Canada’s shameful history of marginalization exposed again.

printer

Well-Known Member
Right!

Modern courts and jails are modeled after a over 100 yr old theory punishment and retribution, which has been shown to be BS at accomplishing anything other then detriment to communities and society. It's not even a debate it's proven, demonsteatably, that it doesn't work
It is a way to isolate a problem. As long as the population sees incarceration as a deterrent then it can be cost effective. If the people do not think their actions through, that if they do the crime they will get caught, the system does not work. Probably all the people in jail did not think while doing the deed that they would get caught and be sent to jail. Every one of them expected to see no consequences of their actions. Some just see it as being a cost of doing business (the gang bangers). Many resent the 'white' justice system for putting them where they are. But often they commit crimes against their own people or family members. It is very rarely not one jump from innocence to jail time. Most have multiple offences by that time.

So what do you do with a person that is not ready to play nice in society?
 
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Samwell Seed Well

Well-Known Member
It is a way t

It is a way to isolate a problem. As long as the population sees incarceration as a deterrent then it can be cost effective. If the people do not think their actions through, that if they do the crime they will get caught, the system does not work. Probably all the people in jail did not think while doing the deed that they would get caught and be sent to jail. Every one of them expected to see no consequences of their actions. Some just see it as being a cost of doing business (the gang bangers). Many resent the 'white' justice system for putting them where they are. But often they commit crimes against their own people or family members. It is very rarely not one jump from innocence to jail time. Most have multiple offences by that time.

So what do you do with a person that is not ready to play nice in society?
Crime is a event. How society deals with crime is the problem. They deserve to be treated like humans no matter what they did. It's a line in the sand called integrity and how we feel.doesnt matter.

People deserve opportunity...

Justice is objective. It should not administered by appealing to emotion.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Right!

Modern courts and jails are modeled after a over 100 yr old theory punishment and retribution, which has been shown to be BS at accomplishing anything other then detriment to communities and society. It's not even a debate it's proven, demonsteatably, that it doesn't work
I can't speak on this issue because I'm not very well informed on it. I will say that in the US, we break statistics down according to race, and in fact more black people are incarcerated making race seem to be a factor. We see trolls come through this forum pushing that idea. Yet criminality does not correlate with race, it correlates with other factors, many of which are economic and social. One big one is -- their father being incarcerated. Talk about creating an endless cycle.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
You don’t find those figures troubling? Do you believe native Canadians are more inclined to commit criminal acts?
Yes and yes. Even The Aboriginal Justice Implementation Commission says that aboriginals commit more crimes than the rest of society. And if you read the link I gave they also spell out many of the reasons why. I highlighted some of them. The other article I quoted even had the people in the article admit that they did the deeds. But they turned themselves around.

I have worked with aboriginals who came out of the same environment. They made a commitment to get out of the shitty situation they were in. They did not take the easy way and blame others and decide to get drunk to blow off their anger. The did not take the easy way and abuse the people around them.
 

Samwell Seed Well

Well-Known Member
I can't speak on this issue because I'm not very well informed on it. I will say that in the US, we break statistics down according to race, and in fact more black people are incarcerated making race seem to be a factor. We see trolls come through this forum pushing that idea. Yet criminality does not correlate with race, it correlates with other factors, many of which are economic and social. One big one is -- their father being incarcerated. Talk about creating an endless cycle.
I'm dual so I have family ties in both countries in this community.

Canandian government has a long and well documented history at bigotry and aggression towards first nation's...

I hope the families and communities affected get a chance to heal vs have to fight just to be seen as equals. Canada is many great things... this isn't one of them.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
It is a way to isolate a problem. As long as the population sees incarceration as a deterrent then it can be cost effective. If the people do not think their actions through, that if they do the crime they will get caught, the system does not work. Probably all the people in jail did not think while doing the deed that they would get caught and be sent to jail. Every one of them expected to see no consequences of their actions. Some just see it as being a cost of doing business (the gang bangers). Many resent the 'white' justice system for putting them where they are. But often they commit crimes against their own people or family members. It is very rarely not one jump from innocence to jail time. Most have multiple offences by that time.

So what do you do with a person that is not ready to play nice in society?
The other article I linked to discussed cases where incarceration made the person more likely to commit crime when they got out. This comes from Canada's own Department of Justice. They summarize their statistical summary with:

Compared to all other categories of accused persons, Indigenous people continue to be jailed younger, denied bail more frequently, granted parole less often and hence released later in their sentence, over-represented in segregation, overrepresented in remand custody, and more likely to be classified as higher risk offenders. They are more likely to have needs in categories like employment, community integration, and family supports (Parkes 2012; Green 2012).

This sounds very much like the US justice system and how we mindlessly pass down the effects of systemic racism to the next generation.
 

mooray

Well-Known Member
When a dog whistle isn't just a dog whistle

All lives matter then we can spend some time attending to these lives, who didn't get to live.

When your culture needs support for the genocidal systemic antagonism from your government we will be there too
It was tongue in cheek. Perhaps the answer actually does involve improving the lives of all people, but we should never shy away from discussing the specific issues some people face.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
I can't speak on this issue because I'm not very well informed on it. I will say that in the US, we break statistics down according to race, and in fact more black people are incarcerated making race seem to be a factor. We see trolls come through this forum pushing that idea. Yet criminality does not correlate with race, it correlates with other factors, many of which are economic and social. One big one is -- their father being incarcerated. Talk about creating an endless cycle.
And it comes down to race if a large portion of that race is in dire straits. And that is a part of Biden's Build Back Better that the Republicans hate. Investing in the people on the bottom so that they get out of the trap they are in. In this way Natives here are no different than Blacks in the US. It is systematic when your family is under constant stress, low wage earners, moving from place to place, a kid spending two years at most in one school. You end up being a outlier. And these are easy to get picked up by gangs.

"Aboriginal people experience poverty more frequently than do non-Aboriginal people. According to a study conducted by Winnipeg’s Social Planning Council, more than one-half of Aboriginal households exist below the poverty line, compared to about 20% of non-Aboriginal households"

The kids are at a disadvantage. The stress at home does not make for good schooling. Parrent not able to help the kids with their homework,. the kid gets discouraged and falls farther behind.

"Indian families are more likely to be single-parent families, especially off-reserve, where 36% are single-parent families, compared to the provincial and reserve average, both at 18%."

One third of families has a single parent, not the best for the kids, especially when the vacant parent is not fulfilling monetarily to the kids upbringing.

"The Indian death rate for persons between 25 and 44 years of age is five times higher than the non-Indian rate. For Indian men, the average age at death is 25 years younger than for non-Indian men. For Indian women, it is 28 years younger."

"According to the 1986 census, 34.2% of Manitoba’s Indian population over the age of 15 had less than grade nine education, compared to 18.2% of the total provincial population."

"Indian people have a much different age distribution than the general population in Manitoba. In 1971, 51% of the Indian population were under 15 years of age. For 1991, this is estimated to have declined to 38%. The corresponding 1991 figure for non-Indian people was 22%.31 Because there continues to be a high number of Aboriginal youth entering their child-bearing years, it is expected the Aboriginal birth rate will continue to remain higher than the provincial rate for some time."

All contributors to more aboriginals in trouble with the law. If another race, segment in society lived under the same conditions they would probably end up the same way. In that way it is a systemic problem. But the natives I knew that got out of the trap, they worked hard to get out. They decided they did not want to live in poverty and they did what they needed to get a better life. They made sacrifices for their kids to have a better life. It is hard putting aside the present for the future. Two days ago a buddy of mine showed me a picture of his kids. They are not going to be mixed up in the justice system. The parents are separated but they share looking after the kids and they are giving the kids every advantage that a white kid would get. The kids are getting much more than I ever got. As The Aboriginal Justice Implementation Commission states, many of the problems have alcohol as a cause. I feel it is a contributing factor in keeping the kids from growing up 'normal'.
 

Samwell Seed Well

Well-Known Member
It was tongue in cheek. Perhaps the answer actually does involve improving the lives of all people, but we should never shy away from discussing the specific issues some people face.
While improving lives should Def be a cause anyone can support. It doesn't help the people most marginalize... or take accountability for previous misdeeds.

Not that CA isn't taking good steps in improving first nation relations but that accountability is more then lip service and on paper programs...
 

CunningCanuk

Well-Known Member
Yes and yes. Even The Aboriginal Justice Implementation Commission says that aboriginals commit more crimes than the rest of society. And if you read the link I gave they also spell out many of the reasons why. I highlighted some of them. The other article I quoted even had the people in the article admit that they did the deeds. But they turned themselves around.

I have worked with aboriginals who came out of the same environment. They made a commitment to get out of the shitty situation they were in. They did not take the easy way and blame others and decide to get drunk to blow off their anger. The did not take the easy way and abuse the people around them.
You have an obvious bias that’s been triggered by this thread in the past.

The statistics in the post I submitted earlier today are staggering. They demonstrate a clear example of systemic racism in our Justice system.

As I stated earlier, some people get it and some people don’t.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
You have an obvious bias that’s been triggered by this thread in the past.

The statistics in the post I submitted earlier today are staggering. They demonstrate a clear example of systemic racism in our Justice system.

As I stated earlier, some people get it and some people don’t.
And you seem to miss the point. I get 'it' because I grew up, worked and slept with the people I for some reason do not 'get'. I 'get' some of the challenges as I lived some of the things that have shaped many of their lives. I could have gone the route of some of the people we are discussing, I chose not to but will not go into that as it is not the business of anyone here.

I have given countless reasoning and explanation why the plight of the Natives is more in their hands than us oppressive white folk. The Aboriginal Justice Implementation Commission and I seem to agree with each other in in many places. I have explained myself and where the thought have come from, as you said, many times. I have backed up those opinions with articles, reports and videos of the people.

And all you have to say is I don't 'get it' with nothing to explain your assessment. You have not explained why I am wrong, shown evidence of it. The stats say there are more natives in jail than others. I ask you again, does that mean they are commiting more crime than others? You did not answer that question. I asked what are we to do with them if they go on repeatedly running afoul of the law.

Please explain how you 'get' it and what your solution is. And by the way, what is the percentage of native population where you live?
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
https://indiancountrytoday.com/news/report-on-federal-indian-boarding-schools-due
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The National Native American Boarding School Healing Coalition signed an agreement with the Interior in December to share research but has noted that Interior's authority is limited. The coalition was recently in Washington for the National Indian Education Association Hill Week lobbying for bills containing provisions for a full inquiry into policies that pushed for boarding school attendance by Native children.

Deborah Parker, a citizen of the Tulalip Tribes and CEO of the Coalition, spoke to attendees at the Associations’ meeting.

Senate Bill 2907, and House Resolution 5444, the Truth and Healing Commission on Indian Boarding Schools Act can help capture information about the number of children forced to attend boarding schools,” Parker said.

“Our elders deserve to know the truth about what happened and what continues to happen to us today without that knowledge. It is a crime to withhold information from our people and it is a sin to keep that information locked in basements.”

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Warren first introduced the bill along with then Rep. Deb Haaland, a New Mexico Democrat, in 2020.
 
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