Michael Moore set out to make a movie attacking the American insurance industry and ended up attacking the American character. By the end of his movie SiCKO, his plaint is less about American resistance to government-run health care than its overarching rejection of collectivism. As Moore puts it, everywhere else it’s “a world of we,” but here a “world of me.”

His voice thus joins a vast, age-old chorus of left-wing bafflement and disillusion at American exceptionalism — our national traits that have prevented the development of a statist politics along continental European lines. Moore’s explanation for this phenomenon is typically twisted: Americans are saddled with debt from college loans and health care, and that keeps us from demanding French-style pampering from our government for fear of foreclosure by The Man.

Tellingly, Moore picks up this theory in an interview with Tony Benn, an old-school British socialist of the sort who simply doesn’t exist in the U.S. Here, our left-wing politicians vote for war funding before they vote against it, always trimming to keep from rubbing too strongly against the American grain. Moore fervently wishes that grain were different, and he celebrates all countries where government has a vaster reach and tighter grip — from Cuba to France.

He is practically the Leni Riefenstahl of socialism. Anyone in a country with government-provided health insurance is portrayed as tripping through daisies to the hospital, where everything is free and the care is perfect. America, in contrast, is a vista of unrelieved gloom. Moore is adept at the propagandist’s art — keep it simple and keep it dishonest.

You would never know that America ranks highest in the world in patient satisfaction, or that only about half of emergency-room patients in Canada get timely treatment. This is not to say that Moore doesn’t highlight real problems in the American insurance system — which is badly distorted by the fact that most people get their insurance through their employers — but his complaint goes much deeper: Americans don’t have the “free” things of the French, who not only get lots of paid vacation, but have government nannies come to their homes to do their laundry for them after they have children.
Moore hints at — of course — a conspiracy to try to keep us from liking the French for fear that we too will develop a taste for the good life on the government’s dime. Unfortunately for Moore, it’s worse than that. America has a deep-seated individualistic value system that, coupled with the lack of European-style class conflict, inhibited the rise of social democracy here. As one historian has put it, if you were to set out to design a society hostile to collectivism, “one could not have done much better than to implement the social development that has, mostly unplanned, constituted America.”This exceptionalism has its downsides — our high rates of violence, for one — but it also has created a extraordinarily dynamic and open society that can adjust to and thrive in the globalized economy in a way that sclerotic social democracies can’t. Just as Moore is apotheosizing France, its people took to the polls in near-record numbers to elect a reformist president devoted to making them work harder and weaning them from cushy benefits. In this sense, Michael Moore is more French than the French.He hails the street protests that engulf France every time the government threatens to take away some benefit. We don’t match the French in demonstrations, but once established, our government programs are just as fiercely defended. Liberals agitate for more government programs knowing that they create their own self-perpetuating constituencies and chip away at our culture of self-reliance. For now, that culture is still robust, as American exceptionalism remains stubbornly exceptional.

If you really want sweeping French-style social-welfare programs and repressive tax rates, your only alternative is to, like the American expats Moore glorifies in his movie, move to France.
© 2007 by King Features Syndicate
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
Hey Vi, Why not try to find things that aren't written by a Neo-conservative hack?
Status Quo isn't working anymore.
 

Token

Well-Known Member
you actaully think we should be forced to have insurance to drive that sound more democrat Vi R u switching sides. haha
 

mogie

Well-Known Member
The system isn't broken. People are abusing it. People with no intention of paying are clogging up emergency rooms with cases of colds and sniffles. The government already provides all types of free clinics, outreaches, you name it to people. Trouble is most people are too lazy to take advantage of these. I have been at these and seen for myself.
 

Token

Well-Known Member
That's due to lack of education in the people not nowing about area health clinics they think they have to go to a hospital and when there they always tell you to go to the emergancey room.
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
Mogie the people who are abusing the system are the Illegals and the Health Care companies themselves.
Besides tell the Woman who died on the Floor of the ER at MLK/Drew Medical Center from an exploded Gall Bladder that tripe you just said Mogie.
All because the Hospital didn't want to take a loss, That has to be one of the biggest full of shit statements I have ever heard.
Look the US is one of the richest countries in the world, we have a positive population growth, there is no reason we couldn't have universal health care except that greedy assholes (Corporations) run this country.
What ever happened to For the People and By the people?
 

suicidesamurai

Well-Known Member
Mogie the people who are abusing the system are the Illegals and the Health Care companies themselves.
Besides tell the Woman who died on the Floor of the ER at MLK/Drew Medical Center from an exploded Gall Bladder that tripe you just said Mogie.
All because the Hospital didn't want to take a loss, That has to be one of the biggest full of shit statements I have ever heard.
Look the US is one of the richest countries in the world, we have a positive population growth, there is no reason we couldn't have universal health care except that greedy assholes (Corporations) run this country.
What ever happened to For the People and By the people?
That is known to be probably the worst hospital in the country.
 

GrowRebel

Well-Known Member
Uhhhh ... how about refuting the points in the article, Dank?

Vi
Sure .....
You would never know that America ranks highest in the world in patient satisfaction
....never disputed that .... just quoted this ...

"The U. S. health system spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance, the report finds." "World Health Organization Assesses The World's Health Systems," Press Release, WHO/44, June 21, 2000. http://www.who.int/inf-pr-2000/en/pr2000-44.html

only about half of emergency-room patients in Canada get timely treatment
Canadian "wait times" not nearly as long as some try to allege.
  • According to Statistics Canada, the official government statistical agency, "In 2005, the median waiting time was about 4 weeks for specialist visits, 4 weeks for non-emergency surgery, and 3 weeks for diagnostic tests. Nationally, median waiting times remained stable between 2003 and 2005 - but there were some differences at the provincial level for selected specialized services.… 70 to 80 percent of Canadians find their waiting times acceptable" "Access to health care services in Canada, Waiting times for specialized services (January to December 2005)," Statistics Canada, http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/82-575-XIE/82-575-
    XIE2006002.htm
  • A recent study of emergency care in Ontario found that overall, "50% of patients triaged as CTAS I [most acute] were seen by a physician within 6 minutes and 86% were seen within 30 minutes of arriving at the [Emergency Department]. In contrast, the 50% of patients triaged as CTAS IV or V who were seen most quickly waited an hour or less, while 1 in 10 waited three hours or more. Understanding Emergency Department Wait Times: How Long Do People Spend in Emergency Departments in Ontario? Canadian Institute for Health Information, January 2007.
    http://www.cihi.ca/cihiweb/dispPage.jsp?cw_page=reports_
    wait_times_bulletins_e
  • "Gerard Anderson, a Johns Hopkins health policy professor who has spent his career examining the world's healthcare, said there are delays, but not as many as conservatives state. In Canada, the United Kingdom and France, 'three percent of hospital discharges had delays in treatment,' Anderson told The Miami Herald. 'That's a relatively small number, and they're all elective surgeries, such as hip and knee replacement.' John Dorschner, "'Sicko' film is set to spark debate; Reformers are gearing up for 'Sicko,' the first major movie to examine America's often maligned healthcare system," Miami Herald, June 29, 2007.
There ya go ..... there's more .... but I don't have the time.:-|
 

ViRedd

New Member
GrowRebel sez ...

"According to Statistics Canada, the official government statistical agency, "In 2005, the median waiting time was about 4 weeks for specialist visits, 4 weeks for non-emergency surgery, and 3 weeks for diagnostic tests. Nationally, median waiting times remained stable between 2003 and 2005 - but there were some differences at the provincial level for selected specialized services.… 70 to 80 percent of Canadians find their waiting times acceptable" "Access to health care services in Canada, Waiting times for specialized services (January to December 2005),"

And you think this is acceptable? What this report is saying is, 20 to 30 percent are DISSATISFIED with their wait times. I would imagine you'd find a similar percentage here in the States at the Department of Motor Vehicles. *lol*

And Dank, using the Martin Luther King hospital as an example of America's overall health care system is disingenous at best. As you know, its located in Inglewood California. Its a joke among the folks who live in Inglewood. Its common knowledge there that if you have a heart attack on the front steps of MLK hospital, and if you want to live, have someone drive you to an emergency room on the other side of town. *lol* The administration at MLK has been under fire for a very long time for its incompetence. The place is not only a laughing stock, its a disaster. Its the place you'd want to go if you WANT to catch a disease. Its rife with fraud and embezzelment. Its kind of like a mini U.N. Now, lets talk apples and apples, not apples and oranges.

Vi
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
And you think this is acceptable? What this report is saying is, 20 to 30 percent are DISSATISFIED with their wait times. I would imagine you'd find a similar percentage here in the States at the Department of Motor Vehicles. *lol*

And Dank, using the Martin Luther King hospital as an example of America's overall health care system is disingenous at best. As you know, its located in Inglewood California. Its a joke among the folks who live in Inglewood. Its common knowledge there that if you have a heart attack on the front steps of MLK hospital, and if you want to live, have someone drive you to an emergency room on the other side of town. *lol* The administration at MLK has been under fire for a very long time for its incompetence. The place is not only a laughing stock, its a disaster. Its the place you'd want to go if you WANT to catch a disease. Its rife with fraud and embezzelment. Its kind of like a mini U.N. Now, lets talk apples and apples, not apples and oranges.

Vi
If you were to look up the statistics on the dissatisfaction with the US health care system I'm sure you would find that the numbers are the same as the Canadian system. So that bucket holds no water Vi.

Yeah I used MLK/Drew Medical center as an example, but this happens in a lot of hospitals around the country on a daily basis.
Vi you forget I lived in LA for 30 years, No Hospital should put people through that. Again, you have no moral high ground on this argument.
 

ViRedd

New Member
If you were to look up the statistics on the dissatisfaction with the US health care system I'm sure you would find that the numbers are the same as the Canadian system. So that bucket holds no water Vi.

Yeah I used MLK/Drew Medical center as an example, but this happens in a lot of hospitals around the country on a daily basis.
Vi you forget I lived in LA for 30 years, No Hospital should put people through that. Again, you have no moral high ground on this argument.
No Dank ... I didn't forget that you lived in L.A. I said: "As you know, MLK is in Inglewood." And again, you used the worst of the worst as an example of the entire U.S. health care system. That's not really fair, is it?

Vi
 

medicineman

New Member
Hey VI, I have to wait three to four weeks to see a specialist with my HMO on some things, others are within a couple a weeks. I waited for 5 weeks to see a foot specialist for an ingrown toenail, finally took a knife and dug it out and cut it off myself, have you ever experienced an ingrown toenail, If so, you can appreciate the pain involved in digging out the offending toenail without a local anasthetic. You see, they have to OK the procedure with some bureaucrat in some office in Bumfuck before they will help you, this is crazy bullshit, I had to live with major pain because some asshole had to see a report from the recommending Dr. before he could tell the preforming Dr. to go ahead, because he might be spending too much money on me. This is your wonderful American health care system. How about I just go to the podiatrist in the first place, he gives me a shot of novacain and digs the toenail out and away I go, simple and less expensive. didn't have to go to the authorizing Dr, and they didn't have to pay the asshole middleman authorizers wages and pay for all that paperwork, and for all the CEOs worthless salaries. Thats how it would work under single payer.
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
No Dank ... I didn't forget that you lived in L.A. I said: "As you know, MLK is in Inglewood." And again, you used the worst of the worst as an example of the entire U.S. health care system. That's not really fair, is it?

Vi
Yes it's fair, it's endemic of the medical system as a whole, this happens in every large city in the US on a daily basis.
Putting someones life up for profit is immoral.
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member

What ever happened to For the People and By the people?



you can't be for the people by the people and for the government by the government at the same time Dank, basic mechanics. it just doesn't work like that. it's one or the other, so pick one.




.
 

ViRedd

New Member
Hey, Med ...

The reason you have to wait for your medical care is because you've elected to join an HMO. There is an old universal law out there: You get what you pay for. Sign up for Blue Cross medical insurance and end your wait times.

Vi
 
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