Care Giver..or Drug Dealer?

purklize said:

Yup, it's the Michigan mmj forum. CA has nothing to do with this conversation.



You're not making any sense. They're both caregivers. You think it's okay for caregivers to take product from their patient's plants and sell it to each other's patients, with a bunch of people in between (middlemen, those collecting licensing fees taxes) to jack up the price. But you think it's not okay for caregivers to just take product from their patient's plants and sell it to them directly.

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I am looking @ it from the LAWs POV. Makes perfect SENSE why a Dispense should be allowed to SELL BUDS regularly, & why a CG should not be able to. Because a Dispense is a business, with cameras, employees, records, files & receipts. Which enables them to be taxed & audited.

Someone selling mmj from there doorstep is not keeping records, signing patients in, using registers for receipts.. Main thing is they are not paying taxes.

If someone said hey sign this paper so I can grow more pot legally & sell it to you I would tell them to FK off ill grow my own. Which needs to be the case.

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They have that right, just as they have the right to not buy it for 500/oz from a dispensary. For for a number of reasons it can be convenient and even preferable. What about patients who don't want the plants around their kids, or don't want to have to hide them from the in-laws when they come by for dinner? Dispensaries charge far more and they don't offer the quality and compassion that a good caregiver can. They won't grow specific strains for you, either.

I don't believe in this whole "the caregivers should have to go commit crimes selling to dispensaries so the patients can have free meds to sell on the black market." Yeah, I said it - some patients who demand free meds are notorious for selling them behind your back. Easy money when there's so many suckers out there.

Makes perfect SENSE why a Dispense should be allowed to SELL BUDS regularly, & why a CG should not be able to. Because a Dispense is a business, with cameras, employees, records, files & receipts. Which enables them to be taxed & audited.

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Then why are the MI authorities cracking down on dispensaries and leaving caregivers alone? You overestimate the importance of taxes. Seizure dollars are much more significant. They love raiding dispensaries - there's always tons of cash to be had, and grow equipment/cars/homes etc of the employees to be seized and sold at auction. And 100% of this goes to the cops, unlike taxes.

You need to explain things from YOUR point of view. If you mention the point of view of another you should do so explicitly. Otherwise it is very difficult to follow your posts.

Instead of trying to pick @ everything I post, why not tell us your insight on the subject..

I want to see if your argument on the topic is short .. or long. Will determine how much more time I will spend in here. If you are one of those ppl that say Weed should be Legalized & that is it.. I must move on. If you can accept the world we live in and have a decent understanding to what it takes to grow, then please tell me Why should someone who is getting LBs of MJ every couple months NOT give free meds to the patients they grow for. Is it simply because growing LBs a month is expensive & hard work? @ what point does it become Greed that a CG charges his patients?

If a CG got 1LB+ from 1x patients plants.. & 5lbs all together. Why should none of that 5lb go to the patients. It was there plant, so what.. once it's cut it is no longer there plants but your weed? Not like you have to give it ALL to them, even if you gave away half.. 2.5lb is more than enough for the Expenses. People are greedy & think there op should = highest paying job.


I would suggest a JOB if someone has to charge there patients they grow for. Might make life easier, you know.. like enroll in school, have some ambitions.. work for a living.

Think of the other farmers - those who grow the food we eat every day. Typically, one buys food inside a grocery store - a dispensary - where things are regulated and taxed, licensed, etc. But, farmers may also sell their crops at farmer's markets - cutting out the middlemen, the taxes (if they cheat), and licensing for a storefront. This allows them to sell directly to the customer, which lowers prices for the customer and raises profits for the farmer.

What you propose is that farmer's markets should either be shut down or should give food away for free. A dramatic comparison? No, not at all. Food is far more important to survival, even to those suffering from from cancer and AIDS, than mmj. If it's wrong for a cannabis farmer to charge a patient for medicine, it is wrong for a grain farmer to charge anyone for food - unless sold at a grocery store. (Only patients need mmj, but all people need food.)

The reason I am picking away is because your arguments are so contradictory that the only way out is for you to realize that you can't come to a sane conclusion without consistency. Moral relativism is a bankrupt philosophy.

Of course I think mj should be legal. And I think you are a pessimist to think it won't ever happen. It's going to be on the ballot in a number of states this fall, liberal turnout will probably be high especially with a Romney-Santorum ticket, and polls are showing majority support for legalization for the first time. People said the same thing about mmj, even here in Michigan - "it'll never happen." Well look how wrong they were.

Why should someone who is getting LBs of MJ every couple months NOT give free meds to the patients they grow for. Is it simply because growing LBs a month is expensive & hard work? @ what point does it become Greed that a CG charges his patients?

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For the same reason we pay farmers for our food. They are providing a service of value, and risking their freedom and their safety (robberies are still common in MI, and as far as cops go, even if you win the case you'll still be out a LOT of money and ALL your property). If this is not compensated they will either quit, start selling on the black market to make the risk/work worth the reward, or keep on truckin' if they're insane. Everyone loses.

Bob is a caregiver for Barbette. Tom is a caregiver for Tulip. Each gives their patient 1oz/mo for free, and takes their one 1oz/mo overage and sells it to each other's patients for $300 plus a $200 dispensary/licensing fee tax.

That is what you propose as being okay. I fail to see how it's any better than this:

Bob is a caregiver for Barbette. Tom is a caregiver for Tulip. They give each of their patients 2oz/mo for $300.

In both situations the patients pay less, and the caregivers make the same amount of money.

If a CG got 1LB+ from 1x patients plants.. & 5lbs all together. Why should none of that 5lb go to the patients. It was there plant, so what.. once it's cut it is no longer there plants but your weed?

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You are the one proposing that a CG take most of the crop from the plants they care for and sell it to dispensaries!

Think of the other farmers - those who grow the food we eat every day. Typically, one buys food inside a grocery store - a dispensary - where things are regulated and taxed, licensed, etc. But, farmers may also sell their crops at farmer's markets - cutting out the middlemen, the taxes (if they cheat), and licensing for a storefront. This allows them to sell directly to the customer, which lowers prices for the customer and raises profits for the farmer.

What you propose is that farmer's markets should either be shut down or should give food away for free. A dramatic comparison? No, not at all. Food is far more important to survival, even to those suffering from from cancer and AIDS, than mmj. If it's wrong for a cannabis farmer to charge a patient for medicine, it is wrong for a grain farmer to charge anyone for food - unless sold at a grocery store. (Only patients need mmj, but all people need food.)

The reason I am picking away is because your arguments are so contradictory that the only way out is for you to realize that you can't come to a sane conclusion without consistency. Moral relativism is a bankrupt philosophy.

Of course I think mj should be legal. And I think you are a pessimist to think it won't ever happen. It's going to be on the ballot in a number of states this fall, liberal turnout will probably be high especially with a Romney-Santorum ticket, and polls are showing majority support for legalization for the first time. People said the same thing about mmj, even here in Michigan - "it'll never happen." Well look how wrong they were.

Why should someone who is getting LBs of MJ every couple months NOT give free meds to the patients they grow for. Is it simply because growing LBs a month is expensive & hard work? @ what point does it become Greed that a CG charges his patients?

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For the same reason we pay farmers for our food. They are providing a service of value, and risking their freedom and their safety (robberies are still common in MI, and as far as cops go, even if you win the case you'll still be out a LOT of money and ALL your property). If this is not compensated for they will either quit, start selling on the black market to make the risk/work worth the reward, or keep on truckin' if they're insane. Everyone loses. The local indoor supply dries up and patients go back to smoking brick.

Bob is a caregiver for Barbette. Tom is a caregiver for Tulip. Each gives their patient 1oz/mo for free, and takes their one 1oz/mo overage and sells it to each other's patients for $300 plus a $200 dispensary/licensing fee tax.

That is what you propose as being okay. I fail to see how it's any better than this:

Bob is a caregiver for Barbette. Tom is a caregiver for Tulip. They give each of their patients 2oz/mo for $300.

In this situation the patients pay less, and the caregivers make the same amount of money.

If a CG got 1LB+ from 1x patients plants.. & 5lbs all together. Why should none of that 5lb go to the patients. It was there plant, so what.. once it's cut it is no longer there plants but your weed?

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You are the one proposing that a CG take most of the crop from the plants they care for and sell it to dispensaries!

I would suggest a JOB if someone has to charge there patients they grow for. Might make life easier, you know.. like enroll in school, have some ambitions.. work for a living.

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I would suggest a JOB for those patients who expect their caregivers to work for free and risk their lives, their property, and their freedom to serve them.

Or you are taking my posts to seriously thus providing me with a warm fuzzy feeling inside. I have an opinion on 1 type of grower here in cali who abuse the system. Nothing wrong with that nor is it false for thinking negatively about it. Because regardless of what you think, they do give the MMJ community a bad rep. When CGs are busted selling meds illegally it certainly is not helping our case, it certainly is not making the judges see your side of the story.

Pot growers & Farmers are not the same buddy. Only in a wet dream will someone be harvesting a crop with a Combine.

RawBudzski said:

I would suggest a JOB if someone has to charge there patients they grow for. Might make life easier, you know.. like enroll in school, have some ambitions.. work for a living.

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So why should being a CG be any different morally, financially, or legally from being a pharmacist, chemical engineer, farmer, nurse, whatever? What is wrong with someone dedicating their life to studying an producing medical marijuana? How is this different from working to produce and distribute a cancer drug?

You guys really gotta stop with stigmatizing cannabis and those related to its production and use. We have politicians and the media to do that for us. The only ones being immoral about cannabis were elected.

Caregivers MADE THE CHOICE TO SERVE THEM. CGs are not a designated doctor, they made the decision they wanted more plants legally.. and to do that. they need to grow # plants for "Average Joe". You are making the mistake of thinking those plants belong to the CG, they do not.

As I said earlier, once you get busted.. You'll be preaching about how those plants/buds are for/belong the patients. I bet you'll leave out the part on how you determine the prices.

and that is only been the case for barely 100yrs now. Up until the bigger snake oil salesman of the last 100 yrs, a Caregiver, Housewife, Midwife, or Medicine man/woman was your healer. For some highly religious it is still GOD that does their healing and these people are not shunned for their beliefs. Maybe looked at a little crosseye'd but they are not treated like criminals, except for the last 80 yrs now, coincidently enough.

A Caregiver, Traveling Dr/Midwife was often paid with a meal, a chicken, IOU, produce ect. it was only with the invent of a medical industry, did the rest of it become witchcraft, voodoo, and miracles.

point being, it is a way of life for some, and a way through life for others, again this has only been since the invent of the Medical Industry, instead of the Patient Care Industry.

Caregivers MADE THE CHOICE TO SERVE THEM.

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Patients made the choice to have caregivers grow for them and sell to them.

You are making the mistake of thinking those plants belong to the CG, they do not.

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Ask a lawyer - you're wrong.

As I said earlier, once you get busted.. You'll be preaching about how those plants/buds are for/belong the patients. I bet you'll leave out the part on how you determine the prices.

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Not everyone would snitch just because you would, and in Michigan if you get busted you're not allowed to mention mmj in court whatsoever, and that would include your patients.

Because regardless of what you think, they do give the MMJ community a bad rep. When CGs are busted selling meds illegally it certainly is not helping our case, it certainly is not making the judges see your side of the story.

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Once your arguments have been picked apart for selling to legal patients, you change the subject... I have said nothing about caregivers who sell illegally. I am only talking about ones selling legally to their registered patients which, in Michigan, is the ONLY LEGAL WAY TO TRANSFER.

First off you need to look at it like this...the average patient doesn't have the know how, space or funding to put together a functioning grow room. CG's are getting reimbursed for equipment costs, electricity costs, nute costs and hours of their time. If you could pay 300 an oz for some "top shelf" from the dispensary that you have NO clue where it came from....or be able to pay the same price straight from the grower where you have a better ability to see whats going in/on your plants...second option would probably be your best bet. This is a growers forum...so of course all of you are gonna pull the same "i'll just grow it myself" bullshit....and even then alot of the folks are growing non-medical quality bud in their closet with CFL's. ALOT of TIME and MONEY goes into growing this medicine correctly for patients....so why should growers be compensated decently?

I make over 100K a year sitting at home working in front of my computer....it's ALOT less work then growing pot...so if someone is earning 70-80K a year growing medicine then by all means do it. It's okay for pharmacutical companies to charge an arm and a leg for their medicine but not okay for growers to ask for simple compensation?

RawBudzski said:

Caregivers MADE THE CHOICE TO SERVE THEM. CGs are not a designated doctor, they made the decision they wanted more plants legally.. and to do that. they need to grow # plants for "Average Joe". You are making the mistake of thinking those plants belong to the CG, they do not.

As I said earlier, once you get busted.. You'll be preaching about how those plants/buds are for/belong the patients. I bet you'll leave out the part on how you determine the prices.

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This guy has the right idea. It's supposed to be about the patient, not the caregiver. Caregiving is something that is supposed to be done out of caring, not for profit.

I know he's in cali, but Cali has had some time to sort things out, as has Colorado...might want to start listening to how other States work.

RawBudzski said:

Now, let us talk about the non-mmj states & how I am for gurilla growers.

It's all about the principal! If you are out to break the law making profit from buds more power to you, just don't become a caregiver to disguise it.

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Amen, hallelujah, praise the lord!

some shops love to fuck the grower and fuck the employee and fuck the costomers.. they are called greedy the demon lerks hard and clever.. he shows no remorse or humblness all those demons want slaves and to serve them as a god.. nope not me they can suck my weenier..

This guy has the right idea. It's supposed to be about the patient, not the caregiver. Caregiving is something that is supposed to be done out of caring, not for profit.

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There is another form caregiver, one we are much more familiar with - one that does house visits for the disabled and very ill to check on them, change adult diapers, clean up, cook them food, chat with them, etc. They most certainly care deeply about the people they care for, or they wouldn't have chosen a career like that. But they are also most certainly paid. It's more appropriately called wages rather than profits, IMO, as the caregiver is the laborer, profits come when you pour money into something and walk away with more without doing the actual labor involved.

It's supposed to be about the patient, not the caregiver.

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I agree, and this is why I am insistent that transactions not be stigmatized. There is a reason Bill Schuette hailed the CoA ruling of September - he knows that the best way to drive a stake through the heart of mmj is to shut down commerce. If commerce is not legal, very little will be produced and most people will be left still buying brick on the street. Of course it's great to see charity but the fact is most people who consider becoming caregivers are likely desperate for money and scared of the potential legal consequences and so decent compensation will have to remain to keep production up. Supply and demand, risk and reward; these are the factors setting prices, not greed. Greed is independent of any given commercial good or industry; it is a constant force in economics, like gravity, pushing buyer and seller alike to aim for the best deal possible.

I am also in favor of legalizing as many distribution systems as possible to give patients further options, and the return of P2P so that poor patients can get help on their bills from other patients who aren't growing or have more money than them. Gotta agree with Bob on this one.

The good will be judged by their intent, the bad by their actions.

RawBudzski said:

Caregivers MADE THE CHOICE TO SERVE THEM. CGs are not a designated doctor, they made the decision they wanted more plants legally.. and to do that. they need to grow # plants for "Average Joe". You are making the mistake of thinking those plants belong to the CG, they do not.

As I said earlier, once you get busted.. You'll be preaching about how those plants/buds are for/belong the patients. I bet you'll leave out the part on how you determine the prices.

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Rawbud. It's pretty evident that you have no clue what you're talking about concerning the Michigan medical marijuana laws.

The ONLY LEGAL means of making money as a caregiver is to be reimbursed for expenses and time by your PATIENTS. Period, end of story.

I'm sure everyone in Michigan would love to see numerous ways that they could get rid of their overages for profit, but that's not the case here in Michigan. This is the *Michigan* thread.

I am fortunate enough to be in a financial situation where I can give free meds to my patients. An ounce a month for free, plus free medibles/hash .... anything above an beyond that is $200 an ounce. This was all agreed upon prior to them assigning me as their caregiver, and everything has went smooth so far. But I will not sit here and look down my nose (like you and others are doing) at caregivers, and their agreements with their patients. You make absolutely no sense when you condone dispensaries selling meds to people for $25 a gram ($700 an ounce), and then scoff at a caregiver for charging their patient a couple hundred bucks for an ounce. Which do you think is the better deal for the patient?

FatMarty said:

Been reading about these russet mites and soem other one you can't even see without a 60 to 100x magnification.
Picked up a small MicroMax 60-100 today to see if I got anything like that.

But after reading these last few posts I don't want to look.
Got no reason to think I do have any; but how do you know if it don't show up on a 30x microscope?
My old one is only 30x.

Wish me luck man.

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WooHoo! I passed the audition.
100x is a whole nother world from 30x.

Well worth the 15 or 20 bucks for the peace of mind.

thump easy said:

some shops love to fuck the grower and fuck the employee and fuck the costomers.. they are called greedy the demon lerks hard and clever.. he shows no remorse or humblness all those demons want slaves and to serve them as a god.. nope not me they can suck my weenier..

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you can say that again, v true and amusing..

st0wandgrow said:

Rawbud. It's pretty evident that you have no clue what you're talking about concerning the Michigan medical marijuana laws.

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This is a known fact.