Curious breeding questions

Hi Guys,

For the last year or so, I've been doing research (new grower) and have been learning a lot thanks to forums like this. I have a few questions I'd like to ask because I realize now that I would have to buy so many seeds to find the one that suits me. Sometimes you find something that might fit the bill, but it ends up being a discontinued strain from way back when etc etc. Anyway, I have a lot more research that I have to do before I decide whether to experiment to come up with my own strain .

Questions:

1. Can someone please give me an example of back crossing? I believe that this has more to do with stabilizing certain phenos?

2. I've recently come across the acronym IBL (Inbred-line?) How is this related to the plant itself? Is it genetically inferior to its original without the IBL? for example...The original Herijuana cultivator was busted and Sannies got them from the original breeder and they did an IBL to it..so as far as Herijuana and Herijuana IBL...what's the difference? Is the plant different....smoke different? Or is it the same thing, jus a different type of breeding?

3. When you finally get the one you want....How do you maintain it.. I hear clone cutting for years on end, but how do you seed it and keep the intensity that you want? For example, the original Endless Sky from Dr Greenthumb was amazing, but after the mother died....the new one (apparently) is not up to par. Can you not make seeds from it just in case?

4. To me, this type of breeding (back crossing and so on) seems like a manual way of cultivating. Is it possibly just to take a plant stem cell and inject the genetic material into the seed to get the EXACT plant you want or did I just ask a REALLY stupid question?


Sorry for the dumb questions folks, but I could not find answers anywhere else.

Thanks

From memory but here is my understanding.
1. Ok plant A is bred with plant B to produce plant C. C is then bred with Plant A.
2. They probably took a clone and self pollinated it using gibberellic acid.
3. They spray them with gibberellic acid to make it self pollinate and seed.

Everytime you go to seed there is a variance in genotypes(genetic variance) among the seeds. They will mostly have the same phenotype(Physical characteristics) as the parents but each seed will be slightly different. The plant does this to ensure that effects of changes in the environment are lessened. Like one seed will produce a little more branchy plant while one might produce one slightly less branchy. So for instance if the next season brings tall brush around the plant the less branchy one will be able to survive more easily.

Even with a well bred pheno, there will be about a 5% variation in plant characteristics from seed to seed off the same plant.

http://www.weedfarmer.com/cannabis/botany_guide.php
There is a lot of information on breeding in that link.

1) Yes, it works to recombine genetics in hopes of finding similar to the original "awesome" plant (be it f1, polyhybrid, ibl, s1, etc..)...it is a statistics game.

"awesome" plant = Plant A
Plant B (something with similar lineage, same seed stock or even a strain with some trait to add to Plant A)

-e.g.
Plant A x Plant B= Plant AB
Plant AB x Plant A=Plant AB bx1
Plant AB bx1 x Plant A= AB bx2...etc...continued until a point is found where quality is similar or surpasses the original

2) I don't know about the Herijuana strain. But, an IBL would be a worked and trait stabilized line that is true breeding.
I am assuming that the Herijuana is an F1 hybrid and that it's IBL is a worked line from the original F1 seed stock.

3) Clones can go on for a long time, but environmental factors that affect phenotype expression can play a part in the clones expressions after some time.
The best possible ways to keep a keeper in seed form would be to self it(make s1s) and maybe even search in the s2s(s1xs1) for keepers like the original.
You could even take two of your keepers, cross them and get a 2 in 1 "keeper" seeds.

4) LOL this is one reason why worked strains are very expensive.

back crossing is when you take a strain that has been bred with another strain, then breed it back with one of the parent strains.
so for example i have wwxbubblr gum hybrid, to backcross i would need to breed the hybrid with either WW or bubble gum.

IBL or pure breeding strain, is a strain that has been stabilized beyond a f3 generation. so to get an IBL of WWxbubble gum i would have to breed it with itself(strain wise) 3x to reach a point where i could call the strain and IBL.

how do you keep them? you breed lot of seeds of take clones.


no you cant just inject plant material into another plant or seed just doesn't work that way.

Could you guys also tell me why you rarely see pure bred lines? You always see at least some Sativa and or Indica mixed in? Why not Xs with just sativa and or Indica leaving it a pure Indica and or Sativa.

They are trying to get the best of both worlds. For instance. Sativas have very good root systems and will take up a lot of nutrients/water. Indicas have denser buds that finish faster.

steveat said:

Hi Guys,
1. Can someone please give me an example of back crossing? I believe that this has more to do with stabilizing certain phenos?

Click to expand...

Backcrossing is any time you cross an offspring to something earlier in the line.

For example you could cross a plant to its parent (or even grandparent) to try and bring out more traits from that original parent.

2. I've recently come across the acronym IBL (Inbred-line?) How is this related to the plant itself? Is it genetically inferior to its original without the IBL? for example...The original Herijuana cultivator was busted and Sannies got them from the original breeder and they did an IBL to it..so as far as Herijuana and Herijuana IBL...what's the difference? Is the plant different....smoke different? Or is it the same thing, jus a different type of breeding?

Click to expand...

Inbred line is the same as "true breeding line". It means if you cross two plants from this line, the offspring will be similar to the parents.

An example everyone can understand is pure-bred dogs. Cross two German Shephards, and you'll get another German Shephard. German Shephards are an inbred line.

Genetically speaking, inbred lines show homozygosity at many gene loci. In simple English, it means that the two copies of many of their genes are functionally the same. Whether or inbred lines are better than hybrids (which are non-stable) depends on exactly what you're looking for, but creating stable lines used to be the goal of most breeding programs.

3. When you finally get the one you want....How do you maintain it.. I hear clone cutting for years on end, but how do you seed it and keep the intensity that you want? For example, the original Endless Sky from Dr Greenthumb was amazing, but after the mother died....the new one (apparently) is not up to par. Can you not make seeds from it just in case?

Click to expand...

The answer to this is complicated, and beyond the scope of a quick post, but in a nutshell:

-To maintain one INDIVIDUAL plant you you like, you maintain a mother plant and clone it. You can pass around the clones as a sort of "insurance" in case your mother goes down. Most of the "clone only" lines represent this sort of thing.

-*IF* the line is true breeding you can create se-eds and keep them and they should be like the parents If its not true breeding you can try to create se-eds, but they may not be exactly like the parent(s).

-Tissue culture is a way to preserve specific genetics indefinitely, but this technique is (in my opinion) not practical for home use by small growers and way beyond the scope of this post.

4. To me, this type of breeding (back crossing and so on) seems like a manual way of cultivating. Is it possibly just to take a plant stem cell and inject the genetic material into the seed to get the EXACT plant you want or did I just ask a REALLY stupid question?

Click to expand...

Its not a stupid question.
I'm not sure if the technology to do what you describe exists with plants right now. But even if it did, again, this is not something that's going to practical for anyone but a research scientist or other well-funded entity.
You're not going to be doing nuclear transplant/injection in your garage at home with 2013 technology.

steveat said:

Could you guys also tell me why you rarely see pure bred lines? You always see at least some Sativa and or Indica mixed in? Why not Xs with just sativa and or Indica leaving it a pure Indica and or Sativa.

Click to expand...

Stop.

First of all, indica-sativa hybrids CAN be "true breeding", if they were bred that way. An example of a plant like that would be the original AK-47 which is stable, but contains genes from both indica and sativa plants.

The reason why people make hybrids is to get specific features from different lines combined into one plant.

For example, you might want the taste of a sativa plant, but the short grow time and height of an indica.

Pure sativa plants are difficult to grow indoors for a number of reasons I won't get into, but many think they have superior flavor and high quality. Indicas are easier to grow indoors, but pure ones tend to be "hashy" and give a stony effect that some people don't like.

As to "rarely" seeing pure bred lines, there are plenty of them out there, they just aren't necessarily what most growers want. Hybridized plants specifically bred for the purpose work best for growing indoors, and with most people growing indoors, these are the most popular.

polyarcturus said:

IBL or pure breeding strain, is a strain that has been stabilized beyond a f3 generation. so to get an IBL of WWxbubble gum i would have to breed it with itself(strain wise) 3x to reach a point where i could call the strain and IBL.

Click to expand...

I think its a little more complicated than that.

The definition of a "true breeding" (or "inbred") line is one in which the offspring of any two members of the line will show the same characteristics as the parents. They don't have to be exactly the same but they should be highly similar and all characteristics of interest should be the same.

The conventional wisdom is that it takes fully 6-7 generations of selective breeding before a line's genetics can be truly stabilized to the point where it could be called "inbred", and a real purist might take 9 generations. Yes, you can call your line "inbred" after only 3-4 generations of crosses, but realistically, if you've truly started from two different inbred lines as parents you're probably not going to all your offspring to be similar/identical with that few generations of selection.

Some of this has to do with how the selections are done (which is at least in part dumb luck), and what the original parents are. For example, if the original parents are themselves related, it may not take fully 7 generations to stabilize the offspring, etc.

The advantages of an inbred line are exactly what you think they are. Every ceed in a pack will yield a similar plant with similar appearance, growth characteristics, flowering times, potency, flavor, etc, and if you're familiar with the line, you'll know exactly what to expect.

Main disadvantage is that it actually takes quite a bit of work to create an inbred line (eg 6-7 generations of selective breeding from ceed is effectively a 2 year project), partly explaining why so few breeders are trying to do this anymore. Part of it is just that the market doesnt' seem to be "demanding" this sort of work, but again, we're getting into areas beyond the scope of this post.

Jogro said:

I think its a little more complicated than that.

The definition of a "true breeding" (or "inbred") line is one in which the offspring of any two members of the line will show the same characteristics as the parents. They don't have to be exactly the same but they should be highly similar and all characteristics of interest should be the same.

The conventional wisdom is that it takes fully 6-7 generations of selective breeding before a line's genetics can be truly stabilized to the point where it could be called "inbred", and a real purist might take 9 generations. Yes, you can call your line "inbred" after only 3-4 generations of crosses, but realistically, if you've truly started from two different inbred lines as parents you're probably not going to all your offspring to be similar/identical with that few generations of selection.

Some of this has to do with how the selections are done (which is at least in part dumb luck), and what the original parents are. For example, if the original parents are themselves related, it may not take fully 7 generations to stabilize the offspring, etc.

The advantages of an inbred line are exactly what you think they are. Every ceed in a pack will yield a similar plant with similar appearance, growth characteristics, flowering times, potency, flavor, etc, and if you're familiar with the line, you'll know exactly what to expect.

Main disadvantage is that it actually takes quite a bit of work to create an inbred line (eg 6-7 generations of selective breeding from ceed is effectively a 2 year project), partly explaining why so few breeders are trying to do this anymore. Part of it is just that the market doesnt' seem to be "demanding" this sort of work, but again, we're getting into areas beyond the scope of this post.

Click to expand...

just didnt want to get to deep with it jogro, sometimes too much info is overwhelming. but a good post, and insight to the actual amt. of work it takes, i was just keeping it simple.

polyarcturus said:

just didnt want to get to deep with it jogro, sometimes too much info is overwhelming. but a good post, and insight to the actual amt. of work it takes, i was just keeping it simple.

Click to expand...

Yeah, no sweat.

I just wanted to expand on that bit about an F3.

If you really could create inbred lines in three generations, than creating any new strain would only take a year.

But as you know, lots of "breeders" release "strains" that are basically just F3s (or even in some cases less), and this is why buyers of said genetics may have to go through a number of plants to find the one "keeper" plant.

With true inbred lines of quality, you should expect that any plant from a pack will be a "keeper".