Calling organic growers!!!

I already posted in the plant problems thread but since this is an organics issue i figured you guys are the ones i should ask. So im about 5 weeks from seed growing in kind soil (organic super soil). I didnt have the time or means to compost my own rols (which im doing sunday) because i just moved, so i bought the kind soil. The reviews for it are great and i havent seen anyone with issues except me lol. At first after i transplanted it looked like they had some minor nute burn and i thought the soil was too hot. So i raised them a few more inches off of the hot soil. They never stopped growing but the leaf issues only been getting worse. Im thinking its a ph thing because there is absolutely no way its a lack of nutrients in this soil. I am using dechlorinated tap water (around 80 ppm) ph'd down to 6.5 (with earth juice crystals). The kind soil people warn a whole lot not to water to run off so i dont, therefore i cant test runoff ph. I called them and they said its most likely a ph problem to confirm my suspicion. But i thought organic soil was supposed to buffer the ph? Also how could the ph be off if im using 6.5 water? Should i dig out some of the soil from the middle of the container and test it? I dont wanna disturb roots tho. I cant change the ph until i know where it is at. Is there anything i can topdress in tea form that doesnt have many or any nutes that will help regulate ph? Obviously i dont wanna disturb the micro life either. They look really unhappy and I feel so terrible that im putting these girls through this and dont know how to help them.

correct, you do not want runoff, because you'll be leaching nutrients out of that soil that would need to be put back in. I don't realy think it's a pH problem because typically, with pH, you will see the newest growth suffering, and clearly your oldest growth is suffering, and looks to me like a phosphorus def (phos is mobile and would get pulled from the old/large fan leaves first). Organic soils are capable of buffering pH on their own, so long as there are the proper amendments and micro life in the soil to do so. Curious as to how dry you are keeping the medium? Too dry and you will decrease microbial life drastically because they require water to function (your topsoil looks really dry in the pic). you should also get something to mulch the top with... straw, pumice, perlite, anything to help prevent evaporation of the soil (also helps with erosion). The medium should be kept uniformly moist as much as possbile, but not oversaturated. testing runoff is not the best way to do medium pH testing, you'd be better off taking a sample of the soil and testing that.

other than that, i'd brew up a compost tea and recharge the micro life in the soil and see if you can correct the issue that way. for the most part, they really don't look all that bad... but clearly something is going on. new growth looks fine which is good, and i would say that there is no real pH issue because of that evidence.

and just because your water is 6.5 doesn't mean your medium HAS to be 6.5... there are several variables that will effect medium pH when it comes to organics.

ShLUbY said:

correct, you do not want runoff, because you'll be leaching nutrients out of that soil that would need to be put back in. I don't realy think it's a pH problem because typically, with pH, you will see the newest growth suffering, and clearly your oldest growth is suffering, and looks to me like a phosphorus def (phos is mobile and would get pulled from the old/large fan leaves first). Organic soils are capable of buffering pH on their own, so long as there are the proper amendments and micro life in the soil to do so. Curious as to how dry you are keeping the medium? Too dry and you will decrease microbial life drastically because they require water to function (your topsoil looks really dry in the pic). you should also get something to mulch the top with... straw, pumice, perlite, anything to help prevent evaporation of the soil (also helps with erosion). The medium should be kept uniformly moist as much as possbile, but not oversaturated. testing runoff is not the best way to do medium pH testing, you'd be better off taking a sample of the soil and testing that.

other than that, i'd brew up a compost tea and recharge the micro life in the soil and see if you can correct the issue that way. for the most part, they really don't look all that bad... but clearly something is going on. new growth looks fine which is good, and i would say that there is no real pH issue because of that evidence.

and just because your water is 6.5 doesn't mean your medium HAS to be 6.5... there are several variables that will effect medium pH when it comes to organics.

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First off, thank you for jumping in so quick. The top inch or so is pretty dry. But the moisture probe says is still wet in the middle and its only been 3 days since i watered. The kind soil people say to water every 5-7 days. Ill definitely get some perlite on top of there. Thanks for the suggestion. Im gonna go today and get a soil test kit and and check the ph just to be safe but ill take your word for it and brew up a compost tea as well. Im sure i can find some high quality compost locally. How long can you keep tea for after its made? Like if i keep an airstone in it? I only have 3 plants so i might just have to make a small batch, i wouldnt want to waste any if i dont have to.

Og grumble said:

First off, thank you for jumping in so quick. The top inch or so is pretty dry. But the moisture probe says is still wet in the middle and its only been 3 days since i watered. The kind soil people say to water every 5-7 days. Ill definitely get some perlite on top of there. Thanks for the suggestion. Im gonna go today and get a soil test kit and and check the ph just to be safe but ill take your word for it and brew up a compost tea as well. Im sure i can find some high quality compost locally. How long can you keep tea for after its made? Like if i keep an airstone in it? I only have 3 plants so i might just have to make a small batch, i wouldnt want to waste any if i dont have to.

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you're welcome dude, glad to offer some help

small batch tea is fine, and it does not store (even with airstone) because eventually food will disappear/be consumed and then eventually the microbe populations will just die out.... so just use whatever is necessary from what you make, it's cheap to make anyway so some waste is not a big deal at all. 24-48 hour brew time (if your water is real cold, go with 48 hours so it gives time for the water to warm up). you can use a good 1-1.5" (3-5 cm.)of perlite for the mulch. there is no set time frame to water a soil. I think it's dumb for them to suggest 5-7 days lol, they should have said this... it all depends on the plant's needs, but yeah trust your moisture meter, and the mulch will help your top horizon of soil out for sure. knowing the pH is going to help you target what is actually going on with the plant much easier than guessing, so get that test and find out!

ShLUbY said:

you're welcome dude, glad to offer some help

small batch tea is fine, and it does not store (even with airstone) because eventually food will disappear/be consumed and then eventually the microbe populations will just die out.... so just use whatever is necessary from what you make, it's cheap to make anyway so some waste is not a big deal at all. 24-48 hour brew time (if your water is real cold, go with 48 hours so it gives time for the water to warm up). you can use a good 1-1.5" (3-5 cm.)of perlite for the mulch. there is no set time frame to water a soil. I think it's dumb for them to suggest 5-7 days lol, they should have said this... it all depends on the plant's needs, but yeah trust your moisture meter, and the mulch will help your top horizon of soil out for sure. knowing the pH is going to help you target what is actually going on with the plant much easier than guessing, so get that test and find out!

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Awesome. Thanks yo. Im about to go get the test kit and some compost right now. My buddy is telling me to just get em out of the kind soil and put em in something not so hot and then just feed with teas. Im thinking about it but i spent a lot of money on this soil and i seem to be the only one having problems with it lol

Og grumble said:

Awesome. Thanks yo. Im about to go get the test kit and some compost right now. My buddy is telling me to just get em out of the kind soil and put em in something not so hot and then just feed with teas. Im thinking about it but i spent a lot of money on this soil and i seem to be the only one having problems with it lol

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teas are a pain in the ass though, water only would be the way to go. they seriously don't look that bad. i would not pull them outta that mix yet. see if you can get them back on track first.

ShLUbY said:

teas are a pain in the ass though, water only would be the way to go. they seriously don't look that bad. i would not pull them outta that mix yet. see if you can get them back on track first.

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Thats what i was gonna do. If the ph actually is the issue how do you suggest i fix it? i looked up phosphorus deficiencies and some of the pics do look a lot like my plants. But there is plenty of phosphorus in the soil so thats why im back at ph. If the plant shows a deficiency of a nutrient that is present it must be ph right?

Og grumble said:

Thats what i was gonna do. If the ph actually is the issue how do you suggest i fix it? i looked up phosphorus deficiencies and some of the pics do look a lot like my plants. But there is plenty of phosphorus in the soil so thats why im back at ph. If the plant shows a deficiency of a nutrient that is present it must be ph right?

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not necessarily... you may have gotten a batch that was not mixed properly... i mean do they offer test data for each batch of soil with lots of samples to show that they are mixed properly?

if you look at a chart of the availability of minerals related to pH in the soil... P is less available in the VERY high acidity range, and the very slight alkaline range. but with alkalinity you will experience a lockout of minerals like iron which will result in yellow/necrotic new growth. your meristem growth appears fine. so it could just be that you got a bag of soil that has less P in it than it should... at which point you could easily just make a topdress with an amendment and some compost that has P in it, like fishbone meal or crab meal. it will take a week or so to take effect, but you will see improvements.

ShLUbY said:

not necessarily... you may have gotten a batch that was not mixed properly... i mean do they offer test data for each batch of soil with lots of samples to show that they are mixed properly?

if you look at a chart of the availability of minerals related to pH in the soil... P is less available in the VERY high acidity range, and the very slight alkaline range. but with alkalinity you will experience a lockout of minerals like iron which will result in yellow/necrotic new growth. your meristem growth appears fine. so it could just be that you got a bag of soil that has less P in it than it should... at which point you could easily just make a topdress with an amendment and some compost that has P in it, like fishbone meal or crab meal. it will take a week or so to take effect, but you will see improvements.

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Alright im on it lol. Thanks ill let you know what happens.

There's no need to ph your water in an organic mix. Nor does the runoff ph tell you anything useful. You need a decent quality soil probe to test the actual ph in the root zone. The soil itself should buffer the ph but since it is a premade mix you have no idea what's in it. It certainly looks like an absorbtion issue. Adding oyster flour as a ph buffer can help balance a hot mix but it must be placed in the mix itself. It only works if it is present at the root zone. I would try repotting and sprinkling some crushed oyster shell in a layer under the root ball along with a light layer of soil. Add some granular mycorrhizae on top of that while you are at it and place the root ball back on top so the myco is in direct contact with the roots. A compost tea can help increase microbial activity but the super soil should be very active with microbes already or it's not really "super" soil.
I also agree that 5-7 days in between watering sounds like a long time. Water about twice a week as needed...as needed being the key phrase here. Lift up on the pots... if getting light then water lightly if it seems heavy leave them alone. How are you dechlorinating your water?

Richard Drysift said:

There's no need to ph your water in an organic mix. Nor does the runoff ph tell you anything useful. You need a decent quality soil probe to test the actual ph in the root zone. The soil itself should buffer the ph but since it is a premade mix you have no idea what's in it. It certainly looks like an absorbtion issue. Adding oyster flour as a ph buffer can help balance a hot mix but it must be placed in the mix itself. It only works if it is present at the root zone. I would try repotting and sprinkling some crushed oyster shell in a layer under the root ball along with a light layer of soil. Add some granular mycorrhizae on top of that while you are at it and place the root ball back on top so the myco is in direct contact with the roots. A compost tea can help increase microbial activity but the super soil should be very active with microbes already or it's not really "super" soil.
I also agree that 5-7 days in between watering sounds like a long time. Water about twice a week as needed...as needed being the key phrase here. Lift up on the pots... if getting light then water lightly if it seems heavy leave them alone. How are you dechlorinating your water?

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I have a soil probe but it was like $10 at lowes so probably not very good quality. And i would wanna wait until after i water to test the ph with the soil probe? I was definitely thinking of repotting and changing things up at root level. Thanks for the info. I got a soil test kit that tests ph, N, P, and K. Looks like its right at 7 to me but im red/green colorblind so with these color coded testers i gotta have someone else look at it and tell me haha. Im about to test the NPK and see if its just a bad batch of this soil. Then with those results ill be back here for more advice haha. Thanks guys

Richard Drysift said:

There's no need to ph your water in an organic mix. Nor does the runoff ph tell you anything useful. You need a decent quality soil probe to test the actual ph in the root zone. The soil itself should buffer the ph but since it is a premade mix you have no idea what's in it. It certainly looks like an absorbtion issue. Adding oyster flour as a ph buffer can help balance a hot mix but it must be placed in the mix itself. It only works if it is present at the root zone. I would try repotting and sprinkling some crushed oyster shell in a layer under the root ball along with a light layer of soil. Add some granular mycorrhizae on top of that while you are at it and place the root ball back on top so the myco is in direct contact with the roots. A compost tea can help increase microbial activity but the super soil should be very active with microbes already or it's not really "super" soil.
I also agree that 5-7 days in between watering sounds like a long time. Water about twice a week as needed...as needed being the key phrase here. Lift up on the pots... if getting light then water lightly if it seems heavy leave them alone. How are you dechlorinating your water?

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Also the soil is supposed to be full of all the beneficial microbes but a lot of shit is supposed to be and never is lol. I knew i should have just waited and made my own. And btw this is what im using to dechlorinate

Og grumble said:

I have a soil probe but it was like $10 at lowes so probably not very good quality. And i would wanna wait until after i water to test the ph with the soil probe? I was definitely thinking of repotting and changing things up at root level. Thanks for the info. I got a soil test kit that tests ph, N, P, and K. Looks like its right at 7 to me but im red/green colorblind so with these color coded testers i gotta have someone else look at it and tell me haha. Im about to test the NPK and see if its just a bad batch of this soil. Then with those results ill be back here for more advice haha. Thanks guys

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fuck those cheapy soil probes. those things are junk. you'll be better off with a kit.

I've seen big recoveries and speeds take off just with adding a mulch,

and if you can get them sipping, that would save a lot of guess work for you.. you can do S.I.P. with any size!

DonTesla said:

I've seen big recoveries and speeds take off just with adding a mulch,

and if you can get them sipping, that would save a lot of guess work for you.. you can do S.I.P. with any size!

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Whats s.i.p? Sorry for my ignorance

You don't have to make your own mix but it helps to know what you are starting out with. I just keep amending and recycling what used to be bagged organic soil and but honestly it takes a few recycles before everything that is in your mix becomes available and that has a lot to do with how active your soil is. From what I have read in my limited exp is that there is no way to remove chloramine from your so water without filtration. What could they add into that can that will dissipate chloramine? Some chemical that may or may not be safe for living soil. In other words whatever is in that stuff could be killing your microbes that you need to feed your plant or throwing the ph off which is causing absorbtion problems. If it doesn't say OMRI on the label I would toss that shit. Use a clean water source like rain or RO water. At least try to filter it if you have to use tap water; even single stage filtration can help make your water useable for living soil if it is low in ppm to begin with.

Richard Drysift said:

You don't have to make your own mix but it helps to know what you are starting out with. I just keep amending and recycling what used to be bagged organic soil and but honestly it takes a few recycles before everything that is in your mix becomes available and that has a lot to do with how active your soil is. From what I have read in my limited exp is that there is no way to remove chloramine from your so water without filtration. What could they add into that can that will dissipate chloramine? Some chemical that may or may not be safe for living soil. In other words whatever is in that stuff could be killing your microbes that you need to feed your plant or throwing the ph off which is causing absorbtion problems. If it doesn't say OMRI on the label I would toss that shit. Use a clean water source like rain or RO water. At least try to filter it if you have to use tap water; even single stage filtration can help make your water useable for living soil if it is low in ppm to begin with.

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Its in the trash lol

So im about to make a tea. I just went and picked up an airstone and I got some organic compost and some bone meal for phosphorus. How much would you suggest i use for this tea?

Og grumble said:

So im about to make a tea. I just went and picked up an airstone and I got some organic compost and some bone meal for phosphorus. How much would you suggest i use for this tea?

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keep the bone meal out of it for now, it's not very soluble anyway and we don't even know exactly what the problem is yet... so it could be just a small soil issue that might be easily corrected. just use unsulfured black strap molasses @ 2 tsp per gallon, 1-2 cups of compost, and give it all the oxygen you can (hard rolling bubble). hopefully you have some sort of compost tea bag, I even use the 220 micron bag from an old bubble bag set i have to brew my teas. if you can, brew it in a room temp around 70-75 deg, that will speed up bacterial growth. if you don't see the issue reside in the next 7-10 days, then i would consider mixing 1/4c of that bone meal in with some compost and topdressing that mixture underneath your perlite mulch.

I would use 1-2 cups of worm castings to 3-5 gal of clean water, add 1 tbspn of molasses and 3 tsp of kelp meal for a good all purpose tea. Use the bone meal as a top dressing or soil amendment; it's not soluble for teas. You should try to figure out what your issue is before throwing teas at them. AACTs are not like nutrients nor are they a fix all for absorbtion issues if in fact that is what you have. Wait so what water source are you using to make a tea?