defoliation when in flower

chuck estevez · Jan 16, 2016

DrGhard said:
there are a couple of argument in favor of defoliating during flowering. with many caveats hoewever, and should be done cautiosly.

first of all I would like to say that the argument "leaves are the power cells of plants" etc etc etc is not 100% correct. in indoor conditions, if leaves are not reached by optimal light irradiation they actually take up more sugars than they produce. this means that the more illuminated leaves have to cater for the maintenance of the worst illuminated ones (and thus focus less on growth or bud formation). this said, defoliation in early stages of flowering should be done only in extreme cases of overcrowdness, and mostly with indica strains (they respond better to defoliation and have bigger leaves which cover up each other much more). excess defoliation at the wrong time can severly reduce your plant growth and final yield.
again, this should be done only in indoor growth, when growth light doesnt have an optimal penetration. outdoor growths have no such issue and dont need defoliation.

the second one (and more imprtant) is that stress signals or damage signals trigger a response in plant. especially the damage signals (which mimicks the damage from herbivores) from removing few leaves trigger an increased production of defence compounds. most defence compounds produced in responce to damage are secondary metabolites. and guess to which category THC and CBDs belong?
same goes to a certain extent when applying stress (like flushing the nutrients away for a week).
both techniques (defoliation and flushing) have the effect of increasing the production of THC and friends in the trichomes. this is hard to prove "at home" however because you cannot measure the THC/CBDs content by yourself (you can get an indication when you smoke it though hehe).

is true on the other hand that these techniques have a definite impact of growth. as such you should never defoliate or flush early in the flowering cycle, but rather towards the end of it, when buds are pretty much formed. and never exxagerate with both.
at a certain point in flowering however plants are not really investing energy into growth anymore, meaning that removing leaves will have little to no impact on bud growth, but will have a positive impact on potency.

in the end you dont really care of making 100g of less potent weed when you make maybe 95g of much more potent one through defoliation or fluching

cheers

Dr Ghard

Cannadude,pik booster, welcome back. Thought you were going to do some experimenting and show us all some stuff. Guess you decided to just tuck tail then comeback as someone else,AGAIN. now please rant on how I am wrong..........

ISK · Jan 16, 2016

chuck estevez said:
Cannadude,pik booster, welcome back. Thought you were going to do some experimenting and show us all some stuff. Guess you decided to just tuck tail then comeback as some else,AGAIN. now please rant on how I am wrong..........

good call chuck....it will be the rant that will prove you right or not

Flowki · Jan 16, 2016

Uncle Ben said:
Even though photos are not the be-all, some constructive criticism if I may. Unless you have about 80% brown pistils they don't look ready to me. Also, there are quite a few yellowish and unproductive leaves. Although typical of most cannabis growers, it is not the way to go.

Happy harvest!

UB

http://www.growweedeasy.com/marijuana-defoliation-tutorial

Can you respond to this directly in regard to defoliation being bad. He claims to be an experienced grower and has completely contradicted your statement. the pics from both of you speak for themselves but it's interesting to know why your opinion differs so much. They are actually important contradictions that will shape how I go about things.

Have you done a side by side of both styles or can you link my to old posts you may have made that counter his claims?. I'm asking this with all ego aside.

Pics do actually mean something, but it seems only when you want them to.

chuck estevez · Jan 16, 2016

Flowki said:
http://www.growweedeasy.com/marijuana-defoliation-tutorial

Can you respond to this directly in regard to defoliation being bad. He claims to be an experienced grower and has completely contradicted your statement. the pics from both of you speak for themselves but it's interesting to know why your opinion differs so much. They are actually important contradictions that will shape how I go about things.

Have you done a side by side of both styles or can you link my to old posts you may have made that counter his claims?. I'm asking this with all ego aside.

what was your screen name at the time when you were butthurt by UB?

Flowki · Jan 16, 2016

chuck estevez said:
what was your screen name at the time when you were butthurt by UB?

(sry I meant this to uncle ben)

I don't know who you think I am, I don't have a vendetta against you. You seem very experienced and while yes.. you come off as a complete asshole I am still very interested in your knowledge. We can talk through inbox or pm if that is possible, I have no care for what ever personal wars go on here. I just want to understand why two experienced growers are so opposed. Somebody or neither are wrong and I need to know.

chuck estevez · Jan 16, 2016

Flowki said:
(sry I meant this to uncle ben)

I don't know who you think I am, I don't have a vendetta against you. You seem very experienced and while yes.. you come off as a complete asshole I am still very interested in your knowledge. We can talk through inbox or pm if that is possible, I have no care for what ever personal wars go on here. I just want to understand why two experienced growers are so opposed. Somebody or neither are wrong and I need to know.

I dont know who you are, thats why i asked what your screen name was at the time the butthurt took place. i might seem like an asshole because i am,but i also have glasses that see thru bullshit,thats why you think i am an asshole. cause i called you out on your bs.

Sativied · Jan 16, 2016

Flowki said:
Can you respond to this directly in regard to defoliation being bad. He claims to be an experienced grower and has completely contradicted your statement. the pics from both of you speak for themselves but it's interesting to know why your opinion differs so much. They are actually important contradictions that will shape how I go about things.

No. Pics mean shit by themselves. It's the text that makes you misinterpret the photos as an experiment, which it is not. Contradicting is easy, back it up with facts is something else...

Growweedeasy is a collection of popular forum nonsense and that entire article you linked to is just too dumb shit to refute like much of what the defoliators claim, and like many other 'techniques" is a result of prohibition putting cannabis growing in the hands of many uneducated idiots who failed at everything in life and resort to growing cannabis for a living. Money growers who fool themselves into thinking they will grow more money if they remove leaves... I say let them... Weeds out the idiots from the pro farmers who will take over the industry sooner or later.

unwine99 · Jan 16, 2016

Sativied said:
Weeds out the idiots from the pro farmers who will take over the industry sooner or later.

Can't wait either...I respect what 'cannafolk' have done for cannabis legalization and all but I'm so over the empty-headed high school dropouts with tie dyed weed leaf t-shirts representing the industry. True business professionals and educated cannabis cultivators studying, perfecting, and putting forth a product, minus all the charlatanism and cliche cannabis culture that plagues the market today sounds like a tall glass of ice water on a hot summers' day to me.

I would love to see cannabis go the way of artisan wine and craft beer -- something everyone can partake and enjoy without the idiot loser stigmatization.

jacksthc · Jan 16, 2016

Uncle Ben said:
Even though photos are not the be-all, some constructive criticism if I may. Unless you have about 80% brown pistils they don't look ready to me. Also, there are quite a few yellowish and unproductive leaves. Although typical of most cannabis growers, it is not the way to go.

Happy harvest!

UB

This crop was from a couple of years back but thanks for the advice

I live in the UK and basically if i get caught with low amount of plants in a basic setup, like this link
could walk away without any problems, may just get a warning

a larger more expensive setup with more plants would be consisted as a commercial setup and I could do 5 years.

That's why i defoliation my plants to keep them small as i can and fill them with as much bud in a basic room with low air flow and control over temps/humidity.

jacksthc · Jan 16, 2016

Sativied said:
No. Pics mean shit by themselves. It's the text that makes you misinterpret the photos as an experiment, which it is not. Contradicting is easy, back it up with facts is something else...

Growweedeasy is a collection of popular forum nonsense and that entire article you linked to is just too dumb shit to refute like much of what the defoliators claim, and like many other 'techniques" is a result of prohibition putting cannabis growing in the hands of many uneducated idiots who failed at everything in life and resort to growing cannabis for a living. Money growers who fool themselves into thinking they will grow more money if they remove leaves... I say let them... Weeds out the idiots from the pro farmers who will take over the industry sooner or later.

could you consider defoliation will help the small Percy growers after a few crops ?
removing a few fan leaves ( less than 20% on bushy plants)

1. will reduce humidity ( reduce the chance of bud rot)
2. increase airflow
3. reduces the stretch in early flower
4. can help to keep the canopy level in late flower

BobCajun · Jan 16, 2016

Uncle Ben said:
So you think the leaf's production of carbos is entirely localized and contained to that area only, eh?

I don't know about the carbs. I mean the florigen that causes flowering. Ed Rosenthal said if you put a dark covering over one branch for long nights then only that branch flowers.

Sativied · Jan 16, 2016

jacksthc said:
could you consider defoliation will help the small Percy growers after a few crops ?
removing a few fan leaves ( less than 20% on bushy plants)

1. will reduce humidity ( reduce the chance of bud rot)
2. increase airflow
3. reduces the stretch in early flower
4. can help to keep the canopy level in late flower

Your question assumes defoliating is a technique or method that could in some way apply to cannabis which is where you get lost in nonsense already. Once upon a time I had very similar arguments for defoliating (yeah, I discussed it from all sides and angles)...

1. I actually remove some leaves to reduce the risk of bud rot. Let me rephrase that: I use a crappy old exhaust sized for my previous closet with a clogged carbon filter I should replace, but instead remove a few large fans to reduce transpiration and thus humidity. It does not improve my yields, but potentionally prevents a bigger loss. Did I mention I do that in week 8-9 when they start to deteriorate and it actually matters...

Removing leaves early in flowering or even half way, whenever you clowns do it, for the sake of preventing budrot proves my point... Defoliators should work in a factory boxing consumer products or something else that does not require making decisions (nothing wrong with honest labor!) and stay far away from producing cannabis unless it's to trim... The plant and its consumers deserve better.

Removing leaves, any form of pruning, increases the susceptibility to botrytis, PM and other diseases and viruses. If you get budrot before the last week or two you're really fucking it up and add to reasons to leave it to others, or at least stfu infecting others with idiocracy.

2. Get a better exhaust and a couple of proper fans. The airflow, humidy and budrot arguments have been refuted many times, for years, yet you insist on remaining ignorant. Airflow and humidity problems are grower errors, not plant errors. You'd be fired on the spot in any professional environment for talking such nonsense. Let's remove tires from cars so there are less traffic jams...

3. Proper plant spacing and avoiding crappy pollenchucked hybrids, and switching to 12/12 soon enough instead of growing trees as if they are outdoor, temp management, proper nutrient regime, proper lighting, and other valid sensible ways reduce stretch. Suggesting removing leaves reduces stretch is just.... well, if you could understand why it is inherently retarded to suggest you would no longer have to waste time and energy even thinking the word defoliation.

4. Ridiculous nonsense that made it to the list because you are desperate to be able to fool yourself you're not wrong. (Same reason point 1 and 2 aren't lumled together). Which is ironic, because gaining knowledge usually requires being wrong more than once. What you and other defoliators lack isn't intelligence but selfrespect. You are trying to win a neverending debate that should not be a debate at all. You should be searching for the truth, not grasp for bullshit to bullshit yourself.

1-4:
Your argument is essentially.that cannabis has too many leaves and to get max yields indoor some need to be removed. Not removing leaves will make it too humid, cause rot, stretch, grow too much fluff/popcorn, and all the other nonsense... Yet, at the same time, you do not grow more and better than thousands of growers who do not have to remove leaves to prevent such problems. And then you blame the plant. Just gtfo and stfu with the endless stupid defoliation nonsense. The way you defoliators discuss with your dumb arguments, endless fallacies, the cherry picking ("it works for species X too"', instead of posting all the research that for many species has shown the downsides) and general disregard for reason, logic, facts, botany and common sense is insulting not just to the plant but the human species.

Nobody ever has and ever will prove defoliation is some gardening method that should be applies to cannabis, yet daily people prove all the supposed reasons to do so are simply invalid, factually retarded.

Define retard: to slow down the development or progress of (something)

Imagine if everyone was as dumb as defoliators (see idiocracy for examples)... we'd still be in the Stone Age and you would not even have a means to communicate your nonsense.

DrGhard · Jan 16, 2016

chuck estevez said:
Cannadude,pik booster, welcome back. Thought you were going to do some experimenting and show us all some stuff. Guess you decided to just tuck tail then comeback as someone else,AGAIN. now please rant on how I am wrong..........

sorry i think you confuse me for someone else

DrGhard · Jan 16, 2016

Sativied said:
Your question assumes defoliating is a technique or method that could in some way apply to cannabis which is where you get lost in nonsense already. Once upon a time I had very similar arguments for defoliating (yeah, I discussed it from all sides and angles)...

Removing leaves, any form of pruning, increases the susceptibility to botrytis, PM and other diseases and viruses. If you get budrot before the last week or two you're really fucking it up and add to reasons to leave it to others, or at least stfu infecting others with idiocracy.

this is not 100% true. the damage signal from removing a leaf actually primes plants to defend themselves agains necrotrophic pathogens (or hemi-necrotrophic like botrythis). this means plants become actually a tad more resistant to certain pathogens.
the only condition which really maked botrythis take over your plant is humidity (and of bringing some spores over to your garden ofc).

i work for a living with botrythis and many other plant pathogens, both biotrophs and necrotrophs, and despite minimal precautions taken when inoculating them at work (meaning that i sometimes accidentally spray them on myself etc.) i never had any contamination in my cannabis plants. and i do defoliate at specific stages of the cycle.

as i said again the main factor which contributes to the spread of those pathogens is humidity levels at the leaf surface.

chuck estevez · Jan 16, 2016

DrGhard said:
sorry i think you confuse me for someone else

LOL

Flowki · Jan 16, 2016

Sativied said:
chill

So is the link I provided with defoliated plants that seemed to be yielding just as well as those not defoliated a lie?. On a side and unbiased note I also find your hate for defoliation ironic given how topping (being much the same thing relatively speaking) is considered to increase yields. It sounds double standards to say topping some 60% of an entire plant as with Ub style is fine yet removing leaves is bad, all be it in veg for either case.

I also seek the truth but so far I've seen pics from both sides and then A LOT of hot air. Please somebody on this seemingly useless egotistical driven forum link some side by side or factual evidence that completely sinks one argument or the other. No more bs side tracking ''I'm right coz said so''. Credible links. You said yourself you learned this, show me what you read so I can learn the same.

I want you to be right, it's less work.

Sativied · Jan 16, 2016

DrGhard said:
this is not 100% true. the damage signal from removing a leaf actually primes plants to defend themselves agains necrotrophic pathogens (or hemi-necrotrophic like botrythis). this means plants become actually a tad more resistant to certain pathogens.
the only condition which really maked botrythis take over your plant is humidity (and of bringing some spores over to your garden ofc).

Another idiot who should just stfu pretending to know anything about plants and botrytis throwing around terms to project the illusion of knowledge should and start over from elememtary school or get a job that doesn't require having more than half a brain.

Just a quick example:
"often starts at a point of damage or on any decaying tissue. Fallen flower petals resting on leaves, and pruning wounds on stems are examples of infection points."

Every farmer, any kid fresh from an agricultural education knows this (damaged cells are much more like to become infection points for funghi than healthy cells). One of the reasons this is important is that harvesting in stages can be unwise. Doesn't matter for your grow, but a pro with a greenhouse can't afford to be an idiot. Well, for the next few years there will be pros with huge grows who do stupid forum nonsense to their plants, but they won't survive. Just like their unhealthy plants they end prematurely.

Thus, stfu posting stupid shit that is not only not "100% true" but just some dumb intuition based nonsense that would in a more professional environment expose you for someone who should stfu, could potentially be a risk to the succes of the company, cost a lot of money, and should instead flush the toilets or bring coffee to the pros.

DrGhard · Jan 16, 2016

Sativied said:
Another idiot who should just stfu pretending to know anything about plants and botrytis throwing around terms to project the illusion of knowledge should and start over from elememtary school or get a job that doesn't require having more than half a brain.

Just a quick example:
"often starts at a point of damage or on any decaying tissue. Fallen flower petals resting on leaves, and pruning wounds on stems are examples of infection points."

Every farmer, any kid fresh from an agricultural education knows this (damaged cells are much more like to become infection points for funghi than healthy cells). One of the reasons this is important is that harvesting in stages can be unwise. Doesn't matter for your grow, but a pro with a greenhouse can't afford to be an idiot. Well, for the next few years there will be pros with huge grows who do stupid forum nonsense to their plants, but they won't survive. Just like their unhealthy plants they end prematurely.

Thus, stfu posting stupid shit that is not only not "100% true" but just some dumb intuition based nonsense that would in a more professional environment expose you for someone who should stfu, could potentially be a risk to the succes of the company, cost a lot of money, and should instead flush the toilets or bring coffee to the pros.

im sorry, but where you quote that from? wikipedia? some books?

because as i mentioned before i have quite the experience with plant pathogens, including a doctoral degree and few pubblication in peer reviewed journals (which i cannot link for a reason of anonimity, as in my country is not exactly legal growing weed)

"often starts at a point of damage or on any decaying tissue"

this can be true indeed, but i dont think anyone would remove leaves and then leave them to rot next to the growing plant. even if you are growing in organic soil (which is full of decomposing matter btw, but wont trigger any bothrytis infection). even so the infection won't spread to your plants if the infected cut leaves are removed before sporulation

"pruning wounds on stems are examples of infection points"

this is a classical example of generalistic information (which makes me question where you get your informations). botrythis does not infect through wounds, because as i mentioned before a wounded plant becomes actually more resistant to certain types of pathogens. wounded plants produce Jasmonate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasmonate), which primes plant to be more resistant against necrotrophic pathogens (ie pathogens which feed on dead plant matter and thus kill their host). you can read a bit about here if you can open it, specifically against bothrytis (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0176161710004116), but there is plenty of literature about this subject.

a pathogen which comes through entry wounds instead are for instance the Pseudomonas bacteria. those bacteria can actually infect through wounds because they thrive in plants which activate their JA defences. this because pseudomonas spp are non-necrotrophic bacteria, and the Jasmonate-dependant defence pathways of the plant have no effect on them.

last point: ofc there is difference between a home growth and a greenhouse, but if a greenhouse is set up properly it should be the same as a house growth. as soon as leaves surface humidity is under control you won't suffer any major infection from any leaf pathogen (unless you bring your plants in contact with some heavily-infected material).

Sativied · Jan 16, 2016

Flowki said:
So is the link I provided with defoliated plants that seemed to be yielding just as well as those not defoliated a lie?.

A lie is a very simplistic choice of words in this case, but to keep it simple for you, yes, growweedeasy is a lie and the defoliation article is a good example. It is targetted to retards, and the popular opinion amongst retards is that "defoliation works". Growweedeasy cares about page views and click through rates, they are not in the business of helping you or others grow weed. In short, they wouldn't get that many visitors if they had an article explaining the idiocracy of defoliation. That would be like starting a christian site and deny jesus.

Flowki said:
On a side and unbiased note I also find your hate for defoliation ironic given how topping (being much the same thing relatively speaking) is considered to increase yields. It sounds double standards to say topping some 60% of an entire plant as with Ub style is fine yet removing leaves is bad, all be it in veg for either case.

I don't have emotions towards defoliation.

"Defoliation when in flower", the topic tile, barely English but regardless of when you do it, defoliating and topping are completely different. If that really is too hard to understand you might as well skip the rest...

Flowki said:
I also seek the truth but so far I've seen pics from both sides and then A LOT of hot air. Please somebody on this seemingly useless egotistical driven forum link some side by side or factual evidence that completely sinks one argument or the other. No more bs side tracking ''I'm right coz said so''. Credible links. You said yourself you learned this, show me what you read so I can learn the same.

I want you to be right, it's less work.

You seek the truth? If that is really true, I feel sorry for you cause you will never find it, as you are going about it all wrong. To suggest I have a double standard because I top my plants may have sounded clever in your head but is just creating another obstacle for yourself in your path to the truth. Especially if you're looking for less work... and avoid getting in a situation where you think leaves have to be removed... topping is the way to go, unless you run a sog (many single cola plants, which you can mimick with less plants combined with topping... ).

Factual evidence and credible links proving there is no purple dragon in your garage? Ever heard of shifting the burden of proof? Nobody who can provide factual info and is credible will ever even touch the subject because it's just too idiotic.

Got a link for you nonetheless:
The Trivium is a systematic method of critical thinking used to derive factual certainty from information perceived with the traditional five senses: sight, sound, taste, touch, and smell. In the medieval university, the trivium was the lower division of the seven liberal arts, and comprised grammar, logic, and rhetoric (input, process, and output).

The lower division... in medieval times... and you brainless 21st century fuck ups are arguing defoliation... Go back to school and go do something useful. Please.

DrGhard · Jan 16, 2016

Sativied said:
Growweedeasy cares about page views and click through rates, t

and they try to sell you their books as well.

defoliation when in flower

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