Calcium Carbonate & CaCO3

Week4@inCharge

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
kratos015 said:
Exactly this. Whatever doesn't get absorbed by the plants will get caught in the runoff of the water upon watering.

RO water will certainly work. But, I prefer using Langbeinite because it is much cheaper in the long run, as it allows one to use the water in their favor by working with the water instead of against it.

A 50lb bag of Langbeinite can be had for $80-$100 on Amazon and will last the average grower a lifetime, where as a legit RO system costs $300+ and results in tons of wasted water.

I recommend reading the article that I linked to in my last post, it'll provide much more insight and explanation than I could as to why Langbeinite works as well as it does.

Regards.
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Will do, thanks for the info.

Updated: I had ordered a box of the Langbeinite (just within this hour) and then remembered that I'm trying out this new dry amendment product with my current grow. I'm doing a few things different like cycle watering practices, filtered water, foliar sprays, and this proprietary dry amendment pack from Pride Lands. It has Langbeinite in it. So I canceled the Langbeinite order from Amazon. Now if things go south in a couple of weeks then for sure I'll grab the Down To Earth Langbeinite for the next run.
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kratos015

kratos015

Well-Known Member
Week4@inCharge said:
Will do, thanks for the info.

Updated: I had ordered a box of the Langbeinite (just within this hour) and then remembered that I'm trying out this new dry amendment product with my current grow. I'm doing a few things different like cycle watering practices, filtered water, foliar sprays, and this proprietary dry amendment pack from Pride Lands. It has Langbeinite in it. So I canceled the Langbeinite order from Amazon. Now if things go south in a couple of weeks then for sure I'll grab the Down To Earth Langbeinite for the next run.
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Likely won't be enough to do the trick. Needs to be pure Langbeinite, not just a tiny amount that is part of an amendment mix. Won't be enough to break apart the salts, most likely.

Pure Langbeinite has 22% Sulfur from all the Sulfate (SO4) in it. Your mix likely has 10-12%, at best. It isn't so much the Langbeinite itself that does the trick, but the Sulfate content in it.

Worth a try, I suppose. However, 5lb of Langbeinite is only around $20 and will last the average grower multiple years. Personally, I'd rather spend the $20 on a for sure thing.

Regards.
 
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pahpah-cee

Well-Known Member
@kratos015

thank you very much for taking the time to analyze my report and for writing such a great detailed response explaining things.

I’ve been chasing these issues for a while now. I definitely get that calcium build up on my bags after one run. Ive been fighting these problems with the occasional R/O flush and by adding a bunch of citric acid, bone meal flushes and epsom salt to bandaid the ph issues and mg deficiencies that spring up.

I grabbed some langbeinite to begin top dressing as you recommended. I’ll ditch the epsom salt. I’ve been building coots mix so I will ditch the lime (after I use up my 120gal of soil I already prepped).

Um last thing; industrial waste?! what the fuck. I knew water in LA is bad but that sounds pretty bad. I’m glad I invested in a RO system a while back. Not sure how I feel about my kids drinking that sludge.
 
Week4@inCharge

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
kratos015 said:
Likely won't be enough to do the trick. Needs to be pure Langbeinite, not just a tiny amount that is part of an amendment mix. Won't be enough to break apart the salts, most likely.

Pure Langbeinite has 22% Sulfur from all the Sulfate (SO4) in it. Your mix likely has 10-12%, at best. It isn't so much the Langbeinite itself that does the trick, but the Sulfate content in it.

Worth a try, I suppose. However, 5lb of Langbeinite is only around $20 and will last the average grower multiple years. Personally, I'd rather spend the $20 on a for sure thing.

Regards.
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Yeah thanks for the input, I have it saved on my Amazon want list just in case. Hoping for the best preparing for the worst. Happy Growing
 
kratos015

kratos015

Well-Known Member
pahpah-cee said:
@kratos015

thank you very much for taking the time to analyze my report and for writing such a great detailed response explaining things.

I’ve been chasing these issues for a while now. I definitely get that calcium build up on my bags after one run. Ive been fighting these problems with the occasional R/O flush and by adding a bunch of citric acid, bone meal flushes and epsom salt to bandaid the ph issues and mg deficiencies that spring up.

I grabbed some langbeinite to begin top dressing as you recommended. I’ll ditch the epsom salt. I’ve been building coots mix so I will ditch the lime (after I use up my 120gal of soil I already prepped).

Um last thing; industrial waste?! what the fuck. I knew water in LA is bad but that sounds pretty bad. I’m glad I invested in a RO system a while back. Not sure how I feel about my kids drinking that sludge.
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Citric acid does help with some people, especially if the hardness in ppm is below 300. The only issue with Citric Acid as a solution to this issue is that one needs to always have Citric acid on hand, and use it constantly. Where as the Langbeinite only needs to be applied once or twice a month. The Langbeinite/sulfates themselves don't lower the pH, simply break apart the CaCO3 salt build up that results in excessive alkalinity in one's pH. Putting Langbeinite in your tap water won't lower the water's pH by itself, but by proxy of the CaCO3 being broken apart. I worded that kind of awkwardly, so hopefully that makes sense how I worded it.

The term "industrial waste" is a lot less shocking and frightening than it sounds, at least in this scenario. The definition for "industrial waste" that I found is: "Industrial waste is the waste produced by industrial activity which includes any material that is rendered useless during a manufacturing process such as that of factories, mills, and mining operations."

While that does sound scary at first, the "industry" that is likely being referred to is that of mining operations. So that "industrial waste" is likely just the waste product from mining and shouldn't be a cause for health concerns. Water Districts are extremely meticulous in how they treat water, so I highly doubt the "waste" is anything toxic.

All the best.
 
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pahpah-cee

Well-Known Member
kratos015 said:
Citric acid does help with some people, especially if the hardness in ppm is below 300. The only issue with Citric Acid as a solution to this issue is that one needs to always have Citric acid on hand, and use it constantly. Where as the Langbeinite only needs to be applied once or twice a month. The Langbeinite/sulfates themselves don't lower the pH, simply break apart the CaCO3 salt build up that results in excessive alkalinity in one's pH. Putting Langbeinite in your tap water won't lower the water's pH by itself, but by proxy of the CaCO3 being broken apart. I worded that kind of awkwardly, so hopefully that makes sense how I worded it.

The term "industrial waste" is a lot less shocking and frightening than it sounds, at least in this scenario. The definition for "industrial waste" that I found is: "Industrial waste is the waste produced by industrial activity which includes any material that is rendered useless during a manufacturing process such as that of factories, mills, and mining operations."

While that does sound scary at first, the "industry" that is likely being referred to is that of mining operations. So that "industrial waste" is likely just the waste product from mining and shouldn't be a cause for health concerns. Water Districts are extremely meticulous in how they treat water, so I highly doubt the "waste" is anything toxic.

All the best.
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the citric acid is working but I’d rather not be PH’ing my water when growing in soil. I’ll definitely switch to the langbeinite and not PH my water down. I’ve notice that if I PH my water and wait a day it’s basically back at the starting PH. The water is buffering like you mentioned previously. This occurs with citric acid and phosphoric acid.

breaking down the CaCO3 makes sense with how you’re explaining it. I think this is why liquid bonemeal was helping me as well. From what I read the bonemeal will bind with the salt build up.

Thanks for clearing up the industrial waste as well.
 
Week4@inCharge

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
And just read it's not a good idea to use dolomite limestone and Langbeinite together or you'll get toxic levels of Magnesium... well crap, next grow I guess.
 
PadawanWarrior

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
Week4@inCharge said:
And just read it's not a good idea to use dolomite limestone and Langbeinite together or you'll get toxic levels of Magnesium... well crap, next grow I guess.
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They also have potassium sulfate which doesn't have the Mg. I just got some of that to mess with.
pahpah-cee said:
the citric acid is working but I’d rather not be PH’ing my water when growing in soil. I’ll definitely switch to the langbeinite and not PH my water down. I’ve notice that if I PH my water and wait a day it’s basically back at the starting PH. The water is buffering like you mentioned previously. This occurs with citric acid and phosphoric acid.

breaking down the CaCO3 makes sense with how you’re explaining it. I think this is why liquid bonemeal was helping me as well. From what I read the bonemeal will bind with the salt build up.

Thanks for clearing up the industrial waste as well.
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I thought liquid bone meal is mostly Calcium Carbonate. Not sure how that would help lower the levels. But maybe I'm missing something. I'll wait till Kratos answers your question.
 
Week4@inCharge

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
PadawanWarrior said:
They also have potassium sulfate which doesn't have the Mg. I just got some of that to mess with.
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I'm not experienced enough to measure out this stuff so that it doesn't "imbalance" the soil NPK. The proprietary mix I'm using is 2-5-5 so safe to use without worrying of over doing it. Now with this 0-0-22... easy to mess up a pot...or am I over thinking it.
 
PadawanWarrior

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
Week4@inCharge said:
I'm not experienced enough to measure out this stuff so that it doesn't "imbalance" the soil NPK. The proprietary mix I'm using is 2-5-5 so safe to use without worrying of over doing it. Now with this 0-0-22... easy to mess up a pot...or am I over thinking it.
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Just don't use a ton of it. Kratos is the man here. I've only been experimenting with Langbeinite for a little while. The potassium sulfate is like 0-0-50 but I just got that so don't have any actual experience yet. I did have some issues using Langbeinite a couple times. Once I had some K deficiency and so I added some. It actually made the K deficiency worse so I was assuming that was too much Mg locking out K. That's when I decided to find the potassium sulfate. I didn't check the pH of the soil though, so it might have been low pH. I'm not sure. I did try making a liquid version of it but I barely added any Langbeinite so I don't think that was it.

It's not hard to get an approximate NPK though. Just gotta average everything. For example 1 part 2-5-5 with 1 part 0-0-22 and you end up with 1-2.5-13.5. Not that you want to use that mix, but you get it, :bigjoint:
 
Week4@inCharge

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
PadawanWarrior said:
Just don't use a ton of it. Kratos is the man here. I've only been experimenting with Langbeinite for a little while. The potassium sulfate is like 0-0-50 but I just got that so don't have any actual experience yet. I did have some issues using Langbeinite a couple times. Once I had some K deficiency and so I added some. It actually made the K deficiency worse so I was assuming that was too much Mg locking out K. That's when I decided to find the potassium sulfate. I didn't check the pH of the soil though, so it might have been low pH. I'm not sure. I did try making a liquid version of it but I barely added any Langbeinite so I don't think that was it.

It's not hard to get an approximate NPK though. Just gotta average everything. For example 1 part 2-5-5 with 1 part 0-0-22 and you end up with 1-2.5-13.5. Not that you want to use that mix, but you get it, :bigjoint:
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Same boat as you on that Mg thing, for a while I thought it was Calcium (I'm still not sure) but... Do Not use Dolomite Limestone and Langbeinite together. I'm gonna mix up a soil mix (Thanks Home Depot) just for kicks and try that out for a round (indoor 4x2 ). Experiment with my "Hard" tap water and Langbeinite. If that works out, save me a lot of work from this RO unit.
 
Week4@inCharge

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
Wozza129 said:
I know this is unrelated guys but I told my gf to get me some langbenite while I was at work and when I got home she came back with sulphate of potash will this have the same effect as langbenite?
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Sounds like something my wife would do, not sure man hopefully someone chimes in soon
 
PadawanWarrior

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
Wozza129 said:
I know this is unrelated guys but I told my gf to get me some langbenite while I was at work and when I got home she came back with sulphate of potash will this have the same effect as langbenite?
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That's potassium sulfate without the Mg. Does it say 0-0-50? I just got some of that I'm messing with but I don't have any plants growing now. Just trying to get it ready for next round. It's older reused soil. Langbeinite kicks ass but I thought I'd try this for when I don't need more Mg.
 
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Wozza129

Member
PadawanWarrior said:
That's potassium sulfate without the Mg. Does it say 0-0-50? I just got some of that I'm messing with but I don't have any plants growing now. Just trying to get it ready for next round. It's older reused soil. Langbeinite kicks ass but I thought I'd try this for when I don't need more Mg.
[/QUOTE
That’s exactly why it is I’ve put some on the top of the soil of my tom’s as a trail anyhow.. but I figured it’s the sulphate properties that you want for the tap water so wth ‍♂
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Week4@inCharge

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
So here's a twist.. anyone here use vinegar to pH down your tap water? YOUR HARD TAP WATER? Another camp just told me that vinegar will break the calcium carbonate bond in the tap water to a usable calcium?? This group I'm talking to are pure KNF (Korean Natural Farming) growers, they make their own everything for the soil grow.

And the concerns for the vinegar breaking down Calcium in the soil. They add glacial rock dust and gypsum, the fungi and root systems create their own acids to grab calcium.
 
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Week4@inCharge

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
Calcium carbonate (hard tap water) binds to the undissolved carbon dioxide in water. Making it hard for the plant to uptake the Calcium. The infinity in Amino Acids is higher than that of carbon dioxide. That Calcium will then bond to the amino acid and be available for the plant uptake. The plants energy from producing its own amino acid will now go towards strengthening it's pest defense and flower production. Supplementing with Amino Acids can greatly aid the overall health of your plants.

Amino Acids. 40:38 mark of vid.

 
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