Backwards Hermie...Male to Female

homebrewer said:

Maybe this is a better pic but it clearly shows a male plant with a few pistols at the top.

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That is a weird plant. Interesting to see what it produces, especially if it self pollinates.

Maximus cannabis said:

That is a weird plant. Interesting to see what it produces, especially if it self pollinates.

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I crossed it with a female and have a clone of this male if the beans turn out to be anything special. It's a long process of course and if I can remember, i'll update this thread as to if this plant passed on a hermie trait or quality genetics or just another run-of-the-mill hybrid.

growone said:

i've had the same deal, a male plant starting throwing out pistils after some stress
so i did some reading and DJ's comments on this
a male hermie is supposedly not that unusual, what is unusual is a hermie male that actually sets some seeds, i.e. pistils are fertile and viable
that is supposed to be very rare, but that is the magic pollen
makes crosses that have a higher percentage of females, and are less hermie prone

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i think i have one of these...its a male bannana kush x white widow....the main cola has developed pistils and in the last few days the pistils have been pollinated...the pistils are turning brown and receding...i have kept him in the kitchen seperate from the ladies, so im not really worried about keeping him around...i have already collected pollen from him but after reading this i might just grow it out and see what happens...magic seeds you say?

drmarcusg said:

i think i have one of these...its a male bannana kush x white widow....the main cola has developed pistils and in the last few days the pistils have been pollinated...the pistils are turning brown and receding...i have kept him in the kitchen seperate from the ladies, so im not really worried about keeping him around...i have already collected pollen from him but after reading this i might just grow it out and see what happens...magic seeds you say?

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I'll give you a cow for 5 of those magic beans...

drmarcusg said:

i think i have one of these...its a male bannana kush x white widow....the main cola has developed pistils and in the last few days the pistils have been pollinated...the pistils are turning brown and receding...i have kept him in the kitchen seperate from the ladies, so im not really worried about keeping him around...i have already collected pollen from him but after reading this i might just grow it out and see what happens...magic seeds you say?

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'magic' was my interpretation on the posts i read on dj short's comments
it's tough to make sense of the various breeder techniques, each has their own spin
the pollen is supposed to be the good part, not too sure what the seeds would produce
the pollen is supposed to given you offspring that have a higher ratio of females, and are more hermie resistant
this is the story, i have no first hand experience with this method

I started a thread in the parent forum about "apomixis" and "agamospermy".

I think the term "herm" get's thrown around too loosely. Everyone seems to have the same beliefs about herm plants. For instance, get them out of your grow area so that they don't pollinate your other plants. But there are stories of herm plants existing alongside females, and the females never being affected.

Now take the reported advice of DJS, which is to keep "backward hermies" because of their perceived desirable qualities. Well, "backwards hermies" doesn't really sound too scientific to me. I want to know what the hell a "backwards herm" really is?

That's where I think my thread about "apomixis"and "agamospermy" tendencies in flowering plants becomes relevant to this conversation.

Consider this Wikipedia entry on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apomixis

Of particular interest:

"In botany, apomixis was defined by Winkler as replacement of the normal sexual reproduction by asexual reproduction, without fertilization[1]. This definition notably does not mention meiosis. Thus "normal asexual reproduction" of plants, such as propagation from cuttings or leaves, has never been considered to be apomixis, but replacement of the seed by a plantlet, or replacement of the flower by bulbils are types of apomixis. Apomictically produced offspring are genetically identical to the parent plant."

"In flowering plants, the term "apomixis" is commonly used in a restricted sense to mean agamospermy, i.e. asexual reproduction through seeds."

"Agamospermy occurs mainly in two forms: In gametophytic apomixis, the embryo arises from an unfertilized egg cell (i.e. by parthenogenesis) in a gametophyte that was produced from a cell that did not complete meiosis. In adventitious embryony (sporophytic apomixis), an embryo is formed directly (not from a gametophyte) from nucellus or integument tissue (see nucellar embryony)."
--
So all of this information seems to suggest that it's possible for flowering plans to produce seeds asexually, without pollen.

It also seems to describe a process by which would result in "replacement of seed with plantment".

Maybe this behavior can occur in cannabis? Very important, I am not stating this as a fact. I've just never heard anyone have this conversation. Perhaps "herms" actually need several classifications. For instance, gametophytic apomixistic agamospermic herm versus...shit, I don't know, some other kind of herm.

I really don't think enough testing has been done with them to have a conclusive answer. Not enough people have any use for maes once they show themselves so how common they are is debatable. What would be necessary is to find out if the male to female herm trait is seperate from the female to male trait or if it's a common gene or w/e that controls it. Ideally, youwould want a female that was impossible to get male parts from and than cross that with the backwards hermie and than stress test the females to see if they still resist changing sexes. If the female isn't tested to resist it than any results would be unreliable IMO.

so i'm finishing a male for some pollen
and what pops out? a male hermie - just barely
the upper 1/2 inch of this male is beautifully female
it's a tiny cola top, but perfectly shaped
down below the upper half inch is all balls, total buck male
the pic detail is a bit rough, but you can(hopefully) just make out the tiny cola tip

growone said:

so i'm finishing a male for some pollen
and what pops out? a male hermie - just barely
the upper 1/2 inch of this male is beautifully female
it's a tiny cola top, but perfectly shaped
down below the upper half inch is all balls, total buck male
the pic detail is a bit rough, but you can(hopefully) just make out the tiny cola tip

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That type of behavior would seem to fall into the description of "apomixis", in that what one would assume should have been seed was instead replaced by "plantment".

Thanks for posting that info, would be cool to see some more pics.

asmithee said:

That type of behavior would seem to fall into the description of "apomixis", in that what one would assume should have been seed was instead replaced by "plantment".

Thanks for posting that info, would be cool to see some more pics.

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i will try to get a close in pic of the top tomorrow
you seem to have much more sense of what this is than i do, bizarre plant
that upper tip is just so nicely formed, i was hoping for a much larger set of 'tip's, but i got a male(kind of)

I appreciate the comment, but I've actually just started looking into this. I had a Sweet Tooth female go from glorious cola's to seed filled-nastiness, while everything else in the same tent wasn't pollinated at all. Everyone I mention it to suggests that I must have just missed a flower somewhere, and that the Sweet Tooth had to have been pollinated somehow. But I'm still skeptical, and this "apomixis" is what my research has turned up. It looks like there's a way (in other flowering plant species) that a plant can reproduce asexually by producing seed without ever having been pollinated...and the stuff I've read seems to suggest that the reverse can happen, too (a male plant growing buds). I keep hoping some botanist or some other equally qualified individual will stumble through here to confirm or deny my suspicion, but it hasn't happened yet.

damned interesting this topic, i hadn't heard of apomixis, and now for a strange coincidence
got to looking at the tip of this female tip, and the very tip looks like there could be the beginnings of tiny seed pods
i looked closely because i didn't see pistils forming there like they were just underneath it
may just be some odd formation, but i will try to post a macro pic later

so, is this the world's tiniest female cola?
it looks strangely impressive in this macro, but doesn't quite make it to 1/2 inch

Not really relevant to the topic the OP started, if you ask me.

DumpsterKeeper said:

Not really relevant to the topic the OP started, if you ask me.

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no, this is on topic, this is a male reverse hermie, just at the very tip of the plant
you may have missed the prior post

Sorry asmithee but I think you leanred a new word and are overusing it, and out of context.

Yeah, I wanna know too, since I have just used such a plant to pollinate three females and they are definitely making seeds.

The pollen from my plant in the pictures I posted earlier was sterile.

I have been reading that most are sterile. I have a backwards male that I will be working with soon. I hope it's not sterile because it smells extremely dank. I mean it stinks way more than any female I have.

In that link I posted, he used a backwards male and it worked great. The backwards males are recessive and they let the females shine through.

homebrewer said:

The pollen from my plant in the pictures I posted earlier was sterile.

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Sterile as in it did not produce seeds or sterile as in it produced seeds but the seeds wouldn't germinate?