Calcium Carbonate & CaCO3

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
This has been a study of mine for some weeks, and I'm finding there's two camps to this subject..

the first camp says there's plenty of Calcium in tap water for the ladies to absorb, no need to add it in the soil amendment.

The other camp says, no way, my tap water ppm is up the roof with calcium carbonate and I'm still having to use the CalMag and/or Dolomite Lime.

So I've read it in a couple of sites that Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) found in tap water is not as soluble for plant uptake as one would think.

"Calcium carbonate appears as white, odorless powder or colorless crystals. Practically insoluble in water".

"Calcium carbonate has a very low solubility in pure water (15 mg/L at 25°C), but in rainwater saturated with carbon dioxide, its solubility increases due to the formation of more soluble calcium bicarbonate. Calcium carbonate is unusual in that its solubility increases as the temperature of the water decreases".

So I decided to try out this Dolomite Lime by Down To Earth, and one if the main ingredients is ... Calcium Carbonate CaCO3.. o_O
Down to Earth Organic Prilled Dolomite Lime, 5 lb https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07N2X9BV2/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fabc_0111EYBFEZRFQGT9WNKE?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

interesting...
 

xtsho

Well-Known Member
In soil it breaks down over time becoming available to the plants. It's also a liming agent that is used to offset acidity, raise the pH and maintain the pH. You don't want it washing out too quickly. It's not like hydro where you need a water soluble form that's immediately available to the plant. If you're looking for a fast acting form of calcium there are better options like calcium chloride, calcium nitrate, etc... but not organic. Organic would be WSC easily made from eggshells and vinegar.

If you're building a soil there should be plenty of calcium if you're using any bone meal, shellfish meal, etc... I wouldn't worry too much about the solubility of calcium carbonate.
 

Weedvin

Well-Known Member
This has been a study of mine for some weeks, and I'm finding there's two camps to this subject..

the first camp says there's plenty of Calcium in tap water for the ladies to absorb, no need to add it in the soil amendment.

The other camp says, no way, my tap water ppm is up the roof with calcium carbonate and I'm still having to use the CalMag and/or Dolomite Lime.

So I've read it in a couple of sites that Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) found in tap water is not as soluble for plant uptake as one would think.

"Calcium carbonate appears as white, odorless powder or colorless crystals. Practically insoluble in water".

"Calcium carbonate has a very low solubility in pure water (15 mg/L at 25°C), but in rainwater saturated with carbon dioxide, its solubility increases due to the formation of more soluble calcium bicarbonate. Calcium carbonate is unusual in that its solubility increases as the temperature of the water decreases".

So I decided to try out this Dolomite Lime by Down To Earth, and one if the main ingredients is ... Calcium Carbonate CaCO3.. o_O
Down to Earth Organic Prilled Dolomite Lime, 5 lb https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07N2X9BV2/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fabc_0111EYBFEZRFQGT9WNKE?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

interesting...
Diatomacious Earth 19% calcium and trace nutrients.
 

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
In soil it breaks down over time becoming available to the plants. It's also a liming agent that is used to offset acidity, raise the pH and maintain the pH. You don't want it washing out too quickly. It's not like hydro where you need a water soluble form that's immediately available to the plant. If you're looking for a fast acting form of calcium there are better options like calcium chloride, calcium nitrate, etc... but not organic. Organic would be WSC easily made from eggshells and vinegar.

If you're building a soil there should be plenty of calcium if you're using any bone meal, shellfish meal, etc... I wouldn't worry too much about the solubility of calcium carbonate.
I'm using a proprietary amendment (Earth Dust) that seems to not have any calcium in it but one of the ingredients is steamed bone meal, I say "not" for the seemingly calcium deficiency my otherwise more than healthy grow is going through at the moment, purple stems on some, not on others. Maybe the steamed bone meal needs time to break down as you pointed out.
 

xtsho

Well-Known Member
I'm using a proprietary amendment (Earth Dust) that seems to not have any calcium in it but one of the ingredients is steamed bone meal, I say "not" for the seemingly calcium deficiency my otherwise more than healthy grow is going through at the moment, purple stems on some, not on others. Maybe the steamed bone meal needs time to break down as you pointed out.
You say purple stems on some but not others. Are the plants the same strain? Purple stems can be genetic and not a sign of any nutrient deficiency or excess.
 

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
You say purple stems on some but not others. Are the plants the same strain? Purple stems can be genetic and not a sign of any nutrient deficiency or excess.
yes, same strain, I think, almost sure, I'll have to double check, and I concur with the genetics thing, they're in the dark at the moment but I'm 98% sure a few of the same strain were either purple stemmed or not purple stemmed, what I've read so far on it is that this was a sure tell tail sign of calcium deficiency.

 
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kratos015

Well-Known Member
This has been a study of mine for some weeks, and I'm finding there's two camps to this subject..

the first camp says there's plenty of Calcium in tap water for the ladies to absorb, no need to add it in the soil amendment.

The other camp says, no way, my tap water ppm is up the roof with calcium carbonate and I'm still having to use the CalMag and/or Dolomite Lime.

So I've read it in a couple of sites that Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) found in tap water is not as soluble for plant uptake as one would think.

"Calcium carbonate appears as white, odorless powder or colorless crystals. Practically insoluble in water".

"Calcium carbonate has a very low solubility in pure water (15 mg/L at 25°C), but in rainwater saturated with carbon dioxide, its solubility increases due to the formation of more soluble calcium bicarbonate. Calcium carbonate is unusual in that its solubility increases as the temperature of the water decreases".

So I decided to try out this Dolomite Lime by Down To Earth, and one if the main ingredients is ... Calcium Carbonate CaCO3.. o_O
Down to Earth Organic Prilled Dolomite Lime, 5 lb https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07N2X9BV2/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fabc_0111EYBFEZRFQGT9WNKE?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

interesting...
That could be from people testing their PPMs with a meter, but not reading the actual water reports that indicate what those PPMs actually consist of. I find some people see 400ppm, and believe all 400ppm is the same thing, instead of a composition of different things. Take that 400ppm reading, won't mean that all 400ppm is CaCO3. Could be only 100-200ppm is CaCO3, and the remaining 200 ppms are other minerals/etc.

Highly doubt someone would still need lime/CalMag if their water was truly through the roof with CaCO3 specifically. My well water is through the roof with CaCO3, pH is ~8.5, and when I used lime in my soil in combination with this water, my soil's pH became alkaline (8.0+) and I had all sorts of issues because of it.

Water reports will sometimes have two separate readings for Ca; one is the actual PPMs of Ca itself, and the other is a worded something like "hardness as carbonate", shows the PPMs of CaCO3, as well as the pH range of the water itself. Some reports have no "hardness as carbonate" section, due to there being no CaCO3 in the water at all.

Not all Ca is CaCO3 exclusively, hence the different readings on the water report.


My well water has between 400-440 ppms, and the majority of those ppms are in fact CaCO3. I'm surrounded by limestone and quartz, whatever is in the ground will be in my well water. Turns out, my water is so high in CaCO3 that it buffers my soil.

I haven't used dolomite lime/OSF or any soil buffers in nearly 3 years now, my water buffers the pH of my soil for me now. How did I discover this? Took 3 indoor grows before I realized it was my water fucking my plants up.

Symptoms were all over the place for me; N toxicity, Ca def, P def, K def, Mg def, all appearing roughly at the same time. Nothing fixed it. Took me months to finally decide to check the pH of the runoff and the soil itself. pH was between 8.0-8.5, so something was buffering my soil too high.

I finally realized it was CaCO3 when I saw scaling on the bottom of my fabric pots (pictured below), the same scaling one sees on their faucets. All over the bottom of my pots. Was using the same soil and growing methods as I was in California once I moved out here. Problem was, I didn't have well water in California, so I never saw this issue until I moved out here and changed water supplies. Embarrassing how long it took me to figure out the problem was my water.

I fixed the problem by creating an entirely new soil mix, devoid of any lime/buffering agent. Solved the problem instantly. Perfect 6.5-7.0 pH using nothing but my water. I have zero Ca inputs in my soil, only Ca that gets in my soil is if/when I top dress with Bone Meal, otherwise no Ca inputs. My water is sufficient for buffering pH, and by proxy, provides sufficient Ca levels for my soil.


While most municipal water sources (public water) do have some levels of CaCO3 in it, it typically isn't enough to act as a buffer for the water. Many municipal reports will have the "hardness as CaCO3" on it, but the PPMs are typically low, with specified pH ranges being 6.5-7.2 pH. So, while there is CaCO3 in a lot of water, it is often not enough to buffer pH.



As your article points out, tiny particles. "Calcium carbonate appears as white, odorless powder or colorless crystals. Practically insoluble in water"

Small white crystals barely visible to the naked eye. Those little tiny crystals aren't going to buffer ones pH into alkalinity. Its when those tiny crystals aren't able to flow out of your pots, and accumulate in one's soil as salt build up that one starts to see problems. (Keep in mind, CaCO3 is technically a salt).

As the article also mentions, CaCO3 is insoluble in water. It is in the water, but not soluble. So, any water that evaporates will leave the CaCO3 crystals behind. Should enough of these crystals combine into salts, this is when they can potentially cause problems.

If the CaCO3 is <200ppms, typically one won't ever see CaCO3 salts build up in their soil. >400ppm is typically where these salt build ups manifest. Those salts are the same thing as scaling on one's faucets. If one doesn't have scaling on faucets, likely won't have issues with your soil either. People with <200ppms likely take months until their fixtures scale up, where as my water it happens within a matter of weeks.

Here's a few photos of my fabric pots, and how they look after being re-used with this water. The 25g pots are ~5 years old, and the 3g pots are between 1-2 years old. Brand new pots will have this scaling on it after just one single grow.

20211030_102546(1).jpg20211030_102621(1).jpg20211031_161139.jpg

See all those white spots? Salt build up from those tiny white particles mentioned in the article you cited.



This is why I find a lot of people have failures with organic growing. The BAS recipe specifies using RO water if I'm not mistaken? The BAS recipe accounts for the RO stripping minerals, and adds them into the soil to account for the minerals stripped from the RO water.

Problems come in when people use the BAS recipe, but don't use RO water. The minerals in their tap water combine with the minerals they added from the BAS recipe, and it begins causing issues with lockouts. Those lockouts are almost always caused by excess Ca, which locks out our K, Mg, and P.

That's because the BAS recipe has Crab Meal, Gypsum, and Oyster Shell Flower, all of which have loads of Ca. Combine all that with tap water that has enough Ca in it, and one is likely to experience issues with lockout/high pH, curse living soil, and go back to hydro.


tl;dr: Read your water reports! What we as growers should be most interested in is the "hardness as CaCO3/carbonate" line on the report. If that line doesn't exist, you have no CaCO3 in your water. If it does exist, it will specify the pH range of the water, as well as the ppms of CaCO3 specifically (not Ca). If your report shows the pH is above 8.0 because of the CaCO3, you'll either need to use a different water source, or consider using your water as a buffer like I am. Much cheaper and simpler to use one's water as a buffer instead of going RO. Work with what you have, not against it.

Regards.
 

myke

Well-Known Member
one is likely to experience issues with lockout/high pH, curse living soil, and go back to hydro.

Haha so true.My tap in winter is around 180 mg/L CaCo3
 

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
one is likely to experience issues with lockout/high pH, curse living soil, and go back to hydro.

Haha so true.My tap in winter is around 180 mg/L CaCo3
These are my calcium carbonate tap water readings...and not sure what it means...
Screenshot_20211208-113640.png
 
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Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
Reddish and purplish stems can also be caused by light and are not a concern if so. If the stems of the upper leaves are purple and the lower stems green it’s usually light related, kinds like a sunburn.
Thanks, I'm learning a lot here. I did get an RO unit but am hesitant in using it at the moment. I might just play out this grow just using the tap water. And as mentioned above (I think I mentioned it here, on so many threads right now), dropping the lights 25% has done wonders to the ladies. I'm still in disbelief. They're praying and have wonderful color like never before.
 

JHake

Well-Known Member
The Effect of Root Media on Root-zone pH, Calcium, and Magnesium Management in Containers with Impatiens

There's a good piece of info.

In my personal experience, the CaCo3 of my water does nothing for the Calcium requirements of my plants. I even ran a DWC once and tried the nutrient solution without Calcium, and plant's were clearly lacking it. Once added to the reservoir, change was fast and very visible.

The "general" water analysis says about 400mg/L of CaCo3, but my readings don't exceed the 180-200ppm. And not all of those ppm come from CaCo3.

Nowadays i use gypsum a lot.
 

Rurumo

Well-Known Member
I don't even consider purple stems anymore as long as the leaves are healthy and growth is good. My tap is 140 ppm with about 50 ppm of calcium and I always feed my tomatoes outside just fish emulsion, and occasionally supplement epsom salts. I never add calcium and my calcium levels always test out as normal-high and I never get blossom end rot. Some of the calcium in tap water is definitely being used. I did away with calmag inside and just stick with epsom salts for additional mag. Kratos is right, those municipal water test reports are goldmines of information.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
These are my calcium carbonate tap water readings...and not sure what it means...
View attachment 5042935
I remember you now, I've looked at this exact water report in the past. If I recall correctly, I recommended you go buy some Peat Moss and let it soak in your tap water, and record the pH levels to see if your water is buffering or not. From what I read on your water report, I do in fact believe your water is causing alkaline pH related issues.

The only way to confirm it is to do the test I mentioned above. Soak Peat Moss (3.0-4.0 pH) with your tap water (7.6-9.1 depending on your region, so your report says. Too alkaline). The alkaline tap water (7.6-9.1 city dependent) will buffer the pH of the peat.

Best way to confirm if your water buffers? pH test! Take your well water, put it in a glass, and pH it. It'll pH 8.0+ for sure, just as the water report says. After this, dump lemon juice or vinegar into the solution until the pH color shows 3.0-4.0 pH. Then, wait 24 hours. If the color of the solution returns to 8.0 pH, then your water is a buffer.

Make your own soil without dolomite lime or OSF, let the soil soak in the water for 24 hours, then pH the water solution. The pH should read ~6.0-7.0 pH and will stay that way after 24 hours because your water is doing the job of the Dolomite Lime.



As for how to analyze the info in your water report.

See how on the top row, the 3rd, 4th, and 5th columns say "Cove Communities Range", "ID No.8 Range", and "ID No 11 Range". Footnotes say the following:

"(2) Cove Communities includes the communities of Rancho Mirage, Thousand Palms, Palm
Desert, Indian Wells, La Quinta, Mecca, Bombay Beach, North Shore, Hot Mineral Spa; and
portions of Bermuda Dunes, Cathedral City, Indio, Oasis, Riverside County, Thermal, and
Valerie Jean.
(3) ID No. 8 includes the communities of Indio Hills, Sky Valley; and select areas within and
adjacent to Desert Hot Springs.
(4) ID No. 11 includes the communities of Desert Shores, Salton Sea Beach and Salton City"

When we last talked, I believe you said you were Desert Hot Springs specifically? That means you want to look at the ID No.8 column.

See the row 3 rows below "hardness as CaCO3" that says "pH, units"?

According to the chart, the pH for ID No.8 is 8.0-8.1 pH, similar to my well water's pH.

Regardless of what region you live in though, the minimum pH of any water in Coachella Valley is 7.6 according to this report.

So in summation, according to your water report, you've effectively been watering with water that has pH levels of between 7.6-9.1 pH! This is akin to pouring pH Up into RO water, and using that to water your plants. Same exact thing.

This is how it went for me. Veg is great, and things go wonderful for the first 4 weeks or so. Eventually, those Ca "rust" spots start showing up. Then your leaves begin "praying" for Magnesium, which is now locked out. K gets locked out next, and then finally P. The lack of Ca, Mg, and K also locks out some of your micro nutes; such as Iron.

By the time 12/12 is triggered, the plants are showing all of the above symptoms. The leaves start twisting and contorting, showing signs of chlorosis. Bud sights stay small, do not grow very large, and will be extremely airy. At this point, people typically only notice the Mg def, and spray Epsom Salts like mad hoping it corrects the issue. However, Ca is still in excess, and your P and K are still locked out regardless of using the Epsom Salts.

This is because with each and every watering you do, you're increasing the pH.

I heavily recommend you do the tests I listed at the top of this post.

I guarantee that if you build your own soil that has zero dolomite lime/Oyster Shell Flower/buffer then you will experience successful results. Your water is the buffer here, no need to add lime. The lime/OSF is combining with the CaCO3 in your water, and is resulting in CaCO3 salt build up, which is resulting in alkaline pH levels that are 8.0 and above.


Thanks, I'm learning a lot here. I did get an RO unit but am hesitant in using it at the moment. I might just play out this grow just using the tap water. And as mentioned above (I think I mentioned it here, on so many threads right now), dropping the lights 25% has done wonders to the ladies. I'm still in disbelief. They're praying and have wonderful color like never before.
Common misconception, actually. People mistakenly attribute the "praying" to the plants enjoying the light, but the plants are actually "praying" for Magnesium.

"Magnesium is the powerhouse behind photosynthesis in plants. Without magnesium, chlorophyll cannot capture sun energy needed for photosynthesis. In short, magnesium is required to give leaves their green color.

Read more at Gardening Know How: Fixing Magnesium Deficiency in Plants: How Magnesium Affects Plant Growth https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/garden-how-to/soil-fertilizers/fixing-magnesium-deficiency.htm"

This is why the plants "pray", because the leaves can't capture the sun's rays.

This is why you experienced improvements by dimming your lights: less light = less photosynthesis = less Mg needed = less likely to see Mg deficiencies.

Instead of dimming your light, you could supplement with Mg in the form of Epsom Salts, or better yet Langbeinite.

However, I believe that your Mg deficiencies aren't actual deficiencies, but lockout from your pH being too alkaline.

Gonna be a total pain in the ass, but you're going to have to create entirely new soil without any buffers. Otherwise, the issue will never correct itself.

Working with your water is the best plan here, however if you're unwilling/unable to create a new soil mix with ZERO buffers then you will have to find a new water source. Your water, like mine, is effectively pH Up.

Regards.
 

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
I remember you now, I've looked at this exact water report in the past. If I recall correctly, I recommended you go buy some Peat Moss and let it soak in your tap water, and record the pH levels to see if your water is buffering or not. From what I read on your water report, I do in fact believe your water is causing alkaline pH related issues.

The only way to confirm it is to do the test I mentioned above. Soak Peat Moss (3.0-4.0 pH) with your tap water (7.6-9.1 depending on your region, so your report says. Too alkaline). The alkaline tap water (7.6-9.1 city dependent) will buffer the pH of the peat.

Best way to confirm if your water buffers? pH test! Take your well water, put it in a glass, and pH it. It'll pH 8.0+ for sure, just as the water report says. After this, dump lemon juice or vinegar into the solution until the pH color shows 3.0-4.0 pH. Then, wait 24 hours. If the color of the solution returns to 8.0 pH, then your water is a buffer.

Make your own soil without dolomite lime or OSF, let the soil soak in the water for 24 hours, then pH the water solution. The pH should read ~6.0-7.0 pH and will stay that way after 24 hours because your water is doing the job of the Dolomite Lime.



As for how to analyze the info in your water report.

See how on the top row, the 3rd, 4th, and 5th columns say "Cove Communities Range", "ID No.8 Range", and "ID No 11 Range". Footnotes say the following:

"(2) Cove Communities includes the communities of Rancho Mirage, Thousand Palms, Palm
Desert, Indian Wells, La Quinta, Mecca, Bombay Beach, North Shore, Hot Mineral Spa; and
portions of Bermuda Dunes, Cathedral City, Indio, Oasis, Riverside County, Thermal, and
Valerie Jean.
(3) ID No. 8 includes the communities of Indio Hills, Sky Valley; and select areas within and
adjacent to Desert Hot Springs.
(4) ID No. 11 includes the communities of Desert Shores, Salton Sea Beach and Salton City"

When we last talked, I believe you said you were Desert Hot Springs specifically? That means you want to look at the ID No.8 column.

See the row 3 rows below "hardness as CaCO3" that says "pH, units"?

According to the chart, the pH for ID No.8 is 8.0-8.1 pH, similar to my well water's pH.

Regardless of what region you live in though, the minimum pH of any water in Coachella Valley is 7.6 according to this report.

So in summation, according to your water report, you've effectively been watering with water that has pH levels of between 7.6-9.1 pH! This is akin to pouring pH Up into RO water, and using that to water your plants. Same exact thing.

This is how it went for me. Veg is great, and things go wonderful for the first 4 weeks or so. Eventually, those Ca "rust" spots start showing up. Then your leaves begin "praying" for Magnesium, which is now locked out. K gets locked out next, and then finally P. The lack of Ca, Mg, and K also locks out some of your micro nutes; such as Iron.

By the time 12/12 is triggered, the plants are showing all of the above symptoms. The leaves start twisting and contorting, showing signs of chlorosis. Bud sights stay small, do not grow very large, and will be extremely airy. At this point, people typically only notice the Mg def, and spray Epsom Salts like mad hoping it corrects the issue. However, Ca is still in excess, and your P and K are still locked out regardless of using the Epsom Salts.

This is because with each and every watering you do, you're increasing the pH.

I heavily recommend you do the tests I listed at the top of this post.

I guarantee that if you build your own soil that has zero dolomite lime/Oyster Shell Flower/buffer then you will experience successful results. Your water is the buffer here, no need to add lime. The lime/OSF is combining with the CaCO3 in your water, and is resulting in CaCO3 salt build up, which is resulting in alkaline pH levels that are 8.0 and above.




Common misconception, actually. People mistakenly attribute the "praying" to the plants enjoying the light, but the plants are actually "praying" for Magnesium.

"Magnesium is the powerhouse behind photosynthesis in plants. Without magnesium, chlorophyll cannot capture sun energy needed for photosynthesis. In short, magnesium is required to give leaves their green color.

Read more at Gardening Know How: Fixing Magnesium Deficiency in Plants: How Magnesium Affects Plant Growth https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/garden-how-to/soil-fertilizers/fixing-magnesium-deficiency.htm"

This is why the plants "pray", because the leaves can't capture the sun's rays.

This is why you experienced improvements by dimming your lights: less light = less photosynthesis = less Mg needed = less likely to see Mg deficiencies.

Instead of dimming your light, you could supplement with Mg in the form of Epsom Salts, or better yet Langbeinite.

However, I believe that your Mg deficiencies aren't actual deficiencies, but lockout from your pH being too alkaline.

Gonna be a total pain in the ass, but you're going to have to create entirely new soil without any buffers. Otherwise, the issue will never correct itself.

Working with your water is the best plan here, however if you're unwilling/unable to create a new soil mix with ZERO buffers then you will have to find a new water source. Your water, like mine, is effectively pH Up.

Regards.
Here's the thing, I'm on my 2nd grow. (My first grow was nearly carbon copy of what you've been going through with your past problems that you've now since corrected) and with this 2nd grow I've decided to go "organic", meaning to me..no synthetic nutes. In fact I threw them all away ($300 worth) except for the Hydroponics Cal Mag. And for soil amendments I'm going with proprietary source of Earth Dust made by the Green Sunshine Company. The Base amendment has steamed bone meal in it, the Boost (Flower) amendment has the bone meal and organic limestone in the mix. Using these amendments there's no way I cannot add (or undo) a calcium product in the soil. And I'm 4 to 5 weeks into this grow so redoing the soil isn't an option, don't want to stress these ladies anymore. I did do the test but not with the peat moss. I ph'd the water to 4.5 using pH Down and let it sit for 48 hours. When I retested the tap water It was still 4.5. So I'm thinking the Calcium Carbonate is not a buffer at this point, but it does leave that unpopular limestone type build up, and that is my concern at the moment. Watering the pots with no runoff..yeah, it's gonna build up. So I might (or think) I just talked myself into using that RO unit. And I'm not convinced my soil is too alkaline. My ladies are the healthiest I've EVER seen them to be. And with just a simple reduction of light. I'm struggling or having trouble understanding how a healthy soil can have any Magnesium deficiency. And as organic soils go the pH can be anything at any given time is my understanding, that's how the living soil works, it see's a need and gets it by adjusting the ph at a point where the plant can uptake the needed nutrient. So for now, I'm gonna ride with the Earth Dust, and if at Flower I have the same problems.. then I'll tell you in front of everyone here...YOU WERE RIGHT. But until then, it's Earth Dust and managing the lights with some RO water in there somewhere.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
Here's the thing, I'm on my 2nd grow. (My first grow was nearly carbon copy of what you've been going through with your past problems that you've now since corrected) and with this 2nd grow I've decided to go "organic", meaning to me..no synthetic nutes. In fact I threw them all away ($300 worth) except for the Hydroponics Cal Mag. And for soil amendments I'm going with proprietary source of Earth Dust made by the Green Sunshine Company. The Base amendment has steamed bone meal in it, the Boost (Flower) amendment has the bone meal and organic limestone in the mix. Using these amendments there's no way I cannot add (or undo) a calcium product in the soil. And I'm 4 to 5 weeks into this grow so redoing the soil isn't an option, don't want to stress these ladies anymore. I did do the test but not with the peat moss. I ph'd the water to 4.5 using pH Down and let it sit for 48 hours. When I retested the tap water It was still 4.5. So I'm thinking the Calcium Carbonate is not a buffer at this point, but it does leave that unpopular limestone type build up, and that is my concern at the moment. Watering the pots with no runoff..yeah, it's gonna build up. So I might (or think) I just talked myself into using that RO unit. And I'm not convinced my soil is too alkaline. My ladies are the healthiest I've EVER seen them to be. And with just a simple reduction of light. I'm struggling or having trouble understanding how a healthy soil can have any Magnesium deficiency. And as organic soils go the pH can be anything at any given time is my understanding, that's how the living soil works, it see's a need and gets it by adjusting the ph at a point where the plant can uptake the needed nutrient. So for now, I'm gonna ride with the Earth Dust, and if at Flower I have the same problems.. then I'll tell you in front of everyone here...YOU WERE RIGHT. But until then, it's Earth Dust and managing the lights with some RO water in there somewhere.
No need for that, and hopefully that's not the vibe I've given off. Isn't about me being "right" so much as it is simply helping someone with an issue that has caused me great turmoil in the past. The only reason I'd celebrate "being right" is because it fixed someone's problem.

I wouldn't wish the issues I had on anyone, I'd be elated if I was wrong here. But from what I've read, and seen, this seems all too familiar to me. In fact, I'm only 2 hours away from you eastbound. Hop on the 10 fwy, go east for 2 hours, and I live on one of the small towns on the Arizona/California border. Why do I bring that up? Well, how similar do the rocks/mountains look in Coachella Valley, CA compared to Ehrenberg, Arizona? Very similar.

Just making sure I understand properly here.

"I ph'd the water to 4.5 using pH Down and let it sit for 48 hours. When I retested the tap water It was still 4.5"

You retested the tap water, as in you added more of the pH color dye into original solution? I'm confused here, and trying to understand things properly so as to hopefully provide insight.

Funny thing with Calcium. CaCO3 can cause alkaline pH issues. If you're not experiencing issues from alkaline pH, that just means you don't have enough CaCO3 to buffer your pH. I don't see how that's possible when I'm reading water reports showing the opposite; however it isn't about what I'm reading but about what you're observing and what you're going through.

Even if CaCO3 isn't causing alkaline pH, excess Calcium in one's water supply can still cause issues with Ca toxicity. Ca toxicity will lock out Mg, K, P, and Iron. That has nothing to do with alkalinity caused from CaCO3, excess Ca will still cause symptoms in a grow.

The "Earth Dust" product specifically has OSF in it, if I'm not mistaken. It still boggles my mind that an organic input company would put a buffer in the form of OSF in their mix, like they're setting people up for failure.

"I'm struggling or having trouble understanding how a healthy soil can have any Magnesium deficiency"
Well, when the plants use up all the Mg in your soil, what is replenishing those levels of Mg after the plants eat it? Very little organic inputs have Mg in them; dolomite lime, langbeinite, Epsom Salts, Basalt, and quality compost are some of the only natural sources of Magnesium available to us.

And unfortunately, you're spot on with this statement. A healthy soil won't have Mg issues, so if there's Mg issues, the soil is not healthy. Not trying to be a dick about it, or bust anyone's balls here, it is simply the fact of the matter. Not about insulting anyone, or making anyone feel bad. Perhaps I need to look into how I'm wording and phrasing things if I came across as offensive and contentious.

Here's Build-a-Soil's recipe from their site:


1 Part Organic Canadian Sphagnum Peatmoss
1 Part Premium Organic Compost
1 Part Premium Organic Aeration and Drainage (We use Rice hulls and Pumice)

Fertilizer Amendments Per Cubic Foot:

1/2 Cup Premium Organic Kelp Meal
1/2 Cup Premium Organic Neem Cake
1/2 Cup Premium Organic Crustacean Meal

Mineral Amendments Per Cubic Foot:

2 Cups Premium Natural Basalt Rock Dust
1 Cup Premium Organic Oyster Shell Flour
1 Cup Premium Organic Gypsum

As you can see, the only source of Mg in this recipe is from the Basalt. As you can also see above, basalt is a mineral. A mineral isn't going to decompose in a few cycles. The basalt takes years to fully decompose. So, with that in mind, if your soil has basalt in it, and you're experiencing Mg deficiencies, the soil is not healthy unfortunately. Something is locking out your Mg; if your soil has basalt in it, you should have zero Mg issues. If you're experiencing Mg issues with Basalt in your soil, something is locking the Mg out. Not trying to be a dick about it, that's just the fact of the matter.

And as organic soils go the pH can be anything at any given time is my understanding, that's how the living soil work
Partially correct. In a living soil, the pH will in fact fluctuate between 5.5-7.0 pH depending on the microbe:fungi ratios, and what specific microbes are processing specific inputs in the soil. You are correct that pH can be anything at any given time, but this assumes the soil is healthy. If your water truly is like mine, everything I just said goes straight out the window.

If your water is like mine, and is pretty much liquid dolomite lime, then all of the above is irrelevant. This is because the alkaline water is controlling your pH now, and not the microbes. Sure, the microbes will in fact control pH, and it will fluctuate between 5.5-7.0 pH. However, as said above, that all goes out the window when one is watering with water that has a pH of 7.5 or higher.

I'll be wishing you nothing but success and the best,

Regards.
 

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
No need for that, and hopefully that's not the vibe I've given off. Isn't about me being "right" so much as it is simply helping someone with an issue that has caused me great turmoil in the past. The only reason I'd celebrate "being right" is because it fixed someone's problem.

I wouldn't wish the issues I had on anyone, I'd be elated if I was wrong here. But from what I've read, and seen, this seems all too familiar to me. In fact, I'm only 2 hours away from you eastbound. Hop on the 10 fwy, go east for 2 hours, and I live on one of the small towns on the Arizona/California border. Why do I bring that up? Well, how similar do the rocks/mountains look in Coachella Valley, CA compared to Ehrenberg, Arizona? Very similar.

Just making sure I understand properly here.




You retested the tap water, as in you added more of the pH color dye into original solution? I'm confused here, and trying to understand things properly so as to hopefully provide insight.

Funny thing with Calcium. CaCO3 can cause alkaline pH issues. If you're not experiencing issues from alkaline pH, that just means you don't have enough CaCO3 to buffer your pH. I don't see how that's possible when I'm reading water reports showing the opposite; however it isn't about what I'm reading but about what you're observing and what you're going through.

Even if CaCO3 isn't causing alkaline pH, excess Calcium in one's water supply can still cause issues with Ca toxicity. Ca toxicity will lock out Mg, K, P, and Iron. That has nothing to do with alkalinity caused from CaCO3, excess Ca will still cause symptoms in a grow.

The "Earth Dust" product specifically has OSF in it, if I'm not mistaken. It still boggles my mind that an organic input company would put a buffer in the form of OSF in their mix, like they're setting people up for failure.



Well, when the plants use up all the Mg in your soil, what is replenishing those levels of Mg after the plants eat it? Very little organic inputs have Mg in them; dolomite lime, langbeinite, Epsom Salts, Basalt, and quality compost are some of the only natural sources of Magnesium available to us.

And unfortunately, you're spot on with this statement. A healthy soil won't have Mg issues, so if there's Mg issues, the soil is not healthy. Not trying to be a dick about it, or bust anyone's balls here, it is simply the fact of the matter. Not about insulting anyone, or making anyone feel bad. Perhaps I need to look into how I'm wording and phrasing things if I came across as offensive and contentious.

Here's Build-a-Soil's recipe from their site:


1 Part Organic Canadian Sphagnum Peatmoss
1 Part Premium Organic Compost
1 Part Premium Organic Aeration and Drainage (We use Rice hulls and Pumice)

Fertilizer Amendments Per Cubic Foot:

1/2 Cup Premium Organic Kelp Meal
1/2 Cup Premium Organic Neem Cake
1/2 Cup Premium Organic Crustacean Meal

Mineral Amendments Per Cubic Foot:

2 Cups Premium Natural Basalt Rock Dust
1 Cup Premium Organic Oyster Shell Flour
1 Cup Premium Organic Gypsum

As you can see, the only source of Mg in this recipe is from the Basalt. As you can also see above, basalt is a mineral. A mineral isn't going to decompose in a few cycles. The basalt takes years to fully decompose. So, with that in mind, if your soil has basalt in it, and you're experiencing Mg deficiencies, the soil is not healthy unfortunately. Something is locking out your Mg; if your soil has basalt in it, you should have zero Mg issues. If you're experiencing Mg issues with Basalt in your soil, something is locking the Mg out. Not trying to be a dick about it, that's just the fact of the matter.



Partially correct. In a living soil, the pH will in fact fluctuate between 5.5-7.0 pH depending on the microbe:fungi ratios, and what specific microbes are processing specific inputs in the soil. You are correct that pH can be anything at any given time, but this assumes the soil is healthy. If your water truly is like mine, everything I just said goes straight out the window.

If your water is like mine, and is pretty much liquid dolomite lime, then all of the above is irrelevant. This is because the alkaline water is controlling your pH now, and not the microbes. Sure, the microbes will in fact control pH, and it will fluctuate between 5.5-7.0 pH. However, as said above, that all goes out the window when one is watering with water that has a pH of 7.5 or higher.

I'll be wishing you nothing but success and the best,

Regards.
Oh sorry, it was probably my wording, no I appreciate your input here, I'm happy you chimed in with your thoughts on this. I love to talk shop and seems like you do too. I have to do some last minute shopping here but will answer you first question real quick, what I did for the test was pour some tap water in a cup. then using hydroponics pH Down, I phd it to 4.5. Sat it top of the fridge. Then after 2 days, I checked the pH it was still 4.5. I'm tempted to do this test again using a different source of pH adjuster. Because there is a little doubt there. Again I'm really happy that you joined this discussion.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
Oh sorry, it was probably my wording, no I appreciate your input here, I'm happy you chimed in with your thoughts on this. I love to talk shop and seems like you do too. I have to do some last minute shopping here but will answer you first question real quick, what I did for the test was pour some tap water in a cup. then using hydroponics pH Down, I phd it to 4.5. Sat it top of the fridge. Then after 2 days, I checked the pH it was still 4.5. I'm tempted to do this test again using a different source of pH adjuster. Because there is a little doubt there. Again I'm really happy that you joined this discussion.
Appreciate that. I know sometimes I word things improperly and it puts off a bad vibe. I'm always stoked when people give me the opportunity to explain I meant no harm with my words.

2 days is WAY more than enough time though, that's bizarre the pH didn't change. Definitely wouldn't hurt to try the experiment again just to be sure, but that's bizarre your pH didn't change..

Shit, wait a minute. In the first thread where we talked weeks ago, didn't you say you have a well?

Well, I'm the dumbass here in fact. If you are on a well, then that means water reports are useless here. Those water reports are based on city/municipal sources of water; if you are on a well, you are not a part of the city water, which means that water reports here are completely useless.

Only way you'll know what is in your water is to have your well's water tested individually. Obviously expensive, and typically not worth spending the money on.

Regardless of the CaCO3, as I was pointing out above, excess Ca will cause issues similar to alkaline pH because the nutrients being locked out are similar in both scenarios. I've also noticed many people on forums, and in my own life, that experience issues with excess Ca levels.

As you stated above, keep riding the grow out, observe the reactions and results, and go from there. I'm going to be the first to wish you success, and the harvest that you're hoping for and expecting comes to fruition!

If alkaline pH isn't the issue here, it would seem that excess Ca could be the issue here instead. If you still notice Mg, K, and P lockouts, the issue is too many Ca inputs.

As @Rurumo stated in his reply


My tap is 140 ppm with about 50 ppm of calcium and I always feed my tomatoes outside just fish emulsion, and occasionally supplement epsom salts. I never add calcium and my calcium levels always test out as normal-high and I never get blossom end rot. Some of the calcium in tap water is definitely being used. I did away with calmag inside and just stick with epsom salts for additional mag.
Low PPMs, and not only does he not need to supplement Calcium, but he does have to supplement with Mg (epsom salts) occasionally.

@Rurumo , are there any other inputs in your soil that have Ca in it? Have you omitted Ca from your soil entirely as I have? Hope you don't mind responding, I feel that your answer would help provide context for the OP's issues.

I'm the same as you though. I've removed all Ca inputs, using nothing but my water to supply Ca. I still have to supplement extra Mg, but I've stopped using Epsom Salts in favor of Langbeinite.



All the best.
 

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
Appreciate that. I know sometimes I word things improperly and it puts off a bad vibe. I'm always stoked when people give me the opportunity to explain I meant no harm with my words.

2 days is WAY more than enough time though, that's bizarre the pH didn't change. Definitely wouldn't hurt to try the experiment again just to be sure, but that's bizarre your pH didn't change..

Shit, wait a minute. In the first thread where we talked weeks ago, didn't you say you have a well?

Well, I'm the dumbass here in fact. If you are on a well, then that means water reports are useless here. Those water reports are based on city/municipal sources of water; if you are on a well, you are not a part of the city water, which means that water reports here are completely useless.

Only way you'll know what is in your water is to have your well's water tested individually. Obviously expensive, and typically not worth spending the money on.

Regardless of the CaCO3, as I was pointing out above, excess Ca will cause issues similar to alkaline pH because the nutrients being locked out are similar in both scenarios. I've also noticed many people on forums, and in my own life, that experience issues with excess Ca levels.

As you stated above, keep riding the grow out, observe the reactions and results, and go from there. I'm going to be the first to wish you success, and the harvest that you're hoping for and expecting comes to fruition!

If alkaline pH isn't the issue here, it would seem that excess Ca could be the issue here instead. If you still notice Mg, K, and P lockouts, the issue is too many Ca inputs.

As @Rurumo stated in his reply




Low PPMs, and not only does he not need to supplement Calcium, but he does have to supplement with Mg (epsom salts) occasionally.

@Rurumo , are there any other inputs in your soil that have Ca in it? Have you omitted Ca from your soil entirely as I have? Hope you don't mind responding, I feel that your answer would help provide context for the OP's issues.

I'm the same as you though. I've removed all Ca inputs, using nothing but my water to supply Ca. I still have to supplement extra Mg, but I've stopped using Epsom Salts in favor of Langbeinite.



All the best.
Nope not well water, I'm here in city of Coachella. My Avatar is the 6th street shop where I get my pre rolls from :)
 

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
Appreciate that. I know sometimes I word things improperly and it puts off a bad vibe. I'm always stoked when people give me the opportunity to explain I meant no harm with my words.

2 days is WAY more than enough time though, that's bizarre the pH didn't change. Definitely wouldn't hurt to try the experiment again just to be sure, but that's bizarre your pH didn't change..

Shit, wait a minute. In the first thread where we talked weeks ago, didn't you say you have a well?

Well, I'm the dumbass here in fact. If you are on a well, then that means water reports are useless here. Those water reports are based on city/municipal sources of water; if you are on a well, you are not a part of the city water, which means that water reports here are completely useless.

Only way you'll know what is in your water is to have your well's water tested individually. Obviously expensive, and typically not worth spending the money on.

Regardless of the CaCO3, as I was pointing out above, excess Ca will cause issues similar to alkaline pH because the nutrients being locked out are similar in both scenarios. I've also noticed many people on forums, and in my own life, that experience issues with excess Ca levels.

As you stated above, keep riding the grow out, observe the reactions and results, and go from there. I'm going to be the first to wish you success, and the harvest that you're hoping for and expecting comes to fruition!

If alkaline pH isn't the issue here, it would seem that excess Ca could be the issue here instead. If you still notice Mg, K, and P lockouts, the issue is too many Ca inputs.

As @Rurumo stated in his reply




Low PPMs, and not only does he not need to supplement Calcium, but he does have to supplement with Mg (epsom salts) occasionally.

@Rurumo , are there any other inputs in your soil that have Ca in it? Have you omitted Ca from your soil entirely as I have? Hope you don't mind responding, I feel that your answer would help provide context for the OP's issues.

I'm the same as you though. I've removed all Ca inputs, using nothing but my water to supply Ca. I still have to supplement extra Mg, but I've stopped using Epsom Salts in favor of Langbeinite.



All the best.
Always awesome to read your posts man. Oh, but he's a she, lol.

I've become a fan of Langeinite too. I think citric acid can help a little too with high Ca. I don't know, but I've got Ca in my well water and your posts have helped a lot with it.
 
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