Drill baby drill

Feel free to quote any part of anything that I have written that blames oil companies for manipulating the market and setting gas prices....

read the very first post of mine and focus on the VERY first sentence....

If you actually read what i wrote, you would see that I'm countering the claim that opening up more wells will reduce the price.... big difference from your interpretation of my writing...

The Ruiner said:

I was under the impression from your post (and its focus on domestic companies) that they were the hands behind the oil trend. I didnt get the impression that you understood the implications of the global oil markets in relation to state-run companies. You mentioned other countries increasing consumption, but followed with a viewpoint that (seemingly) put domestic companies here in a position of global responsibility.

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You just have a block against anything I say anyway, what's the point? Can you just not admit that your post in question is about domestic companies selling refined products overseas that was in relation to a question regarding our current oil "condition?"

Omnipotent, wise Serapis...

You don't have to be a smart ass.... you make the assertion that I blame oil companies for setting gas prices, yet I've said nothing of the sort. I even invited you to quote ANTYTHING I've written to support your claim. so your way of backing out of it is to be sarcastic? Admit you were wrong and move on... I get tired of your BS in these forums and you always cut and run when you challenge me...

shut up, or put up....

The Ruiner said:

You just have a block against anything I say anyway, what's the point? Can you just not admit that your post in question is about domestic companies selling refined products overseas that was in relation to a question regarding our current oil "condition?"

Omnipotent, wise Serapis...

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Right right right, always right, wise invented god. Never budge, never give ground. how about your entire post as for citation? Why repost a post? Why can't you just say "oh, I can see now when I re-read my post how it could give that impression, but that is unintended" It has to be "you are wrong, and I am right"

When it comes you and I exchanging ideas, only one side gets considered - yours. And its tiresome. You seem to be so caught up in your own righteousness that my words are meaningless if they ever contradict or clash with yours (and you only have to percieve a clash to start the "right and wrong" game). You never, not once, have ever given consideration as to how your words are interpreted by others, at least by me.

Of course you will always "win," it's fucking impossible to lose in your own head.

Serapis said:

This article is saying exactly what I was saying earlier about refineries. I'm glad you looked that up and did the research.

As you can see, more wells simply put our shores and fisheries and related industries at risk of oil drilling disasters, merely so the oil companies have more to sell abroad. The tea baggers have not thought this out, and nor will they.... Watch for energy industries to spend heavily as corporation 527's in the 2012 election campaign. there will be plenty of smears and fear mongering against obama and plenty of support for GOP contenders that tend to favor industry and business over constituents.

And thanks to the USSC ruling that corporations are individuals, we won't know who is sponsoring those commercials.... rest assured, big oil will spend hundreds of millions to get a GOP puppet in office.

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And in so doing, retard our ability to solidify alternatives, and put us behind China and India as innovators of new energy technology. All the while they will be convincing people that we have 40 years worth of plentiful oil right here benieth our feet if only that damn Government and their enviro manipulators would only let us drill where we want. (and as you say, sell where we want as well) The latest scam to come from their propaganda machine is that we do need alternatives but we had better drill everywhere we can NOW so we will have enough to aid and assist in those alternatives when they "come along".

Noone who tells me that the price is not being manipulated and the free market is the answer to high gas prices has managed to explain why companies that are making record profits aren't operating full out. Except that economics says something a little different. "why should I bust my butt to produce more when producing less will make me more money now, and leave me with more product later" Drill here Drill now.

The problem is, we never exchange ideas, because you are always picking on mine and never provide any evidence or sources to back up points. You made a claim that I don't know what i'm talking about....

Serapis, you must not be privy to the notion that about 90% of the world's oil is in the hands of state-controlled companies (meaning, companies owned and operated by the governments of the producing countries). Thus, the prices that we see here are a reflection of the world oil market, not small-change companies like exxon...I am not saying that they dont use manipulations to profit, but they simply are not responsible for the prices of gasoline, period.

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I asked you to point out where I said that, yet you can't, because I did not....

So again, I have to say, where did i say that? Feel free to quote the part of the post that gave you that impression. If you can't, then guess what? You were wrong, as I've stated from the beginning.

And you missed entirely the original response to your post.... READ IT!.... I agreed with you on your other points.... so how is that not sharing ideas?

perhaps you are the one with the "ME" complex?

The Ruiner said:

Right right right, always right, wise invented god. Never budge, never give ground. how about your entire post as for citation? Why repost a post? Why can't you just say "oh, I can see now when I re-read my post how it could give that impression, but that is unintended" It has to be "you are wrong, and I am right"

When it comes you and I exchanging ideas, only one side gets considered - yours. And its tiresome. You seem to be so caught up in your own righteousness that my words are meaningless if they ever contradict or clash with yours (and you only have to percieve a clash to start the "right and wrong" game). You never, not once, have ever given consideration as to how your words are interpreted by others, at least by me.

Of course you will always "win," it's fucking impossible to lose in your own head.

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canndo said:

And in so doing, retard our ability to solidify alternatives, and put us behind China and India as innovators of new energy technology. All the while they will be convincing people that we have 40 years worth of plentiful oil right here benieth our feet if only that damn Government and their enviro manipulators would only let us drill where we want. (and as you say, sell where we want as well) The latest scam to come from their propaganda machine is that we do need alternatives but we had better drill everywhere we can NOW so we will have enough to aid and assist in those alternatives when they "come along".

Noone who tells me that the price is not being manipulated and the free market is the answer to high gas prices has managed to explain why companies that are making record profits aren't operating full out. Except that economics says something a little different. "why should I bust my butt to produce more when producing less will make me more money now, and leave me with more product later" Drill here Drill now.

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So if we expect the GOP to align with oil industry (which has vested interest in profits and maintaining high prices), and we have the current administration in-line with GE/GM (who have a vested interest in low energy costs), which would be better for the American people? This shouldn't be too hard to see...

Serapis said:

The problem is, we never exchange ideas, because you are always picking on mine and never provide any evidence or sources to back up points. You made a claim that I don't know what i'm talking about....

I asked you to point out where I said that, yet you can't, because I did not....

So again, I have to say, where did i say that? Feel free to quote the part of the post that gave you that impression. If you can't, then guess what? You were wrong, as I've stated from the beginning.

And you missed entirely the original response to your post.... READ IT!.... I agreed with you on your other points.... so how is that not sharing ideas?

perhaps you are the one with the "ME" complex?

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I never said "you dont know" or claimed anything of the sort. I was simply adding a dynamic to the conversation, plain and simple. I really didnt know if you knew (how the hell could I?) that an overwhelming percentage of oil is produced and priced by state-run companies (which is essentially the entire world market, which is our market). There was never a question of right or wrong man, your brought that BS into the picture. I was not disagreeing with your words, at all. Like I said, I was adding another dynamic, pure and simple. I am not going to hound you for proof of MY words, I know what I said and I never brought the "right vs. wrong" equation into this, and I refuse to do so. If you cannot see that my original comment was only in the nature of expanding the conversation, I dont know what to tell you. But this he said/he said stuff is just pointless.

Serapis said:

I forgot to add the little known practice of shutting down refineries in peak season claiming maintenance is needed.... why would you shut down a refinery right when you need to be producing as much gas as possible? To create an artificial drop in supply and increase the prices. Every time i see news about a refinery fire or a closing, I am suspicious, but that is just my nature to be. I don't trust many large corporations that can easily manipulate supply....

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It's alway a corporate/Capitalist conspiracy with you folks. Why isn't OPEC, the world largest cartel ever blamed for gauging us? There is never anything nefarious going on and with all the governmental panels and investigation nothing has ever been found. Gas is expensive because we have failed to be Capitalist and we imbrace the Government as the solution and regulator of everthing that is good.

Serapis said:

You've missed a lot.... the price of fuel is dictated by supply and demand.... We now have countries with growing energy needs that are willing to pay, like China, Vietnam, Taiwan, S. Korea, etc, whose energy needs are rising as incomes increase. Do you realize how much of Exxon Mobil's profits were derived from selling US CRUDE to the over seas market? 73%!! How will opening up additional drilling spots lower our prices? All they are going to do is sell it abroad.

the profit on gas is miniscule compared to selling the oil outright, or using it for other purposes. A new refinery is a huge expense that will not offer a return on investment for more than 20 years. try to convince your stockholders of that investment. The US government could build a couple of refineries, and maybe they should in the name of national security, but then we would be subsidizing fuel in a capitalistic economy; surely something the tea baggers would be up in arms against.

It is because of the free capitalistic environment that we ARE currently in that gas prices fluctuate the way that they do.... ever hear of gasoline futures that are traded on the Chicago Mercantile exchange? They purchase gasoline in blocks, promised to be delivered by a specific future date, to the highest bidder... many speculators play the market on gas in the seasons... they know demand goes up for gasoline in the summer and heating oil in the winter. They play that knowledge to invest in blocks, and them sell them at maturity for a profit. That is the primary reason the cost of gas is going up as it is.

So if BP and Exxon are selling the majority of their US oil overseas, how does opening up more wells decrease inflationary pressures? The arguments listed are very weak and sound like something an oil company would claim...

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Everything in bold is what I see to be "WRONG" with your statements. These ideas highlight a shallow and novice exposure to the energy industry and current constraints to production and the relative jump in prices.

You cannot source your "73%" claim, prove me WRONG on that, please. I would wager that its closer to 94% (which makes them more of an international player than domestic) Futhermore, it's not like every single refinery or well owned and operated by these companies is here in the US, do some research, they are operating in countries where it is economically disadvantageous or even impossible to import to the US. Many oil projects are international conglomerates, in which there are already predetermined consumers in mind, most of the time (especially with the newer developments) the US is not on the recieving end. Meaning that their profits (as you erroneously stated) are not derived from "selling US crude overseas," but from their own international endeavors from foriegn sources.

As far as oil and national security issues, I would like to direct your attention to something called the SPR. Oil and national security have long been correllated. Nobody seems to take issue with that. I mean, who do you think provides the filler for the reserves?

And your claim: "that is the PRIMARY reason" for the cost increase is easily rebuked.
Do you really think that everything happening in the Middle East is of no consequence to oil prices, or that declining production is of no consequence to oil prices...

If you are willing to engage in a civil exchange of ideas, I am game.

Windsblow said:

It's alway a corporate/Capitalist conspiracy with you folks. Why isn't OPEC, the world largest cartel ever blamed for gauging us? There is never anything nefarious going on and with all the governmental panels and investigation nothing has ever been found. Gas is expensive because we have failed to be Capitalist and we imbrace the Government as the solution and regulator of everthing that is good.

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FISH ON!

Windsblow - did you read the article I posted? How exactly does the situation that story describes comport with your statement "gas is expensive because we embrace the government as the solution and regulator of everything that is good"? In short, how does the fact that oil companies are intenionaly producing less, exporting more and keeping supplies low in order to keep their profits at record levels have anything to do with your statement?

canndo said:

FISH ON!

Windsblow - did you read the article I posted? How exactly does the situation that story describes comport with your statement "gas is expensive because we embrace the government as the solution and regulator of everything that is good"? In short, how does the fact that oil companies are intenionaly producing less, exporting more and keeping supplies low in order to keep their profits at record levels have anything to do with your statement?

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YOu quoted me responding to someone else. Are you confused?

FISH ON!

"n short, how does the fact that oil companies are intenionaly producing less, exporting more and keeping supplies low in order to keep their profits at record levels"

Oh JEEEZZZUS.....

people dont realize that not only oil makes gas and other by products but they also make your clothes you are wearing etc have we reached our peak YES we have have saudi arabia and other major producing countrys realized this and have started to be more concerned,
I have drilled in all regions of the world for oil and gas from Canada shallow to deep multi directional wells, From Iceland drilling for steam
to russia , then on to Kuwait then off shore to thailand should we be concerned well look at it this way why is many car companys turning more on to other sources like electricity for there cars
i have drilled many dud wells and injection wells thus forcing any remaing oils out of the projected pay zone we have moved onto shallow well ( sweet gas ) drilling for alternate energy
there is a time soon when we will run out and as for the thread starter the major gas companys know this were drilling deeper then ever to tap into any remaing resources with many failed attempts
It not only costing the gas company even tho there showing record gains evry year but it is costing tons to get at it
I now am a oil field engineer and to tell you i sign in excess of 500,000 in tickets per drilling well good or bad not including payroll

So yes prices go up as per demand cross the board and there raking as much as they can before a alternate fuel will make the market and it WILL

canndo said:

FISH ON!

Windsblow - did you read the article I posted? How exactly does the situation that story describes comport with your statement "gas is expensive because we embrace the government as the solution and regulator of everything that is good"? In short, how does the fact that oil companies are intenionaly producing less, exporting more and keeping supplies low in order to keep their profits at record levels have anything to do with your statement?

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The notion that they are intentionally producing less is completely in counter-balance to the notion of PEAK. It's not as if there isn't a market in existence for the oil, it's just that by the inherent inability to produce the current demand, people can entertain the notion that companies are intentionally holding back production. As has been evident for a long time now, any reason whatsoever can be seen as a reason to raise the price, no matter the supply (which has never been appropriately audited). Anyone with a background in energy research will recall that during the mid 2000's most major oil companies cut their R&D programs by large margins...Why? Because there is no more oil to find, there were diminishing returns from these programs. IF they had the oil to produce, and the ability to maintain these levels, why would they not look to meet the demand and thus make more money (Which is the entire point of business, right?)? It all comes back to the same reason; we reached and surpassed peak oil production.

And as I noted in a post (not directed towards ANYONE in particular), domestic companies dont export (much) US crude, they export approximately 1.7ml/bpd, we consume nearly 19ml/bpd and import 11ml/bpd and produce 9ml/bpd...Our "exports" go to Canada for the most part btw....This is just the xenophobic and ignorant talking of things of which they understand very little.

Whither the bumpy plateau...Demand destruction...

DrFever said:

people dont realize that not only oil makes gas and other by products but they also make your clothes you are wearing etc have we reached our peak YES we have have saudi arabia and other major producing countrys realized this and have started to be more concerned,
I have drilled in all regions of the world for oil and gas from Canada shallow to deep multi directional wells, From Iceland drilling for steam
to russia , then on to Kuwait then off shore to thailand should we be concerned well look at it this way why is many car companys turning more on to other sources like electricity for there cars
i have drilled many dud wells and injection wells thus forcing any remaing oils out of the projected pay zone we have moved onto shallow well ( sweet gas ) drilling for alternate energy
there is a time soon when we will run out and as for the thread starter the major gas companys know this were drilling deeper then ever to tap into any remaing resources with many failed attempts
It not only costing the gas company even tho there showing record gains evry year but it is costing tons to get at it
I now am a oil field engineer and to tell you i sign in excess of 500,000 in tickets per drilling well good or bad not including payroll

So yes prices go up as per demand cross the board and there raking as much as they can before a alternate fuel will make the market and it WILL

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Sorry DR. But I have to disagree. How can we know what peak production is. We don't know what the resources reserves are. Knows Oil reserves have increased historically and even with the "increase" of consumption over the last decade in a half know reserve amounts have continued to increase.

I believe PArtisan and Biased parties (UN, Washington, Greenies and OPEC) continue with the lie in order to increase Profits (OPEC) and demonize Petro (greenies). The Mindless goons who want to save the world are only giving the Cartels power. Does anyone really think we will be on a different type of Energy in the next 50 years????? HELL NO we won't. But certain people wiil gain power and wealth in the meantime.

Windsblow said:

Sorry DR. But I have to disagree. How can we know what peak production is. We don't know what the resources reserves are. Knows Oil reserves have increased historically and even with the "increase" of consumption over the last decade in a half know reserve amounts have continued to increase.

I believe PArtisan and Biased parties (UN, Washington, Greenies and OPEC) continue with the lie in order to increase Profits (OPEC) and demonize Petro (greenies). The Mindless goons who want to save the world are only giving the Cartels power. Does anyone really think we will be on a different type of Energy in the next 50 years????? HELL NO we won't. But certain people wiil gain power and wealth in the meantime.

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http://gregor.us/eia/global-oil-production-update-and-eia-data-changes/

Actual petroleum production peaked in 2006. After that, the EIA decided to include the production of alternative fuels in the oil production numbers, officially, thus making it look as if production has stablized, or even increased at times. But, as has been documented, these biofuels are not viable options to continue to meet the growing divide between supply and demand. Thus, we don't necessarily have to know the reserves to realize that production has past it's peak.

The Ruiner said:

http://gregor.us/eia/global-oil-production-update-and-eia-data-changes/

Actual petroleum production peaked in 2006. After that, the EIA decided to include the production of alternative fuels in the oil production numbers, officially, thus making it look as if production has stablized, or even increased at times. But, as has been documented, these biofuels are not viable options to continue to meet the growing divide between supply and demand. Thus, we don't necessarily have to know the reserves to realize that production has past it's peak.

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I am not worried about what the EIA number state or what are included in the numbers. The fact of the matter is that the reason some "might", and I stress the word might, claim we are at peak production has nothing to do with a lack of the resource petroleum.

The Ruiner said:

I never said "you dont know" or claimed anything of the sort. I was simply adding a dynamic to the conversation, plain and simple. I really didnt know if you knew (how the hell could I?) that an overwhelming percentage of oil is produced and priced by state-run companies (which is essentially the entire world market, which is our market). There was never a question of right or wrong man, your brought that BS into the picture. I was not disagreeing with your words, at all. Like I said, I was adding another dynamic, pure and simple. I am not going to hound you for proof of MY words, I know what I said and I never brought the "right vs. wrong" equation into this, and I refuse to do so. If you cannot see that my original comment was only in the nature of expanding the conversation, I dont know what to tell you. But this he said/he said stuff is just pointless.

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You stated I wasn't privy to information that you had..... sounds like you are saying I don't know what I'm talking about?

Windsblow said:

It's alway a corporate/Capitalist conspiracy with you folks. Why isn't OPEC, the world largest cartel ever blamed for gauging us? There is never anything nefarious going on and with all the governmental panels and investigation nothing has ever been found. Gas is expensive because we have failed to be Capitalist and we imbrace the Government as the solution and regulator of everthing that is good.

Click to expand...

Since when has OPEC set prices? Not since the 80's.... oil is traded on the mercantile exchange and goes to the highest bidder. Please explain how gas is high because of our failure to be capitalists? Nothing has ever been found? I challenge you to prove that, as the findings are always the same, supply and demand...

The Ruiner said:

Everything in bold is what I see to be "WRONG" with your statements. These ideas highlight a shallow and novice exposure to the energy industry and current constraints to production and the relative jump in prices.

You cannot source your "73%" claim, prove me WRONG on that, please. I would wager that its closer to 94% (which makes them more of an international player than domestic) Futhermore, it's not like every single refinery or well owned and operated by these companies is here in the US, do some research, they are operating in countries where it is economically disadvantageous or even impossible to import to the US. Many oil projects are international conglomerates, in which there are already predetermined consumers in mind, most of the time (especially with the newer developments) the US is not on the recieving end. Meaning that their profits (as you erroneously stated) are not derived from "selling US crude overseas," but from their own international endeavors from foriegn sources.

As far as oil and national security issues, I would like to direct your attention to something called the SPR. Oil and national security have long been correllated. Nobody seems to take issue with that. I mean, who do you think provides the filler for the reserves?

And your claim: "that is the PRIMARY reason" for the cost increase is easily rebuked.
Do you really think that everything happening in the Middle East is of no consequence to oil prices, or that declining production is of no consequence to oil prices...

If you are willing to engage in a civil exchange of ideas, I am game.

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So now i'm shallow and novice? and you want me to have a discussion with you, even after your smart ass remarks? you're kidding? right?

My 73% figure was from memory. I read the breakdown on MSNBC Tuesday, after Monday's earnings reports. Sales of US Crude to foreign markets is hardly 94%. Are you also suggesting it is cheaper to tank oil to a foreign country to refine to gas and ship it back as gas is cheaper than refining oil here? Where did you arrive at that conclusion? You challenge me to do research, yet you haven't done any. The US is the 5th largest refiner in the world. Even Iran doesn't refine it's own oil. You want sources? OK,..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oil_refineries#North_America

Also, Exxon does indeed sell US CRUDE on the open market, They also sell heating oil, and gasoline, refined right here in the states, going to foreign countries willing to pay the premium...
http://www.platts.com/weblog/oilblog/2010/05/09/us_oil_exp.html

Many oil projects are international conglomerates, in which there are already predetermined consumers in mind, most of the time (especially with the newer developments) the US is not on the recieving end. Meaning that their profits (as you erroneously stated) are not derived from "selling US crude overseas," but from their own international endeavors from foriegn sources.

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Uh, you don;t get it.. or you are twisting words.... Profits are indeed generated from selling US oil and oil products to the foreign market. My point was, "why open up more shores to drilling when they oil they drill now goes to foreign markets?"

My exact words were...

So if BP and Exxon are selling the majority of their US oil overseas, how does opening up more wells decrease inflationary pressures? The arguments listed are very weak and sound like something an oil company would claim...

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How you are tying profits to that remark baffles me.... I'm merely pointing out that the majority of what they drill in US territory ends up in other markets, not the US market. Therefore opening up additional well sources is pointless, it's just going to go to the highest bidder anyways.

And how in the hell do you discern that I think the middle east unrest has no effect on prices? Do you really read that between my lines? If unrest affects production, then supply is shortened and the price goes up.

try again... point out where I stated that oil companies set prices, minus refinery output.... I never did...