Corruption.

Mr.KushMan · May 18, 2010

I just read two socio-political theories that perfectly describe the american situation that I suggest most should read about, the first called 'Divide and Conquer' is a fairly old war tactic that was adapted for large non-violent populations, the other called the 'Spiral of Silence' describes a persons fear of speaking out when they believe they are a portion of the minority.

Also if you read the stats education follows a proportionate relationship with national debt. And debt follows proportionately along the money supply trend, so one could contend that the reason people are so hopelessly blind is the same reason they are in debt is the same reason they are so badly educated, and thusly have a self-invented high self-esteem, driving up domestic violence.

Peace

NoDrama · May 18, 2010

medicineman said:
I guess if one is not afraid to go to prison, one could follow the above. Funny thing, the powers that be single out non-complying individuals and punish them.

If you make no money you pay no taxes, nothing illegal about that. I don't think he was advocating non payment of taxes. Drop out of the economy and stop fueling the insanity.

NoDrama · May 18, 2010

Social Programs, the Military, Wars, Regulations, Central Banks and Fiat currencies are all anathema to a well governed State. They promote growth of government and the incessant need of the governing body to preserve itself first and foremost before tackling any issues.

Personally I know I could do a hell of a lot better with all of my money than having the government tax me and then waste 90% of it on bribes, waste, and outright theft and fraud.

RIGHT NOW banks are borrowing money from the Fed at 0% interest, then they buy US treasuries (Bonds) that pay about 4% interest and earn 4% profit. They are able to do this due to the influx of TARP bailout cash that boosts their bottom lines. In essence they are borrowing the money BACK TO US at 4% interest that they borrowed from us for nothing. Oh and we pay the ultimate tax too, inflation as the kicker. We are getting fucked big time, yet the majority is blind to this sleight of hand the banks have dealt us. THE US citizen PAYS for all the interest that bond holders receive, and where do they get the money to pay all of this interest, INCOME TAXES!!! That's right, all of your income tax is used to pay the bankers who are able to borrow for nothing, make a riskless profit and make a killing keeping the common man in debt to his eyeballs. Don't even get me started on the Fed, the great evil that made all of this possible.

Dolce Vita · May 18, 2010

Good points friends! It is 2010 and i think if the people stand up and we vote in honest people we would have the majority and maybe right the wrongs..

haha wishfull thinking right.

What would you suggest that we can do, as the people, at our level?

NoDrama · May 18, 2010

Stop watching television, it makes you stupid.

ancap · May 19, 2010

undertheice said:
not only do we allow it, we practically demand it. the push for government to mitigate socioeconomic inequalities, to force industry to follow more socialistically inclined paths and to calm the instabilities of the marketplace are perfect examples of how we are handing our unresponsive representatives the keys to the kingdom and denying our own responsibilities. we demand our society be more responsive to the needs of the poor and insist government force us in that direction instead of giving of ourselves, as a responsible people should. turmoil erupts in our economy and we go crying to our leaders to make sure the damage done to our finances isn't too drastic. instead of investigating our purchases and the means by which they are brought to the marketplace, as conscientious consumers should, we demand government over-regulate industry to give us the illusion of safety. we ask government to do all this and more, refusing to admit that it is the responsibility of the people themselves to see to their own security and stability.

of course it is government's natural tendency to expand itself, but that can only be accomplished with the complicity of the people and their tacit approval through inaction. all it takes to limit government's power is for the people to deny its intrusion into their lives, but fear, greed, jealousy and indolence keep us sliding ever faster toward total government control.

So people are born into a totally corrupt system that attracts the most manipulative narcissists in society like a magnet. Then the system that they were born into indoctrinates them through public schooling, and their own parents who were themselves indoctrinated, to believe that the system is benevolent and can solve their problems. It creates foreign and domestic enemies to further manipulate the public's fears to gain their allegiance. The system gives them jobs and loot, and tells them that they can vote for new manipulative narcissists every couple years to trick them into thinking that they are not slaves. The public becomes so abusively brainwashed, that genuinely good people are absolutely convinced by their masters that people caught growing a cannabis plant should be kidnapped and put in a cage where they might be raped (and for eighty years they know this and can sleep peacefully at night because they cannot see the inherent evil). This abusive pattern repeats for generations. The people as a whole had no sliver of a chance at preventing this propagandizing indoctrination beast from infecting them, and to an enlightened outside eye this whole process would have been so predictable from the beginning since this played out pattern has been inflicted on societies throughout history. Undertheice, after looking at all this evidence, you decide that your energies are best spent exposing the people and not the system which has outgrown the people? Sorry, I'm not trying to be over dramatic. I only want clarification from you specifically because I think we are closer to overall agreement than not, based on your history of posts.

Yes, the brainwashed masses are enabling the system to continue, but it seems like you are spending more energy here blaming the victim rather than the abuser. The abuser needs to be blamed; the brainwashed need to be saved. It also seems unjust to blame the people who see the system for what it is, and decide not to engage it whenever possible... for many because they do not wish to give sanction to evil. Libertarians couldn't slow this beast a century ago when it was rolling down the hill at 20 miles per hour, and they certainly can't slow it down present day when it's barreling downhill at 200 miles per hour. The system will collapse because violence is not sustainable in the long term. Society needs to be awakened one person at a time, until like slavery, everyone sees it for what it is... institutionalized evil; and we don't need one drop of it in our social body.

medicineman · May 19, 2010

NoDrama said:
If you make no money you pay no taxes, nothing illegal about that. I don't think he was advocating non payment of taxes. Drop out of the economy and stop fueling the insanity.

I guess that would be fine for all you rich dicks, people with enough money to live on for the rest of their lives. Most regular people live paycheck to paycheck, not much cushion to drop out with. I guess you must be advocating a life of crime for those people, and then one is right back in the soup, only this time they are criminals and will eventually be sent to prison. I guess one could drop out and then rely on the prison system to support them, not exactly my cup of "TEA". You libertartians are ineffectual dreamers, always supposing the rest of society should live as you portend to be, self sufficient. The problem is, most people can't go a week without a paycheck, or they will be out in the cold. You always expect everyone to be as you think of yourselves, whether you are that way or really not, and just bullshitting yourself and everyone you come into contact with. Me thinks the libertarians are a shallow breed, a selfish bragging bunch of above average salaried individuals that think everyone should be as them, and those that are not are less than human. Just mellow out and try and understand that all humans are not as fortunate as you and could never just drop out, a real fantasy if ever there were.

Parker · May 19, 2010

ancap said:
So people are born into a totally corrupt system that attracts the most manipulative narcissists in society like a magnet. Then the system that they were born into indoctrinates them through public schooling, and their own parents who were themselves indoctrinated, to believe that the system is benevolent and can solve their problems. It creates foreign and domestic enemies to further manipulate the public's fears to gain their allegiance. The system gives them jobs and loot, and tells them that they can vote for new manipulative narcissists every couple years to trick them into thinking that they are not slaves. The public becomes so abusively brainwashed, that genuinely good people are absolutely convinced by their masters that people caught growing a cannabis plant should be kidnapped and put in a cage where they might be raped (and for eighty years they know this and can sleep peacefully at night because they cannot see the inherent evil). This abusive pattern repeats for generations. The people as a whole had no sliver of a chance at preventing this propagandizing indoctrination beast from infecting them, and to an enlightened outside eye this whole process would have been so predictable from the beginning since this played out pattern has been inflicted on societies throughout history. Undertheice, after looking at all this evidence, you decide that your energies are best spent exposing the people and not the system which has outgrown the people? Sorry, I'm not trying to be over dramatic. I only want clarification from you specifically because I think we are closer to overall agreement than not, based on your history of posts.

Yes, the brainwashed masses are enabling the system to continue, but it seems like you are spending more energy here blaming the victim rather than the abuser. The abuser needs to be blamed; the brainwashed need to be saved. It also seems unjust to blame the people who see the system for what it is, and decide not to engage it whenever possible... for many because they do not wish to give sanction to evil. Libertarians couldn't slow this beast a century ago when it was rolling down the hill at 20 miles per hour, and they certainly can't slow it down present day when it's barreling downhill at 200 miles per hour. The system will collapse because violence is not sustainable in the long term. Society needs to be awakened one person at a time, until like slavery, everyone sees it for what it is... institutionalized evil; and we don't need one drop of it in our social body.

Sure the current system of not following the Constitution and twisting its meaning sucks. I see what you are saying but if people continue to vote the same ones into office, who is to blame? The economy was the number one issue at election time. Most people were against the bailouts yet most voted for the two candidates who wanted the bailouts. I blame the voters for going back to the poisonous well.

ancap · May 19, 2010

Parker said:
Sure the current system of not following the Constitution and twisting its meaning sucks.

The constitution is like a sign hung on a tumor that says "don't grow". It never had a chance from the beginning.

Parker said:
I see what you are saying but if people continue to vote the same ones into office, who is to blame?

Society was infected by an immuno disorder called "the state" which crippled it's ability to detect and fight against further disease and sickness. Blaming society for its sickness is like blaming an AIDS patient for allowing the disease to advance. Where I think you might be confused is that you believe the state can be controlled (or that the virus can be contained). This is not possible. The state certainly wants you to believe that you are in control, otherwise you would realize your own enslavement and revolt or become lost in despair. I'm not saying that there are necessarily people in a smokey back room pulling these strings; I'm more saying that it is in the DNA of the state to manipulate this way. The fact that you are inclined to play into the system and that you believe you can affect significant change is a sign that you still believe some of the propaganda and are among the brainwashed society, though perhaps not as severely as others... please don't take that as a personal attack as it is not intended to be.

Parker said:
The economy was the number one issue at election time. Most people were against the bailouts yet most voted for the two candidates who wanted the bailouts. I blame the voters for going back to the poisonous well.

I guess I've learned not to be suprised when brainwashed people behave like brainwashed people. It's not just what they voted for that indicates they are brainwashed, it's the act of voting itself that indicates they are brainwashed. As a libertarian, this took a while for me to get. I actually voted in the last major election, but fortunately I've since woken up to the inherent evils built deeply within the foundations of the system.

This is a huge topic, and I'm not saying I've closed the case or proved anything here by any means.

Padawanbater2 · May 19, 2010

Mr.KushMan said:
I just read two socio-political theories that perfectly describe the american situation that I suggest most should read about, the first called 'Divide and Conquer' is a fairly old war tactic that was adapted for large non-violent populations, the other called the 'Spiral of Silence' describes a persons fear of speaking out when they believe they are a portion of the minority.

Also if you read the stats education follows a proportionate relationship with national debt. And debt follows proportionately along the money supply trend, so one could contend that the reason people are so hopelessly blind is the same reason they are in debt is the same reason they are so badly educated, and thusly have a self-invented high self-esteem, driving up domestic violence.

Peace

Shit dude, good job... I went to go look up "divide and conquer" and now I've been browsing wiki for like an hour and a half... Interesting stuff!

NoDrama · May 19, 2010

medicineman said:
I guess that would be fine for all you rich dicks, people with enough money to live on for the rest of their lives. Most regular people live paycheck to paycheck, not much cushion to drop out with. I guess you must be advocating a life of crime for those people, and then one is right back in the soup, only this time they are criminals and will eventually be sent to prison. I guess one could drop out and then rely on the prison system to support them, not exactly my cup of "TEA". You libertartians are ineffectual dreamers, always supposing the rest of society should live as you portend to be, self sufficient. The problem is, most people can't go a week without a paycheck, or they will be out in the cold. You always expect everyone to be as you think of yourselves, whether you are that way or really not, and just bullshitting yourself and everyone you come into contact with. Me thinks the libertarians are a shallow breed, a selfish bragging bunch of above average salaried individuals that think everyone should be as them, and those that are not are less than human. Just mellow out and try and understand that all humans are not as fortunate as you and could never just drop out, a real fantasy if ever there were.

Im not a fortunate one, I don't make a 6 figure income,nor have a great big house full of fancy furniture and a garage full of cars. I am blue collar and have been for 40 years, the thing I did differently than most was to live BELOW my means and put away 10% of my gross income as savings and investments. I have a small home, 1 vehicle, zero debt and some property in the country. I am RESPONSIBLE for myself and have lived my life that way. The most I ever made in one year is 42K. I save to outright buy everything I have, I do not take out loans except for the house, but I put down a good down payment. I pay my taxes, begrudgingly.

The economy may die, in which case everyone is going to drop out whether they want to or not.

Padawanbater2 · May 19, 2010

ancap said:
So people are born into a totally corrupt system that attracts the most manipulative narcissists in society like a magnet. Then the system that they were born into indoctrinates them through public schooling, and their own parents who were themselves indoctrinated, to believe that the system is benevolent and can solve their problems. It creates foreign and domestic enemies to further manipulate the public's fears to gain their allegiance. The system gives them jobs and loot, and tells them that they can vote for new manipulative narcissists every couple years to trick them into thinking that they are not slaves. The public becomes so abusively brainwashed, that genuinely good people are absolutely convinced by their masters that people caught growing a cannabis plant should be kidnapped and put in a cage where they might be raped (and for eighty years they know this and can sleep peacefully at night because they cannot see the inherent evil). This abusive pattern repeats for generations. The people as a whole had no sliver of a chance at preventing this propagandizing indoctrination beast from infecting them, and to an enlightened outside eye this whole process would have been so predictable from the beginning since this played out pattern has been inflicted on societies throughout history. Undertheice, after looking at all this evidence, you decide that your energies are best spent exposing the people and not the system which has outgrown the people? Sorry, I'm not trying to be over dramatic. I only want clarification from you specifically because I think we are closer to overall agreement than not, based on your history of posts.

Yes, the brainwashed masses are enabling the system to continue, but it seems like you are spending more energy here blaming the victim rather than the abuser. The abuser needs to be blamed; the brainwashed need to be saved. It also seems unjust to blame the people who see the system for what it is, and decide not to engage it whenever possible... for many because they do not wish to give sanction to evil. Libertarians couldn't slow this beast a century ago when it was rolling down the hill at 20 miles per hour, and they certainly can't slow it down present day when it's barreling downhill at 200 miles per hour. The system will collapse because violence is not sustainable in the long term. Society needs to be awakened one person at a time, until like slavery, everyone sees it for what it is... institutionalized evil; and we don't need one drop of it in our social body.

Great post +rep

kendothegreenwizard · May 19, 2010

Medicineman. Do you really think that everyone who disagrees with you is rich.?
Do you really think that Libertarians are shallow and rich and selfish braggards.
I know quite a few Liberterians and not a single one is rich. You really tend to throw about a lot of labels and make a many generalized, assumptive declarations. it seems that everyone not of your mindset is a crazy rightie, a teabagger, a braggard, shallow bred libertarian. You seem to have left out a few others that you have not labeled yet.
What are Independents?
Green partiers?
Truth and Liberty party?

ancap · May 19, 2010

Padawanbater2 said:
Great post +rep

Thanks Padawan.

undertheice · May 19, 2010

ancap said:
Yes, the brainwashed masses are enabling the system to continue, but it seems like you are spending more energy here blaming the victim rather than the abuser. The abuser needs to be blamed; the brainwashed need to be saved.

who are these victims? are they the folks who refuse to use their own minds to understand the world around them? if they are, i have no pity for them. i was raised on the same garbage they were and i see no need to find scapegoats for my failures. are they the poor, raised to accept dependence on the state as a rational excuse for their failure to rise above their circumstances? i have no pity for them either. groveling for the handouts that are nothing more than the stolen wealth of others is as much a crime as the theft itself. are they the idle rich, trapped by the limited expectations of others, or the indolent masses, willing to pass off their responsibilities for the illusion of security? just who the hell are these damn victims i keep hearing about?

once we don the mantle of victimhood, we cease to be worthwhile individuals. we become a part of the aimless herd. we cast about for someone to show us the way and sell our human potential for the sake of having someone to blame. the fools of the right, the idiots of the left and the uncaring multitudes in the middle, all are capable of being so much more than just another member of the victimized herd. we accept our place willingly. we are not forced to stop searching for answers on our own, we do so because it is easier than continuing the quest. we relinquish our personal responsibilities and follow the party line because that is the path of least resistance. we tell ourselves how advanced we are and how we should all be entitled to the benefits of living in this modern society, but we are just a step away from savagery and give in to that nature all too easily.

we see our primitive selves and, ashamed of our failings, we don't seek to enlighten ourselves. instead we design our societies to minimize the damage of our own cruelties. we place others above us and claim it is to curb our excesses, but it is only to give us someone else to blame. the sheep rush to the ballot box and cast their votes for their chosen champion, but they know these men and women are just as fallible as the rest of us and don't really expect the greatness they demand. we brainwash ourselves and then place the onus for that failure on the creature we ourselves have designed.

we could walk away from it at any time. we could renounce our membership in this grand lie and seek to improve the individual in each of us, but that is just too difficult a path. we could put aside our jealousies and accept that each of us is personally responsible only for our own deeds, but that requires accepting the pain. so we use our civilized society to excuse our own failure to expand ourselves and wallow in the justifications it provides.

Mr.KushMan · May 19, 2010

Great post! While I believe that each should look out for all, I do see how you mean the banking cartels are playing an intricate part of the corruption, and that we can't just elect new people because they are equally "fallible".

Do you ever notice that all the great presidents got assassinated? Kennedy's, Lincoln, and the scrupulous Congressman Charles Lindbergh........

Peace

ancap · May 19, 2010

undertheice said:
who are these victims? are they the folks who refuse to use their own minds to understand the world around them? if they are, i have no pity for them. i was raised on the same garbage they were and i see no need to find scapegoats for my failures. are they the poor, raised to accept dependence on the state as a rational excuse for their failure to rise above their circumstances? i have no pity for them either. groveling for the handouts that are nothing more than the stolen wealth of others is as much a crime as the theft itself. are they the idle rich, trapped by the limited expectations of others, or the indolent masses, willing to pass off their responsibilities for the illusion of security? just who the hell are these damn victims i keep hearing about?

I think you are conflating the idea of understanding the first cause of behavior and the idea of victimization as a post facto justification for sympathy or reparations. I am not interested in the latter, and perhaps it was a mistake to use the word victim when it carries such baggage. I am however, interested in understanding why people behave the way that they do so that we can reach necessary conclusions about our relationship to government and our relationship to each other. A husband that abuses his wife physically and emotionally should receive the majority of our moral outrage. The wife, who enables her husband's behavior by staying in the relationship and keeping the children around him, or believing his lies, should receive our sympathy and help though she has failed at several of her moral responsibilities as well. If a drug dealer intentionally gets a man addicted to drugs in order to profit from his addiction, we should direct our moral outrage to the drug dealer and help the addicted man by taking away his drugs and offering him treatment. If the state sees falling poverty figures and introduces addictive welfare legislation that sucks more people into poverty, we should cast our outrage at the state and help the poor by removing the system of welfare that has wrapped them in addiction. We should not castigate them for their addiction, because they are sick and it is practically pointless and unproductive.

My issue with your statements was that it seemed like you were ignoring the first causes that instigates specific societal behavior, or at least not giving it enough of your outrage proportionally. You seem to claim that we have designed the government, yet I do not think the reality is as black and white as your conclusion. In America, certainly a group of people established the government, yet support for such a system was far from unanimous, and the government that was established was far more tolerable than the government it became. This government grew into a behemouth not fully because of the people, but mostly in spite of the people. The people want access to medical marijuana now and look at the level of resistence from the system that exists despite overwhelming majorities of support. The only people (generally speaking) who care about farm subsidies are farmers, yet the subsidies continue because the amount of political action necessary to revoke them relative to the cost per individual taxpayer to pay the subsidy is staggering! It's a war of disproportionate incentives... and for society, it is an unwinable war. Multiply these disproportionate incentives by 10,000+ and you can clearly see how the government grows. Blaming society for it's growth in this light is very heavy handed.

If people can be bribed and addicted, then what we need is not a government to curb bribes and addictions; What we need is a society free of a violent monopolistic institution that thrives on bribes and addictions and is far more positively incentivized to create addicts relative to the small negative incentive per individual citizen to fight it. We don't need a small cancer; We need no cancer.

undertheice said:
we could walk away from it at any time.

Amen. That is what we can do... walk away and don't give it sanction. Do what it tells you to avoid being shot or jailed, but don't go around voting like you think you are making a difference.

undertheice · May 19, 2010

ancap said:
This government grew into a behemoth not fully because of the people, but mostly in spite of the people.

in a representative democracy such as ours, we find ourselves with the government we deserve. we may not overtly ask to be dominated, but we have done nothing to avoid it. we install people in positions of power based on their stances on individual issues, unwilling to admit that all of those issues are interrelated. one group demands a program for their needs, another group requires concessions for their support, still another group argues for restrictions on behavior that they deem objectionable. we seem not to care how these individual issues effect each other, as long as we are getting what we want for our pet projects. all of this power accumulated by government originated with the people themselves. who else are we to blame?

our government has long since ceased to see its constituents as individuals, but as power blocs. our representatives didn't need to come up with this outlook all on its own, the people themselves have been acting this way in an attempt to use the power of numbers to force others into their way of thinking. without caring how it effects the nation as a whole, we have allowed blind self-interest to form us into warring factions for political animals to play against each other. instead of practicing restraint and tolerance, we have handed government the power to enforce tolerance and restrict the actions we deem objectionable. instead of giving of ourselves to those causes we see as worthwhile or benefiting society, we give government the power to force donation to those causes. instead of caring for ourselves and each other, we give the denizens of government the power to force the population to care for itself as they see fit. each new cause that we cannot be bothered to see to ourselves gives us a new reason to hand more of our power to the state. we might be ignorant of the cumulative effect of our carelessness, but ignorance can hardly be used as an excuse

Mr.KushMan · May 19, 2010

Its divide and conquer! Just like I was saying, they get you to fight over meanial, trivial shit while the upper class runs away with all the money.

George Carlin used to say, "The upper class makes the most money and pays the least taxes, the middle class does all the work and pays the most taxes, the poor are there to scare the shit out of the middle class. Keep them going to those jobs!"

Peace

NoDrama · May 19, 2010

Mr.KushMan said:
Do you ever notice that all the great presidents got assassinated? Kennedy's, Lincoln, and the scrupulous Congressman Charles Lindbergh........

Peace

I don't think it was because they were "great" that got them killed, but because they tried to rid themselves of a central bank and either had the Government issue money directly or were too effective at making the lives of the Elite financiers difficult. One succeeded, Andy Jackson. They tried to kill him several times with poison and then sent a hit man who's pistol misfired Twice. Kennedy had Silver Certificates, Lincoln had Greenbacks, Jackson revoked the Central Banks Charter and paid the national debt off AND had a balanced budget. Lindbergh was very anti banker and made their lives difficult. The last truly Great president had to be Kennedy, I think he cared more for the country and the Common Man than any president since. He couldn't be controlled though, so they had to kill him.

Corruption.

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