Colorado Med Growers, Unite

NewGrowth

Well-Known Member
Dude, you sound like you're about 17. You're telling Ed to get off his 'high horse' when you're making all the egregious and arrogant statements.

If you're 'medicine' is so good you have nothing to worry about in terms of competition with these 'little closet growers' as you put it, right?

All I'm saying is that the free market will decide. Is the model you present any more sustainable than the 'closet growers'? I dont necessarily think so.
I don't know where you got all that from but "little closet growers" is certainly not an insult.

Ed said growers are charging too much for meds, I just pointed out how misinformed he is in regards to all the money, time, and effort that is put into a commercial grow operation.

I also stated pretty clearly the reasons we do not buy our meds from small closet growers. Those reasons are: inconsistent and too small of a quantity.

I'm not trying to give my patients wet pot one day and cured the next. My goal is to offer a consistent product from reliable and safe sources. I don't feel bad turning people down because I know they can get rid of it easily elsewhere.

This is not necessarily the way all dispensaries operate and my patients are welcome to go elsewhere for a $65 wet 1/8 . . . let the free market decide :peace:
 

nca777

Member

Is it just me or does this bill look like a win for the mmj referral industry as well as the dispensaries?

It seems somewhat counterintuitive in that it makes it more costly and difficult for a patient to get mj while creating an additional service for the businesses. I could only see this spurring more growth in mmj referral services while essentially legitimizing it. In the meantime, dispensaries will find a way to separate services and collect from both ends.

"Closet growers' and the like will be forced underground once again and there will be a healthy 'black market' contingent for those not up to jumping theough the hoops of obtaining a license.

Personally, I could do without 85% of the wavy-lettered, pseaudo-cleverly named 'mmj dealers.'
 

NewGrowth

Well-Known Member
New,

Bull. Every one of those items you mentioned is simple to figure the cost on in advance. Anybody can calculate their electrical usage to the penny if they are willing to take a couple of minutes to do the math, and I don't see any reason why you should have all kinds of costs to move around in the first place. As for lost harvests, agricultural accounting allows you to treat a certain percentage of each crops costs as a loss until a profit is actually realized on it for that very reason. You're just ducking the issue and throwing fake costs at me to try and hide the fact that you run profit margins that are far higher then in any other industry.

I have plenty of respect for growers, just not for the ones that pretend that they are doing us a favor when they sell us an 1/8th for $45 when their own cost was less then $25. And yes, i do know what it costs to grow commercially- I do my caregivers books for him. Thanks. You can dislike me all you want, but you better start paying attention and learn how the real business world works or someone like me is going to come along and put you out of business.
Guess I missed your post.
I can do math too ed $25 1/8= $200 an Ounce or $3200 a pound I' selling my meds for below my production costs! :roll:

According to your 20% theory we are charging in your range $30 an 1/8 (I said at most $45)
The statement about "higher mark-up than any other industry" is BS at those prices, hydroponic equipment is routinely marked 40-50% above wholesale maybe you should tell them about your 20% rule :wink:
want to give me anymore business lessons? :-|

PS- I don't dislike you ed, just disinformation

Is it just me or does this bill look like a win for the mmj referral industry as well as the dispensaries?

It seems somewhat counterintuitive in that it makes it more costly and difficult for a patient to get mj while creating an additional service for the businesses. I could only see this spurring more growth in mmj referral services while essentially legitimizing it. In the meantime, dispensaries will find a way to separate services and collect from both ends.

"Closet growers' and the like will be forced underground once again and there will be a healthy 'black market' contingent for those not up to jumping theough the hoops of obtaining a license.

Personally, I could do without 85% of the wavy-lettered, pseaudo-cleverly named 'mmj dealers.'
That bill is not a win for anyone:cry: It states pretty clearly that patients will not even be allowed to grow their own medicine. It will shut down the dispensaries as well. The cost for a patients to obtain a card will also go up to about $1000.
 

nca777

Member
Guess I missed your post.
I can do math too ed $25 1/8= $200 an Ounce or $3200 a pound I' selling my meds for below my production costs! :roll:

According to your 20% theory we are charging in your range $30 an 1/8 (I said at most $45)
The statement about "higher mark-up than any other industry" is BS at those prices, hydroponic equipment is routinely marked 40-50% above wholesale maybe you should tell them about your 20% rule :wink:
want to give me anymore business lessons? :-|

PS- I don't dislike you ed, just disinformation



That bill is not a win for anyone:cry: It states pretty clearly that patients will not even be allowed to grow their own medicine. It will shut down the dispensaries as well. The cost for a patients to obtain a card will also go up to about $1000.
I may admittedly be missing something here (http://coloradomedicalmarijuana.net/Romer-Spence-bill.pdf), but I dont see anything which specifically addresses a patients right to grow for him/her self.

It looks like the bill aims to add separation between doctors/referral services and dispensaries and tighten the rules governing doctor-patient relations.

I see it perhaps as more of an invasion of privacy in the doctor-patient relationship than a blow to mmj growers.
 

NewGrowth

Well-Known Member
I may admittedly be missing something here (http://coloradomedicalmarijuana.net/Romer-Spence-bill.pdf), but I dont see anything which specifically addresses a patients right to grow for him/her self.

It looks like the bill aims to add separation between doctors/referral services and dispensaries and tighten the rules governing doctor-patient relations.

I see it perhaps as more of an invasion of privacy in the doctor-patient relationship than a blow to mmj growers.
I've got the full bill printed in my car, I'll grab it and post the link for you tomorrow.
 

doogleef

Well-Known Member
Romer's original bill created 3 different licenses and all kinds of crap. He got so much opposition from both MMJ and law enforcement that he scrapped most of it and put forth this much smaller bill. Three main changes happen as soon as this passes the state house and Ritter signs it (which he will). The link posted above is the stripped down bill without amendments. I'll find the SB109 amended they actually passed today and post it but the greatest hits are:

1. Dispensaries can no longer reimburse the doctors.
2. Doctors referring patients mush have a relationship with a patient involving a review of medical history and a full medical exam, prior to writing a recommendation.
3. Those between 18 and 21 would have to get the backing of two doctors before becoming medical marijuana users.
 

nca777

Member
Romer's original bill created 3 different licenses and all kinds of crap. He got so much opposition from both MMJ and law enforcement that he scrapped most of it and put forth this much smaller bill. Three main changes happen as soon as this passes the state house and Ritter signs it (which he will). The link posted above is the stripped down bill without amendments. I'll find the SB109 amended they actually passed today and post it but the greatest hits are:

1. Dispensaries can no longer reimburse the doctors.
2. Doctors referring patients mush have a relationship with a patient involving a review of medical history and a full medical exam, prior to writing a recommendation.
3. Those between 18 and 21 would have to get the backing of two doctors before becoming medical marijuana users.
Thats what I understood as well. I dont see this as a huge change.
 
Hows it going bro. Im down in FL and i'm going to be moving to the CO area as well towards the end of this year. I was wondering if you know how the certification process works to cultivate. I got into an accident a while back and have had pinched nervers in my neck ever since so the idea of MJ as a cure is better to me than addictive pain killers.
 

growman09

Active Member
you gotta find a doc that will write you a rec. most need med. records but they just passed some bill that changes the whol doc process but you dont need your recomendation to grow just someone to designate you thier caregiver but who knows that will prob. change soon too.
 

Shawn420

Member
Hey guys whats up? I'm just startin out on setting up my first grow. The cab i designed is about 3 ft wide X 5 ft Tall X 2 1/2 ft thick and is converted out of an armoire. I need to install a fan and carbon filter into it and was wondering if anyone could help me out.

What do you think of this set up http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

I forgot to mention i will be using 2 125 Watt CFL's and various 26 watters. Also intake will be a passive intake with the fan being the exhaust. Any tips are appreciated.
 

doogleef

Well-Known Member
A Colorado Physician Responds to SB 109

Submitted by lebowski on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 09:07
Publish Date:
02/02/2010


To whom it may concern,
Regarding Senate Bill 109, I think this is a case of legislators trying to regulate something that they do not fully understand. I am not sure if any of the legislators have been physicians or have any knowledge of the medical profession.
I am a physician here in private practice in Denver and I also do medical marijuana evaluations. I think that this particular law is misguided in several ways. For instance, currently for my evaluations, I do keep records on every patient seen just as I do in my regular practice. In addition, I also inform the patients of their HIPPA rights and keep their files private as I would any other patient. Each patient is seen and their physical findings are documented such as scars, limps, amputions or other physical findings. The patients do not all have a full physical examination, however, I do document any physical findings that are pertinent. In addition, when I see patients at my regular practice, they do not receive a full examination at every visit. If a patient is coming to the doctor for a sore throat, I do not do a Pap Smear or neurological exam on them for instance. I do check their throat, ears and lungs and heart as well as for a rash. This is consistent with the standards of medical practice.
In addition, many conditions do not have any physical findings. If I have a patient suffering from migraines, they do not have any physical findings unless they are actually having a migraine the day they visit my office and usually if they are having a migraine, they do not come to the primary care doctors office or the medical marijuana evaluation either. From that perspective, a patient suffering from AIDS, breast or lung cancer, or glaucoma may not have any findings on physical exam. AIDS patients are diagnosed by blood work which is not done in the doctor’s office. Glaucoma patients can be diagnosed but only with specialized equipment found in opthomologists’ offices. Breast or lung cancer may not be apparent unless the patient has already had a mastectomy or a lung removed.
If I have a patient that suffers from migraines, I do not require them to come into my office in tears, vomiting from the nausea before I would prescribe them migraine medications. I think this would be cruel. I also have many patients that have old back injuries that periodically use pain killers or muscle relaxers for their backs. I do not require them to get an MRI every year or come to the office if they are so bad they cannot even get out of bed that day. If they are not having a flare-up, there are not going to be any physical findings on that particular visit.
I do believe that sometimes patients are fraudulent both in my regular primary care office as well as the marijuana evaluations but I think it is a doctor’s responsibility to believe his patients for the most part. For instance, I have several obese patients who swear to me that they exercise every day and follow a low calorie, low fat diet. I do find this incredulous, but I do not deny these patients their cholesterol or blood pressure medications because perhaps they are not completely truthful. For that matter, I do not deny them their pain medications for the arthritis that obesity contributes to.
I find that medical marijuana has helped some patients that other therapies have not been very helpful or have been toxic. Several patients are using this in conjunction with their regular medications as well as chiropractic manipulation, acupuncture, chemotherapy and other modalities. Since many pain conditions are chronic , I am supportive of patients using different modalities to treat their pain. Many patients also have intermittent conditions such as gout for which they only need medication a few times a year. In addition there are double blinded placebo controlled studies supporting the use of marijuana for various conditions.
I find that many of my patients are already frustrated by having their insurance companies tell the doctors what medications they can and cannot use and now the government is doing the same thing. I do think there are physicians that are unethical, but this is not limited to the medical marijuana physicians and if a patient goes to a pain clinic for vicodin refills, the doctor does not even see the patients every time and gives them refills and I can guarantee you that they take a less comprehensive history than I do. I wonder if any of the congressmen sponsoring this law have ever actually visited a physician.
I believe that by regulating the medical marijuana in the proposed way, the legislators are going to punish some of the doctors that are perhaps less ethical in their approach to patient care, but I believe that many more patients are going to suffer than the few “bad” doctors out there. These same doctors are also probably not the best physicians out in private practice and perhaps the provision that doctors that have been previously sanctioned should not be allowed to prescribe is not a bad idea, but that would really depend on what the doctor was sanctioned for and should probably be evaluated on a case by case basis.
I became a physician to alleviate suffering and disease and really try to help my patients. I believe in upholding the Hippocratic Oath. I wonder if the legislators are upholding their obligations to their constituents when trying to cut down on medicinal marijuana which was obviously favored by the majority of their constituents when passed as a constitutional amendment.
Thank you for your time and please feel free to contact me with any questions or concerns,
Dr. S
An addendum:
In addition, to those that have reported that they feel that when dispensaries owners or caregivers pay the physicians there is a conflict of interest, I would like to point out that there are clinics in Walmarts and Walgreen's all over town. Just like in the dispensaries, the physicians and providers there will see a patient and write a prescription. The patient is then allowed to go anywhere in the state of Colorado to fill their prescription. The patients are most likely to fill their prescriptions at the walmart or walgreens because they are already there, but they are not required to do so. I do not see how this differs from the patients getting the recommendation at a dispensary. They are welcome to purchase their medication then at a dispensary, but they can also go to any dispensary in town with the appropriate documentation. For that matter, if conflicts of interest are really a concern, how about going after the insurance companies who have no interest at all in the health of patients and try to limit their care at every opportunity in order to make a profit. It should also be noted that the insurance companies are actually paying the physicians and some physicians in HMO's are bonused on how much money the doctor "saves" the HMO, not on how many lives the doctor saves. Talk about a conflict of interest. Not only that, but most of the visits for the medical marijuana evaluations are paid by the patients and not by a dispensary or caregiver.
I also would like to note that there is no requirement for a minimum number of visits, age, physical or other restrictions for physicians with any other medications from antibiotics to blood pressure medications to narcotics. There is no restriction for a physician recommending vitamins or other supplements or chinese herbs if the physician feels like it is in the best interest of the patient.
I would also like to comment that I have never been sued for malpractice and have not been sanctioned by the board or had any disciplinary actions by the board in the past and am in good standing in the professional community. I also do not use medicinal marijuana as I do not have any conditions for which I need it and have not been a user in the past, but I do support it's use for patients that need it.
Once again, thank you for your consideration.
Dr. S
 

DannyGreenEyes

Well-Known Member
Hey guys whats up? I'm just startin out on setting up my first grow. The cab i designed is about 3 ft wide X 5 ft Tall X 2 1/2 ft thick and is converted out of an armoire. I need to install a fan and carbon filter into it and was wondering if anyone could help me out.

What do you think of this set up http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

I forgot to mention i will be using 2 125 Watt CFL's and various 26 watters. Also intake will be a passive intake with the fan being the exhaust. Any tips are appreciated.
You can save $20 by getting it here. I bought 3 light set ups for $320 & got free shipping too. www.htgsupply.com
 

NewGrowth

Well-Known Member
Romer's original bill created 3 different licenses and all kinds of crap. He got so much opposition from both MMJ and law enforcement that he scrapped most of it and put forth this much smaller bill. Three main changes happen as soon as this passes the state house and Ritter signs it (which he will). The link posted above is the stripped down bill without amendments. I'll find the SB109 amended they actually passed today and post it but the greatest hits are:

1. Dispensaries can no longer reimburse the doctors.
2. Doctors referring patients mush have a relationship with a patient involving a review of medical history and a full medical exam, prior to writing a recommendation.
3. Those between 18 and 21 would have to get the backing of two doctors before becoming medical marijuana users.
Seems Romer was forced to cut down his bill quite a bit, now maybe we can defeat this extra red tape in the House . . . Obviously has little to do with anything but money.

This is just going to raise the already high costs for a patient to obtain MMJ. Romer's 'MMJ Board' will be paid for by extra fees levied on the patient. I see little purpose though, if a dispensary can not reimburse the doctor then we will just reimburse the patient . . .

Thanks for posting good info doogleef, I'm glad to see that the original abomination of a bill was cut down into this . . . .
 

NewGrowth

Well-Known Member
Looks like they are trying to set-up state sanctioned dispensaries. The places would have to be BIG operations to grow all of their own meds and meet all the new licensing requirements being put forth. It's possible the whole thing has been Hi-Jacked by big money interests
 

nca777

Member
Looks like they are trying to set-up state sanctioned dispensaries. The places would have to be BIG operations to grow all of their own meds and meet all the new licensing requirements being put forth. It's possible the whole thing has been Hi-Jacked by big money interests
What a sham.

I find it funny that I'm actually arguing on the side of free market capitalism, less government regulation. Actually, it's more like moderation that I'm after. This country cant do anything in moderation-it's one extremem or another, all or nothing, liberal-conservative.

It certainly looks like it's been hijacked and money talks. I'm sending an email to Romer tonight anyway and I'd encourage the rest of you here to do the same.

Free market will iron out the kinks. I can understand the need for some govt moderation , specifically in regard to zoning and some age limits/regulation, but handing it all over to the highest bidder is counterintuitive to the purpose of the bill. Doesnt anyone else see the irony?

This bill will simply put more money in the pockets of doctors, law enforcement (when we see they follow this bill with new posession and cultivation penalties), and a select few dispensaries.

If this bill passes, there will be a healthy black market contingent. Which is good for the grower/service giver, and very bad for the patient no matter how you look at it.

dumb.
 

nca777

Member
What a sham.

I find it funny that I'm actually arguing on the side of free market capitalism, less government regulation. Actually, it's more like moderation that I'm after. This country cant do anything in moderation-it's one extremem or another, all or nothing, liberal-conservative.

It certainly looks like it's been hijacked and money talks. I'm sending an email to Romer tonight anyway and I'd encourage the rest of you here to do the same.

Free market will iron out the kinks. I can understand the need for some govt moderation , specifically in regard to zoning and some age limits/regulation, but handing it all over to the highest bidder is counterintuitive to the purpose of the bill. Doesnt anyone else see the irony?

This bill will simply put more money in the pockets of doctors, law enforcement (when we see they follow this bill with new posession and cultivation penalties), and a select few dispensaries.

If this bill passes, there will be a healthy black market contingent. Which is good for the grower/service giver, and very bad for the patient no matter how you look at it.

dumb.

Here is my email to Romer if anyone is wondering what they can write or could use some ideas, whether or not you agree with my points specifically:

Senator Romer,

First, I would like to thank you for taking the time to pursue the best interests of the Colorado community. I do not agree with much of what is proposed in SB 109. I believe the bill would:

1.) give more control to select few businesses able to comply with the strict guidelines for operation,

2.) fuel a 'black market' contingent

3.) encourage illegal activity and discourage patients from pursuing medication legitimately.

I urge you to please consider moderate regulation through the re-structuring of the supply and demand model in a fashion which is conducive to free market capitalist activity, safe, and in compliance with the health, safety, and well-being of both the general population and the interest of the greater populous of entrepreneurs, business people, citizens, and patients.

Specifically, I would like to see the 'growers license' initiative investigated further as it would allow competition, better quality of medication, and legitimite work for those unemployed or underemployed.

Thank you for your time.

Now, I also wanted to add that I think we can also thank all the idiot dispensaries out there for effing it up for the rest of us. (see 'ganjaland toker heaven' complete with 4:20 specials :spew:in downtown denver).
 

NewGrowth

Well-Known Member
What a sham.

I find it funny that I'm actually arguing on the side of free market capitalism, less government regulation. Actually, it's more like moderation that I'm after. This country cant do anything in moderation-it's one extremem or another, all or nothing, liberal-conservative.

It certainly looks like it's been hijacked and money talks. I'm sending an email to Romer tonight anyway and I'd encourage the rest of you here to do the same.

Free market will iron out the kinks. I can understand the need for some govt moderation , specifically in regard to zoning and some age limits/regulation, but handing it all over to the highest bidder is counterintuitive to the purpose of the bill. Doesnt anyone else see the irony?

This bill will simply put more money in the pockets of doctors, law enforcement (when we see they follow this bill with new posession and cultivation penalties), and a select few dispensaries.

If this bill passes, there will be a healthy black market contingent. Which is good for the grower/service giver, and very bad for the patient no matter how you look at it.

dumb.
Well written nca, I was composing an e-mail along the same lines. This is just going to push things back into a black market. We need some regulation but it should be geared towards protecting patients while allowing safe access at a reasonable cost. This bill is aimed at keeping law enforcement gainfully employed here in Colorado as well.
 
Top