Colloidal silver: the working mechanism

Guile

Active Member
So yeah, anyone know what role copper plays in determining a plants gender?
I've read of people getting dark/murky looking solutions when making their own colloidal silver and I'm thinking the copper might be partly responsible.

:leaf:ddimebag:leaf:
I'm curious too. it seems like copper is the most common metal silver is alloyed with...
 

ealerguy

Active Member
Silver ions bond with something that makes the plant believe it is a male part and thus produce male parts.
I read that somewhere in the last month. I am currently using CS right now. You are supposed to use it once a day starting a week before you start your flower cycle.

As for health issues I'm sure smoking it would be bad but they use CS for many health benefits. (idk if they really work)
 

usofly

Member
After some more research, I have a somewhat better understanding of the process. By default, a cannabis plant is male. The hormone ethylene is what tells it to make female flowers instead of male flowers. Ethylene production requires the presence of copper ions, which are locked up by the silver. Therefore, the plant thinks it is male, and will start producing male flowers. It doesn't seem to be a result of stress, where the female plant grows a couple of male flowers as a last ditch attempt to pass on its genetics. If silver colloid treatment does not stress the plant into hermaphrodism, this must mean that no extra hermaphroditic traits are passed down to subsequent generations. This would make silver colloid treatment more effective than techniques which rely on stress. Would this be an accurate description of the process? Did I get anything wrong?



What I would still like to know is what role the copper ions (or molecules) play in the production of female flowers, and how the absence of copper leads to the production of male flowers. Are there any botanists of biochemists here who could explain this?





how about using copper rods instead of silver to produce female hormones
 

Trousers

Well-Known Member
Colloidal silver does stress the plant. It causes a female to show male flowers. The pollen does not have a Y chromosome, so it can not produce a seed with an X and a Y chromosome. It is normal and natural, we are just taking advantage of it.

If you take two identical clones, make pollen with one and pollinate the other, you will get female seeds very similar to the mother. Assuming the mother is stable, the seeds will produce similar, stable plants.

You can absolutely use the pollen on other females to make crosses.
No one has offered me any solid evidence that breeding with feminized seeds would cause any problems even down the line multiple generations.

I am not saying it is a possibility, but I would like something besides specualtion.

I have made fem seeds from fem seeds and even made crosses. I will start generation two of the crosses this Spring. I'm not breeding, I am just chucking pollen. The resulting variations will be welcome.
 

Beachside

Member
The most important aspect to good science is not letting emotion or tradition obscure the facts!

Here are some things I know to be true:

X chromosomes carry almost every allele. Alleles are what carry genes. There are almost no positive alleles that are carried by the Y chromosome (most are related to degenerative diseases). Interestingly the one important allele carried by the Y is the one that determines sex (so the only gene passed from father to son, other then diseases, carries the trait to be male!). There has been much research lately in the idea that women carry every needed component to reproduction. Scientists have found that everything that makes us human comes from the X chromosome. That means they're fairly certain human men are not nessesary. This has been known in the plant world for longer as their genome was much easier to map. Many Canna Breeders have spoken out about the positive qualities of breeding female to female. Most important is the ability to estimate the characteristics of the offspring of two parents without having to test cross all available males.

On another note I have never heard of using colloidal silver to induce sex change. I have heard of (and used) a solution of silver thiosulfate. It takes a very small amount of chemicals mixed to solution then diluted, applied via foliar feed and immediately put into flower. The plant will look like its dying for two weeks and then green up and start to produce whole male flowers with pollen drop around day 30 (after application).

All the best!
 

Sychotic

Member
If you take two identical clones, make pollen with one and pollinate the other, you will get female seeds very similar to the mother. Assuming the mother is stable, the seeds will produce similar, stable plants.
The reason they would be similar is because you are basically inbreeding identical twins. Because of Meiosis and Crossing Over you would never get genetically identical offspring from self pollination. I would actually call this "Super Inbreeding" because the deleterious effects caused by inbreeding this way would build up faster than what is possible in human or animal inbreeding because identical twins cannot have different sexes in organisms that use X & Y chromosomes to determine sex. Some plants have X & Y chromosomes, Weed does not.

Now if by "stable" you mean a strain that is so inbred that all homologous chromosomes are exactly identical (which would be many years of careful inbreeding), then yes it is possible to overcome the meiotic process and produce genetically identical offspring. But until then you will still get the standard 50% same, 25% homozygous bad or 25% homozygous good for each trait. But even that is an oversimplification depending on whether the traits were codominant or not which makes the process more complicated than 25/50/25.
 

Sychotic

Member
The most important aspect to good science is not letting emotion or tradition obscure the facts!
Another important aspect of science is to know what you are talking about before using what you know to make assumptions.

First an allele is just a version of a gene. We all have eye color genes, what allele we have determines our specific eye color (there are multiple genes that control eye color and each has many alleles).

Second is that human genetics and Weed genetics are not the same. Weed does not use XY chromosomes to determine sex, using human genetics to illustrate Weed genetics only confuses the issue.

But the ability to breed female to female is a benefit for sure. You can exclusively use desired traits of females such as the quality/quantity of bud produced to determine what plants to breed, something that can't be done with male/female breeding.

Hope I cleared up some confusion.
 

Beachside

Member
Hahahahahahahah You couldn't have said it better yourself! Know what your talking about there genius. maybe you should do the tiniest bit of research before you stick you ignorant little foot in your big fat mouth! Do you even know what the word diploid means? Have you graduated high school?

I'm sorry that I got genes and alleles mixed up. It could have some thing to do with the fact I graduated college 15 years ago and have had very little need for that knowledge. I work in a field of marine bio that is far removed from genetic research. Now maybe you should try reading some scientific journals, or maybe just a basic plant bio text book to start! Cannabis is one of the very few plants that are diploid, meaning the pistil and stamin are located on separate plants. There has been a decent amount of research into cannabis because of the hemp industry. Some strains of cannabis are always diploid AND definitively use the XY or the XX system depending on said strain. Some plants are always monoecious, while the others are using a different chromosome but the theory on what have a following of scientists on differing fronts. Some believe the Y is larger then the X and thus we take it for different, some think the plant uses an XA system while a third group believes it has a currently unknown male sex determining chromosome. you see cannabis IS PREDOMINENTLY DIPLOID, and almost all drug strains are. ALL CANNABIS has two sets of ten chromosomes making a total of twenty. These two sets recombine to form offspring. One of those sets often times carries a gene which determines sex. The sex determining gene is always carried on the set of chromosomes that are passed from the male.

Stay in school kids and when your done never stop reading! If your smart you will at least get one masters degree but hopefully life excites you enough to create a great curiosity that can only be quenched through knowledge!
 

Sychotic

Member
So what you are saying is that Cannabis is Diploid (as opposed to the polyploidy of some plants and animals that are hermaphroditic/parthenogenic) like most other multicellular, eukaryotic organism that use sex for reproduction and that no one is sure what genetic mechanism is used to determine an individual plants sex. Thanks for clearing that up.

Also love the part where you say your more educated then act like a bratty kid.. welcome to the internet son, your going to have to prove what you say with links and pics.

I would actually appreciate some links to some research articles, I have been looking but the misinformation is thick out there.

So Beachside if you truly are an educated man, please have some intellectual honesty and brush up on your basics before you post, anything else hurts the conversation and confuses any layman who may be reading. Also mentioning research articles then not providing links or at least info that would make them easy to find damages both your credibility and stunts cooperative learning.

I am here to learn more about this subject, I have no illusions that I have all the answers and I apologize if what I said raised your ire by reminding you that you also do not know everything.

I don't want to start a pissing contest with anyone, lets work together and provide good information for everyone interested in this topic.
 

Sychotic

Member
Some plants are always monoecious, while the others are using a different chromosome
Correct me if I am wrong (with a link preferably), but if a plant species uses XY to determine sex it cannot be dioecious and monoecious because the Y chromosome carries the primary sexual characteristics of males that are used to make viable male gametes. XX females would not have the required genetic information to form the structures. If a plant can use a different chromosome to produce male primary sexual characteristics then that makes the system the plant uses to determine sex not a true XY system does it not?

Sex strategies.png
 

Beachside

Member
This stuff is extremely basic plant bio man! I just cut this from wiki. You really need to grab a used plant bio book and read it cover to cover while taking notes (no highlighting) and doing all the exersizes. If your interested in this kind of stuff I promise you will not be dissapointed! Not only will you understand breeding better but it will teach you what is truly needed to grow amazing plants. steer you away from all this heard mentality (like cutting leaves off or using high PK fertilizer in the face of the plants overall health declining).

[h=3]Individual plant sexuality[/h]Many plants have complete flowers that have both male and female parts, others only have male or female parts and still other plants have flowers on the same plant that are a mix of male and female flowers. Some plants even have mixes that include all three types of flowers, where some flowers are only male, some are only female and some are both male and female. A distinction needs to be made between arrangements of sexual parts and the expression of sexuality in single plants versus the larger plant population. Some plants also undergo what is called Sex-switching, like Arisaema triphyllum which express sexual differences at different stages of growth. In some arums smaller plants produce all or mostly male flowers and as plants grow larger over the years the male flowers are replaced by more female flowers on the same plant. Arisaema triphyllumthus covers a multitude of sexual conditions in its lifetime; from nonsexual juvenile plants to young plants that are all male, as plants grow larger they have a mix of both male and female flowers, to large plants that have mostly female flowers.[SUP][4][/SUP] Other plant populations have plants that produce more male flowers early in the year and as plants bloom later in the growing season they produce more female flowers. In plants like Thalictrum dioicum all the plants in the species are either male or female.

Terminology:

  • Hermaphrodite. In hermaphroditic species, each reproductive unit (as in flower, conifer cone or functional equivalent) of each individual has both male and female structures. In angiosperm terminology a synonym is monoclinous from the Greek "one bed".
  • Monoecious. In monoecious species, each individual has reproductive units that are merely female and reproductive units that are merely male. The name derives from Greek "monos" (one) and "ecos" (home). Individuals bearing separate flowers of both sexes at the same time are called simultaneously or synchronously monoecious. Individuals that bear flowers of one sex at one time are called consecutively monoecious; plants may first have single sexed flowers and then later have flowers of the other sex. Protoandrous orprotandrous describes individuals that function first as males and then change to females; protogynous describes individuals that function first as females and then change to males.
  • Dioecious. In dioecious species, each individual has reproductive units that are either merely male or merely female. That is, no individual plant of the population produces both microgametophytes (pollen) and megagametophytes (ovules).[SUP][5][/SUP] From Greek for "two households". [Individual plants are not called dioecious; they are either gynoecious (female plants) or androecious (male plants).]
    • Androecious, plants producing male flowers only, produce pollen but no seeds, the male plants of a dioecious population.
    • Gynoecious, plants producing female flowers only, produces seeds but no pollen, the female of a dioecious population. In some plant populations, all individuals are gynoecious with non sexual reproduction used to produce the next generation.
  • Subdioecious, a tendency in some dioecious populations to produce individuals that are not clearly male or female. The population produces normally male or female plants but some may be monoecious, hermaphroditic, or monoecious/hermaphroditic, with plants having perfect flowers, both male and female imperfect flowers, or some combination thereof, such as female and perfect flowers. Flowers may be in some state between purely male and female, with female flowers retaining non-functional male organs or vice versa. The condition is thought to represent a transition between hermaphroditism and dioecy.[SUP][6][/SUP][SUP][7][/SUP]
    • Gynomonoecious has both hermaphrodite and female units.
    • Andromonoecious has both hermaphrodite and male units.
    • Subandroecious has mostly male flowers, with a few female or hermaphrodite flowers.
    • Subgynoecious has mostly female flowers, with a few male or hermaphrodite flowers.
  • Polygamy, plants with male, female, and perfect (hermaphrodite) flowers on the same plant, called trimonoecious orpolygamomonoecious plants, (see next section for use for plant populations).[SUP][8][/SUP] A polygamous inflorescence has both unisexual and bisexual flowers.[SUP][9][/SUP]
    • Trimonoecious (polygamous) - male, female, and hermaphrodite floral morphs all appear on the same plant.
  • Diclinous ("two beds"), an angiosperm term, includes all species with unisexual flowers, although particularly those with onlyunisexual flowers, i.e. the monoecious and dioecious species.

[h=3]Plant population[/h]Often a species or a population within a species will have the same form of sexuality. Specific terms can then be used to describe the sexual expression of the group as a whole.

  • Hermaphrodite, plants whose flowers have both male and female parts.
  • Monoecious (meaning "one house" in Greek) plants have separate male and female flowers on the same plant. These plants are often wind pollinated. Examples of monoecious plants include corn (Zea mays),[SUP][10][/SUP]birch and pine trees,[SUP][11][/SUP] and most fig species.[SUP][12][/SUP]
  • Dioecious (meaning "two houses" in Greek), all plants are either female or male. The American Holly (Ilex opaca) is a famous example.
  • Androdioecious, both male and hermaphrodite plants present.
  • Gynodioecious, both female and hermaphrodite plants present. In some plants, strictly female plants are produced by the degeneration of the tapetum, a shell-like structure in the anther of a flower where the pollen cells form,[SUP][13][/SUP]
  • Gynoecy plants are all females in a population, often regulated by environmental factors like temperature, photo period or water availability.
  • Polygamous, when there is a mix of hermaphrodite and unisexual plants in the natural population.[SUP][14][/SUP]
    • Subdioecious, population of unisexual (dioecious) plants, with monoecious individuals too.[SUP][15][/SUP]
    • Trioecious, sometimes used in place of subdioecious when male, female, and hermaphrodite plants are more equally mixed within the same population.
  • Polygamodioecious, having bisexual and male flowers on some plants, and bisexual and female flowers on others.[SUP][16][/SUP]
About 11% of all angiosperms are strictly dioecious or monoecious. Intermediate forms of sexual dimorphism, including gynodioecy andandrodioecy, represent 7% of the species examined of a survey of 120,000 plant species. In the same survey, 10% of the species contain both unisexual and bisexual flowers.[SUP][17][/SUP]
The majority of plant species use allogamy, also called cross-pollination or outcrossing, as a means of breeding. Many plants are self-fertile and the male parts can pollinate the female parts of the same flower and/or same plant. Some plants use a method known as self-incompatibility to promote outcrossing. In these plants, the male organs cannot fertilize the female parts of the same plant; other plants produce male and female flowers at different times to promote outcrossing.
Sexual reproduction (involving meiosis and outcrossing) is the most common mode of reproduction among higher plants. As summarized by Bernstein and Bernstein, pp. 272-274.[SUP][18][/SUP] About 55% of higher plant species are principally sexual This includes plants that are dioecious and dichogamous. An additional 7% are partially sexual, i.e. partially self-fertilizing and partially cross-fertilizing. About 15% undergo meiosis, but are principally self-fertilizing, and significant out-crossing is lacking (autogamy). Only about 8% of higher plant species reproduce exclusively by non-sexual means. These include plants that reproduce vegetatively by runners or bulbils, or byapomixis. The selective advantage of outcrossing sex (the predominant form of reproduction in plants) appears to be the masking of deleterious recessive mutations (reviewed by Bernstein and Bernstein, pp. 272-289[SUP][18][/SUP].
Dichogamy is common in flowering plants, and occurs when bisexual (perfect) flowers (or sometimes entire plants) produce pollen when the stigmas of the same flower is not receptive of the pollen. This promotes outcrossing by limiting what is called autopollination or self-pollination or selfing.[SUP][19][/SUP] These plants are called dichogamous. Some plants have bisexual flowers but the pollen is produced before the stigma of the same flower is receptive of pollen, these are described as protandrous flowers; in a similar way, protogyny describes flowers that have stigmas that can accept pollen before the same flower or plant sheds its pollen.[SUP][8][/SUP]

  • Autogamy. Self-fertilization. Fusion of male and female gametes, usually from the same individual.
  • Apomixis: Asexual reproduction through seeds
 

Beachside

Member
Excuse me but you are adding all the disinformation here bud. You claim the cannabis doesn't have XY huh? Read a book before you go making asinine comments on public forums! You don't have a cursory understanding of plant bio let alone have you done even a cursory web review about the sexual reproduction of cannabis. You sit there and say I am acting like a child when your initial post was an unfounded attack on solid information. Then you ASK ME to do your web review?!? I am not wasting my time doing your homework child! Would you like me to set you down and teach you any other courses that the rest of us spent many many hours working very hard at to EDUCATE OURSELVES?

Dont attack another's work unless you are absolutely sure your work stands on solid ground! And a person vehemently defending the truth is not by any means "acting like a bratty kid"! You little boy are an example of a classic uneducated person. You know so little that you assume you know it all.
 

Sychotic

Member
I just cut this from wiki.
I appreciate the explanation to the figure I posted on this subject, I thought that figure would be enough for people who needed to see the differences between hermaphrodite, monoecious and dioecious as it applied to cannabis (the topic of this thread).

But what I was hoping for in particular was something to backup your assertion that cannabis can use an XY system yet produce an XX monoecious plant that uses exclusively male primary sexual structures to produce viable male gametes.

Telling me to read a textbook cover to cover is not an answer to this logical question. If you don't have the answer just say so.
 

Beachside

Member
Well this took me less then two minutes to find. Like I said I'm not going to do your web review. Have some fucking integrity and RESEARCH! If you haven't yet been to high school and thus have never been taught how to to do book and web reviews then I emplore you to stay in school and learn such things. In the mean time here is a hint; read everything you can (that includes wiki) then find out their sources and read those. Continue until exhausted then repeat. Now you can balance apposing theory against the validity of their relative experiments.

Cannabis has been described as having one of the most complicated mechanisms of sex determination among the dioecious plants.[SUP][68][/SUP] Many models have been proposed to explain sex determination in Cannabis.
Based on studies of sex reversal in hemp, it was first reported by K. Hirata in 1924 that an XY sex-determination system is present.[SUP][66][/SUP] At the time, the XY system was the only known system of sex determination. The X:A system was first described in Drosophila spp in 1925.[SUP][69][/SUP] Soon thereafter, Schaffner disputed Hirata's interpretation,[SUP][70][/SUP] and published results from his own studies of sex reversal in hemp, concluding that an X:A system was in use and that furthermore sex was strongly influenced by environmental conditions.[SUP][67][/SUP]
Since then, many different types of sex determination systems have been discovered, particularly in plants.[SUP][61][/SUP] Dioecy is relatively uncommon in the plant kingdom, and a very low percentage of dioecious plant species have been determined to use the XY system. In most cases where the XY system is found it is believed to have evolved recently and independently.[SUP][71][/SUP]
Since the 1920s, a number of sex determination models have been proposed for Cannabis. Ainsworth describes sex determination in the genus as using "an X/autosome dosage type".[SUP][61][/SUP]

A male hemp plant.​



Dense raceme of carpellate flowers typical of drug-type varieties ofCannabis.​

The question of whether heteromorphic sex chromosomes are indeed present is most conveniently answered if such chromosomes were clearly visible in a karyotype. Cannabis was one of the first plant species to be karyotyped; however, this was in a period when karyotype preparation was primitive by modern standards (see History of Cytogenetics). Heteromorphic sex chromosomes were reported to occur in staminate individuals of dioecious "Kentucky" hemp, but were not found in pistillate individuals of the same variety. Dioecious "Kentucky" hemp was assumed to use an XY mechanism. Heterosomes were not observed in analyzed individuals of monoecious "Kentucky" hemp, nor in an unidentified German cultivar. These varieties were assumed to have sex chromosome composition XX.[SUP][72][/SUP] According to other researchers, no modern karyotype ofCannabis had been published as of 1996.[SUP][73][/SUP] Proponents of the XY system state that Y chromosome is slightly larger than the X, but difficult to differentiate cytologically.[SUP][74][/SUP]
More recently, Sakamoto and various co-authors[SUP][75][/SUP][SUP][76][/SUP] have used RAPD to isolate several genetic marker sequences that they name Male-Associated DNA in Cannabis (MADC), and which they interpret as indirect evidence of a male chromosome. Several other research groups have reported identification of male-associated markers using RAPD and AFLP.[SUP][77][/SUP][SUP][78][/SUP][SUP][79][/SUP] Ainsworth commented on these findings, stating,
"It is not surprising that male-associated markers are relatively abundant. In dioecious plants where sex chromosomes have not been identified, markers for maleness indicate either the presence of sex chromosomes which have not been distinguished by cytological methods or that the marker is tightly linked to a gene involved in sex determination.[SUP][61][/SUP] "
 

Beachside

Member

      • You didn't even read the entire post did you?
      • Subdioecious, population of unisexual (dioecious) plants, with monoecious individuals too.


 

Sychotic

Member
I am not wasting my time doing your homework child!
Yet you posted a wiki cut/paste. You either did that to "do my homework" or you agreed with me that you should back up what you say with links and pics. I had hoped you did it out of some altruistic feeling welling up inside you, that hope has since faded.

I had thought I asked nicely enough that since you are so much more educated then me that you could help me out with a link or two (the point of forums I thought) I guess altruism is not your thing.

a person vehemently defending the truth is not by any means "acting like a bratty kid"!
I would think someone trying to defend truth on a forum would use outside information to back up what they say, which is not what you did. You did something else and I will let others reading this thread apply a label to the behavior from now on.
 

Sychotic

Member

      • You didn't even read the entire post did you?
      • Subdioecious, population of unisexual (dioecious) plants, with monoecious individuals too.


If that is what you meant in your first post why didn't you say so?

You still didn't answer my question though. If cannabis is subdioecious, how can it use an XY system to determine an individual plants sex? You made the assertion that it could, you back it up.

The wiki entry you posted says there are many theories but none have been proven. My argument was that it can't be a simple XY system due to cannabis's known characteristics. You can't throw some chemicals on an XX female and have it start shooting viable loads, to put it graphically.
 

Beachside

Member
That is not an assertion, that is a well known fact! And I am telling you to read a text book because this is VERY basic and if you had been to college you would know these things. Since you obviously haven't and just want to pretend you know some thing I am suggesting you educate ourself you so you don't distort what cursory understanding people do have. If you don't know then don't post things like "cannabis doesn't use XY" and yes young one there are life forms with the described characteristics you are looking for.

Again don't attack some one with out having the knowledge to back yourself up with. If you read a comment that you disagree but really have never taken an active role to truely educate yourself on.... BEFORE you post some foot-in-mouth asinine comment (proving to the world how little you know) take at least an hour or two and start a cursory web review. Then you won't piss people off who could help you understand the intracacies of a science you know very little about. This should be a place where people discuss the real science behind various horticultural practices. That takes an educated population and from what I have seen people only want answers to questions that were answered in high school first and then thuroughly answered in excruciating detail during undergrad. It drives me up a wall that no one cares enough to fucking read something. Everyone just wants instant gratification and cares only about apperience. There is no substince behind their regurgitated understanding.
 
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