Canada Grows to the 4 Plant Limit

GroErr said:

Lol, it's in my sig but here it is, been running for 3 years or so, hopefully won't die

https://www.rollitup.org/t/groerr-grows.851933/

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Make it obvious for the newbies is all I ask, some don't know how to navigate around here.

Tip for Trouble with Cloning
A buddy just sent me this and if ya got a plant that's a bitch to clone, it might help.
Make sure of your ph with clones, read all about it on this forum.

"Here's an excerpt from something I came across. I have a bunch of the pellets you get with the little greenhouse things. I bought one just for the heating pad. Anyway, I think they are peat, and may do the trick. Worth a try.


I haven't done this with cannabis but in other areas of my gardening, I've actually rooted cuttings while still on the plant. Make a cut about 2/3 way through the stem. Bend the stem so the cut opens up and wedge a toothpick into the cut to hold the cut open. Wet some peat moss and wad it up around the stem where you've made the cut. Wrap clear plastic around the whole little wad and tape it. In a few days you'll see roots growing in the peat moss. Cut the stem just below the original cut, take the plastic off and you've got a cutting with roots to plant."

Someone need help building a light? Cause I gotta do something constructive fur I turn into a fuck'n politician, then I'd consider my life a failure. Idle hands...

Canadian vendor for prebuilt LEDs.

http://www.growlights.ca/led-grow-lights/fusion-pro.html

tombsy said:

Canadian vendor for prebuilt LEDs.

http://www.growlights.ca/led-grow-lights/fusion-pro.html

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The LEDs they use look the 10 watters I use on the side lights, though they do sell a 20 version in the same package. I just had a quick peek, looks like they advertize the draw from the wall, but most people are on to that one. I would suspect the quality of the diodes, from the pic, but it's a cheap well underdriven lamp and might be the booster ya want. They don't appear to be misrepresenting things, what ya see is what ya get, OK with me.

I gotta go for the rebuild, the end of the month approaches and I gotta spend some quality time with the work bench, the old mother is stretching above the grid and it's like a game of wackomole stuff;n em back down, she's begging to be flowered. Late nights are hard on an old fart like me, dunno how many lumps it takes me to learn sometimes...

DIY-HP-LED said:

The LEDs they use look the 10 watters I use on the side lights, though they do sell a 20 version in the same package. I just had a quick peek, looks like they advertize the draw from the wall, but most people are on to that one. I would suspect the quality of the diodes, from the pic, but it's a cheap well underdriven lamp and might be the booster ya want. They don't appear to be misrepresenting things, what ya see is what ya get, OK with me.

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Yeah they look like re-branded Chinese lights at premium pricing, they call them COBs just like the Chinese but they aren't true COBs, just a bunch of low end diodes concentrated on a die to make them look like single COBs. There was one legit COB light manufacturer making lights out in BC and for Canadian lights their pricing was quite good. I'll be damned if I can find them though, like they disappeared. I know a couple of guys in the Canadian forum had bought them.

GroErr said:

Yeah they look like re-branded Chinese lights at premium pricing, they call them COBs just like the Chinese but they aren't true COBs, just a bunch of low end diodes concentrated on a die to make them look like single COBs. There was one legit COB light manufacturer making lights out in BC and for Canadian lights their pricing was quite good. I'll be damned if I can find them though, like they disappeared. I know a couple of guys in the Canadian forum had bought them.

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What are your thoughts on their DE CMH?

http://www.growlights.ca/growlights/grow-light-kits/ceramic-metal-halide-lights-cmh/dimmable-fusion-bright-630w-cmh-complete-kit-double-ended-de.html

tombsy said:

What are your thoughts on their DE CMH?

http://www.growlights.ca/growlights/grow-light-kits/ceramic-metal-halide-lights-cmh/dimmable-fusion-bright-630w-cmh-complete-kit-double-ended-de.html

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Judging by his sig and thread, i'd say quite a bit, so listen up!

tombsy said:

What are your thoughts on their DE CMH?

http://www.growlights.ca/growlights/grow-light-kits/ceramic-metal-halide-lights-cmh/dimmable-fusion-bright-630w-cmh-complete-kit-double-ended-de.html

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Depends what you're planning to cover as your footprint. They claim those double ended CMH fixtures can cover off a 5x5 but I'd go 4x4 or 4.5x4.5' max for the footprint. Problem with them is the intensity is great, directly below the fixture. But if you look at the size and design of the fixture, the spread on that will not properly cover off the edges in a larger footprint. Those particular fixtures are Chinese knock off's, I've seen them on Ali and e-Bay. There are many fixtures/brands out there but Canada sucks for supplies so probably not a lot of options to buy in Canada and off-the-shelf. The Sun Systems use Philips ballasts and are the top of the line but costly, great reflectors spread the light better than some of the lower end fixtures.

It comes down to the size and config of your space and how you plan to use it. Multiple 315's will give you better coverage than single (double bulb or single bulb) fixtures if your footprint is more rectangular. The double ended lights would give you better coverage in a square config but I'd stick to 4.5x4.5' or less, should produce really well in a 4x4'.

I ran 2x 315's for a couple of years and pulled some great quality and yields from them, the tech is solid and watt-for-watt it will outperform hps by 20-25% in yields (I've done a couple of hps to CMH conversions, including my son's grow). My best pulls were covering 3.5x7' with 2x 315w fixtures. I still have them and may still use them from time to time, tried using one for veg and it worked fantastic but was in a small 2x4x5' tent and couldn't control the heat well enough so switched it to COBs. The 315's using clones from a good yielding strain in a 3.5x3.5' footprint can pull 1 lb. a light.

Hacking the Water Cooled Rig
I was down feeding the girls and hacking the lamp a typical day for a retired old fart who grows, has a shop and likes to have fun, there's more than one who hangs around here that has a shop and likes to play. I started getting into this stuff after retirement and had some experience from my "misspent youth", back in the stone age, did I tell ya we used to grow by gaslight then and all the talk was about the best mantle to use, some gave a better spectrum than most Gotta stop for some cat kiss'n here cause they insist. If you think yer on a typical thread here, yer not, cause it has purposes greater than my own alone, kinda like |GroErr Grows| in that respect. Who we are leaks through in everything we do and I ain't no different than everybody else. One of this thread's purposes is to show folks that we ain't any different than any other honorable and decent people, we just like to get high, want some? In the future other Canadians are going to hear a lot more from us, and like I said before, I don't want folks to think we're a bunch of heathen! (though technically I am) Enough politic'n, time for some fun and why I started the damn thing in the first place, though the reason has changed somewhat, as I too learned and grew. Ya learn till yer dead, or ya might as well be..

OK, I got this sonofabitch on the bench for an upgrade and tune up, the reason some aspects of it look like shit is because it's largely experimental and was designed to till fresh ground. I knew I'd be upgrading the COBs and doing other changes which is why the wiring looks like shit, I show it more as a horrible warning than as an example to emulate. If ya wanna build with water I got a better design than this Gen 1, I'm already onto Gen2 light bars, but this works well enough, I'm just too fuck'n lazy to upgrade the bars and I'm too tight to buy cob holders

I'm pull'n the COBs off the pig and removed the double sided adhesive CPU/LED thermal tape. I could have used a quality thermal epoxy, but you'd have to chisel them off and it would ruin yer whole day. I also could have used COB holders and used good paste/pads and epoxied them on using a couple of dabs with a little weight on the holder till it sets. Im mostly explaining this so you'll understand what a tight old bastard I am!

When I pulled the flood light LEDs, though I call'm COBs now and thermal tape, this is what I found, the experimenting and fun continues...

I pulled the COBs and laid out the tape next to it to show you folks the things I'm looking at. The center top piece of tape seems to have lifted some of the plating clear off the copper back of the floodlight COB. Note the the metal on the tape, below is another piece of tape from another COB that has thermally discolored as a result of I think adhesion issues with the aluminum cooling tube. More care will have to be take'n in applying them and applying more pressure and though I'm reluctant to do it, when it comes to the citizens I'm gonna press the LES fur sure, as gently and firmly as I figure I can get away with (sure hope Cobby ain't watching ) This time I'll be collecting data and probably go'n blind do'n it, the things I do fur science!


Now I'm the first to admit that sometimes I live dangerously, but on this I figured I could take my chances, because I built a small experimental lamp to get some hands on, gain experience and collect data. Along the way I shattered some assumptions and brainwashed myself somewhat, but fur a hands on Canadian with a brain in his fuck'n head who grows with COBs this is worth a look into. There are other approaches that work better than this and Gen 2 bars would be best, so would COB holders and good paste/pads. If you use thermal tape yer cobs won't fall off fur sure, but it is not recommended for air cooled fixtures or water cooled ones and the faint of heart.

Now if yer a masochist like me and would like to "play" around with water cooling, here are a few cheap useful items fur collecting data. My "K" type DMM thermoprobe fugged up, so I ordered up a dirt cheap one with a couple of extra thermocouples. This kinda screwed things up and I couldn't take any measurements or I woulda figured on this thing earlier, from the data, not the tear down, best laid plans of men and...
The other two items are a infrared thermometer and a LUX meter and it's plenty accurate with white light for my purposes, only fanatics have PAR meters for small grows with white COBs, they might be nerds like me, or simply getting carried away or have more money than brains...
If ya want accurate infrared readings spray paint shiny surfaces flat black, or cover in black tape and wait for thermal equilibrium to be established before measuring.


If you'd like to find out more about this subject go to my thread, my mistakes and fuckups are there too, along with a bit of data, ideas and designs.
For a Canadian doing something like this makes sense, cause if ya use Gen 2 bars, it'll end up cheaper and better than air, provided yer the creative kind who likes to have a bit of fun. You can recover most of the energy from the lamps and easily put it where you want in the house, yer carbon filter will run at a whisper intermittently, or not at all. You can easily and cheaply CO2 supplement and if you use a big enough dehumidifier, seal the room, though that would be extreme. Even good quality COBs will run better and brighter if you can keep the Tb down, though don't count on getting too great an improvement in performance. Gen 6 Citizens can go to 130 C before fry'n, so ya can boil water with em, though I wouldn't recommend it. Your COBs will run cold, fuck'n near forever with little diminishment and if you use holders and paste they out live ya by a long stretch, sure'n shit. Water cooling literally sucks the heat outta COBs and the thermal differential you can maintain is in a league of it's own, so ya can get away with a lot. Give yer COBs some cold comfort and one day yer descendants might say," My great granddaddy used to use these COBs to grow pot in the war on reality!". Yer COBs could be passed down the generations like family jewels. There's no brazing or welding involved with building the bars, real simple with the GEN2's.Got ya sold yet?

If the above don't get ya maybe this will, yer garden becomes quiet and peaceful and a good place to meditate when ya got yer chores done and ya ain't too stoned...

https://www.rollitup.org/t/economical-multi-led-chip-projects-for-growing.852256/page-8

PUMPS
The pump is the heart of a liquid cooled system and it most often resides in the bottom of the reservoir. The pumps I use are all centrifugal and run on either 12 volts or 120 volts line power and range in power from a cheap ebay 4.3 watt 12V (that's running the test rig) to a large 24 watt 110V that moves more water higher. The flow rate decreases with the head height on these (and all) pumps and they have a maximum head height, but this can be extended with a tall reservoir and high water level relative to the lamps.
Here's how:

Start Small and Have Fun
A closeup of a similar 4.3 watt centrifugal pump to one used in the experimental lamp, it's from the web, on ebay this sells for around $4.78CDN with free shipping. The one in this picture sells for $29.59 US here , but essentially the pump thats on ebay is the same thing with the same power and specs. If you want to play with water cooling order up a couple, from ebay I should think!


If you take the screws off the front and pull out the impeller, you'll see that it and the brushless magnetic motor rotor are one piece. This means there is only one moving part, the rotor/impeller and no seal to wear and leak. The rotor rotates in a sealed plastic cylinder and is lubricated and cooled by a thin layer of water between the plastic winding housing and rotor, very clever engineering. These pumps come in various powers, are very durable, dependable and live almost as long as yer air cooled COBs

If ya got yer lights built and got nothing better to do, got some spare parts around and wanna have some fun, giver a go, but start small.

Hydro Static Testing
If ya build some water cooled bars (GEN 2 recommended) you might want to pressure test them just to make sure, though with Gen 2's it shouldn't be nessesarry. If you do test, don't do what these guys did...

Let's say two buddies, call'em Jimbob and Cletus decided to do something similar to the above and pressure test a 3"x 1" 4 foot long rectangular tubing made into a grow light water cooling tube, like the ones I'm gonna use in my grow room conversion build. After installing the hose barbs, and siliconing in the end plugs, then letting everything cure for a couple of days. Jimbob heads for the 1/2 ton to grab the compressor using a step ladder to get up into the high truck cab (we're dealing with stereotypes here).

Now they seal one of the hose fittings with a bent back and kinked piece of vinyl hose, held tight with a nylon wire tie (a good plan for testing) and hose clamp the other end to the fitting. These boys don't use water and run a "dry" test to look for leak bubbles with soapy water and a brush. Jimbob fires up the compressor and the noise fills the barn, meanwhile Cetus is standing a few feet away from the end of the tube making a YouTube video of the whole thing on his phone. After the compressor was running for awhile, the pressure on the gauge climbs to, say 40 psi (the boys did a real good job on the silicone) all of a sudden KABOOM! A plug blows out of one end of the tube and dorks ole Cetus square in the nuts, down he goes like a sack of potatoes, writhing on the floor in exquisite agony. Jimbob who was to one side painting on soapy water looking for leaks, shits his pants. Now if this wasn't bad enough, the neighbors hearing the explosion rush to the scene, "I thought someone wuz shot", one of them says to the cop...

This tragic situation could have been avoided entirely with hydrostatic testing, all they had to do was fill the fucking tube with water before applying pressure! When the silicone let go there would have been a gentle "blurp" sound as the end plug failed and the water leaked out, the plug would probably still be in place. Cletus would have his nuts unscathed and Jimbob wouldn't need a change of underwear. If there was any pressure in the supply hose, it might cause a little spray, but I doubt it. The compressor would have only run for a minute and there would have been much less potential energy in the system because liquids are in-compressible. Avoid explosive decompression, USE HYDROSTATIC PRESSURE TESTING, keep your nuts, your wife might appreciate that.

In this case, Jimbob and Cletus fucked up so you don't have to.

An Alternate Water Cooled Tube Design (GEN 2 )
I ran across this great idea on another thread on this site, I left a message asking if I could use the pic and give him credit for the idea, though I don't think it originated with him. This is an alternate design for a cooling tube that is less weight (when filled) than my design and you can use screws/holders and good quality thermal paste to mount COBs on it. The fellow uses a flat plate with a piece of 1" square tubing as a cooling tube, he bonds the tube to the plate using heatsink paste over where the COBs go and JB weld epoxy in between, alternating patches of epoxy and paste down the length of the tube then clamps it firmly together until the epoxy sets, clever.

I liked this idea and thought I could develop it further by using 2" or 3" x 1" aluminum "C" channel and the same square 1" aluminum tubing he uses. Double sided CPU thermal tape (ebay) could be used to adhere the tube to the center of the channel. Flood light COBs or COBs using holders could then be applied to the channel with the screw holes on the outside of the cooling tube. Most good quality 1" square COBs would be mounted on the channel, directly beneath the cooling tubes and the holder screw ends would be to the sides of the cooling tube. In addition wiring could be run along the inside of the channel for a neater job and holes drilled close to the COBs in the "C" channel for the wires. Here's what I mean...

This picture shows where the holes end up in the channel, on either side of the cooling tube for flood light COBs. I'm using a piece of scrap and an old cooling tube from another design to illustrate the idea, this is not an actual build. This is what such a bar would look like if 1" square tubing and 2" x 1" architectural "C" channel were used to build it. The COBs would go on the C channel, I placed them on the cooling tube to show where the holes would end up. You wouldn't even have to tap any screw holes, since nuts could probably be applied to the screw ends on the inside of the channel.

Here is the double sided adhesive CPU tape that has the same thermal properties as cheap heatsink paste. Alternately you could use paste and hold the tube against the channel mechanically, using spring steel wires across the cooling tube and into holes on the top sides of the channel. If you buy an appropriately sized barbed brass hose fitting with a pipe thread on one end, like that shown, it will thread right into the end of the aluminum tube. After you cut some thread in the tubing end, remove the fitting, clean everything with alcohol and slather it with JB weld epoxy (or silicone) and screw it back in, making sure the corners are well filled in. I know, I know, wearing socks with sandals is a fashion faux paus.

You could mount self enclosed drivers to the top of the cooling tubes with silicone adhesive or even CPU tape and the channel can be used to hang the bar with chains or to mount to a frame with one or two others. See the sections earlier in the thread to learn about pumps and cooler ideas, etc.

Also, if you build a water cooled light, don't forget to thermally protect it with a 50 C (or 40 C) thermal cut off switch (ebay or even an appliance repair place, buy an NC type, Normally Closed) mount it to the channel close to a COB (use paste). This will shut the power down to the COBs if something should screw up and will save your lamp until you notice it and shut it down, figure out what's wrong and fix it. If the cooling system springs a leak or the pump dies, you'll be ok, the lamp will shut down at 50 C and start back up when it reaches say 45 C depending on the hysteresis specs of the switch. Wire it in series with the AC power supply to the driver's on the line side, like any other AC switch.

The flow rate a cheap $5 12 volt ebay pump produces could cool one of these bars quite easily, but it might be best to keep hoses fittings and everything else at 1/2". The cost of constructing these bars would be less than $4 or $5/ft CDN plus end fittings and epoxy. A 6 foot long 3 cooling bar lamp on an aluminum angle frame with cheap enclosed drivers on the tops of the tubes wouldn't cost that much, at least for the cooling tubes and cooler, if you used a car heater core and a fountain pump to run the system.

One of the key advantages for many will be the fact that you don't have to tap any screw holes with this design and still can use COB holders with good paste and screw them down. Nuts can be applied to the screw ends from the top and even the thermal switch can be mounted using screws, nuts and paste. It's simple, cheap and easy to build. If the end of the tube with the fitting can't be made flush with the rest of the tube, you can just hang it out the end of the channel a bit on both ends. Unless you buy pre drilled and tapped heatsinks, you'll have to screw tap everything but a water cooled fixture.

There, that outta keep ya reading and thinking fur a bit

Time fur bed, gotta put a drive on and get stuff done, it ain't always fun...

Nice project and info. +rep as we used to say here a few years back!

Nutes and a Business Idea Give Away (Ok I'll change it)
Lots of folks in this game have been mak'in a few bucks on the side running, shall we say a small enterprise, and been syphoning off the 1% and the government for a bit. It's a nice little sideline doing something you don't have any moral or ethical issues over and nether do I. But you folks are just like the many nubes and many others who have to buy nutes. The key difference, between you and the nubes, is that you might have a bit of capital around and a lot of experience and those are the key ingredients to this idea. Things are constantly changing and if the government don't put ya outta business, I or others like me will, only my motives and methods are a bit different than theirs, they wanna fuck ya and I wanna help!

If ya been following along, you'll see that my real purpose is to drive down the retail cost of pot and growing in the country. Even if we get the 4 plant limit the government is floating (I would perfer 12/ per household/ adult) I want to teach folks how to max out on that and I figure a few around here will help or start their own threads with Canadian in the name and go to work. Don't get me wrong, if anybody is gonna make money outta this, I figure it should be those who lead the way and real small business people, who love what they do. I'd like folks to sell a 1 KG min to the liquor commission and they test it and put a label on it, if there's pesticide, or bud rot ya lose yer dope, though shit, that'll learn ya. The Commission then sells it to the dispensaries and everybody is happy, except the greedy bastards and I honestly don't give a shit about them, works both ways. Jus so ya know where I'm coming from, and if you would like to see such a future for yer self, then fight like Hell, for a better law or change the one they try to stick ya with, cause money talks, bullshit walks, but the truth sticks around. If yer tired of being treated like an animal, then start acting like a human, speak out, band together and fight like HELL, cause that's really what being free is all about.

Enough politics, now for those of ya that would like to gain a bit of "respectability", provide a service to yer fellow Canadians and make a few bucks, listen up. If ya ever bought liquid nutes ya been butt hurt, so I don't need to dwell on the fact that a lot of this shit comes from the states, getting a clue yet. You can buy 50 pound bags of the raw ingredients, pretty cheap, a couple of scales and other such things you'll need. You can make the contents of most liquid nute concentrations for a few pennies, the 1 gallon plastic bottle and fancy label would be the most expensive part and ya can start in yer garage or basement. Buy an old van, go around to the grow stores and offer it up on consignment, travel around yer region every month and give'm the "hard" sell, etc.

Just go online and have a look, there are sites, calculators and youtube videos on the subject, bone up and put yer link here or some place like it and offer some folks a deal in exchange for the testing. Know yer business and if ya gotta a chemistry background the technical part will be easy as pie. But the main thing is you've already got a lot of experience and gotta brain or ya wouldn't be an entrepreneur already. Lot's of others have taken this road and they're liv'n high off the hog now. If yer past yer best before date like me and got some kids ya might wanna help em out on this kinda thing. Maybe some day some greedy corperation will come along and sweep ya off yer feet, with an offer ya can't refuse. The profit margin is much higher than pot and the prospects is bigger.

Things are constantly changing, it is the nature of our existance, get on board or get run over, it ain't my fault, I'm jus tell'n ya what the future might look like, the rest is up to you...

If you plan on doing business with the govt (feds, or provincial), I'm pretty sure you will need some form of permit. You will pay a fee to become licensed, pay taxes, and, in essence, become one of those that you so openly have a sour taste for. BTW, I feed my girls "nutes".
I'm new here. Please don't consider me as a grouch, or nit picker. I know DIY personally, and have, on occasion, been accused of standing in for his conscience

Hi Bud, glad I goaded ya into showing up, I'm turning into a real fuck'n politician as you can plainly and painfully see.