Dyna-Gro vs Advanced Nutrients Connoisseur (AK47 Grow)

Trichy Bastard · Jun 14, 2012

Yes Medicalary, perfect explanation. Dickhead, if you need to visualize it in your head, a simple way to put it is that in dynagro 9-3-5 in any given amount there will be a ratio comprised of: N-P-K where
N (nitrogen) =9 parts
P=(phosphorus) =3 parts
K=(potassium) =5 parts

No matter how strong you mix it into your water it will have the same RATIOS, but just at different total strength depending on dilusion (ppm).Say you want to have a higher ratio of potassium like 9-3-25 - If you mix the 9-3-5 product with exactly equal amounts of a 0-0-20 product you get:
9-3-5
+-+-+
0-0-20 = 9-3-25 as your final ratio.
Then you take that and just mix the proper amount into water to get the ppm you want, but it will always be at the same exact ratio. The thing you have to be careful of is mixing the full strength nutes to eachother because some of them do not play nicely together in high concentrations- hence why most nute brands have a part A and part B. Luckily dynagro seems to be special in that it can all be in one bottle and they say it's a trade secret how they make it work that way. Hope this makes sense. Once you wrap your head around it- it's not so complicated until you try to make a certain N-P-K ratio out of different amounts of different bottles, since they might both include N when you are only trying to raise your K then you have to account for the extra N that comes with both bottles if that makes sense. There are "nutrient calculators" online you can use for this sort of complexity, a good one to start with is the "canna-stats calculator" which you can read more about and find here: http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htmr

The cool thing about Dyna is really all you have to do is fine tune HB's guidelines for your situation by watching the plants. A little more or less grow, bloom, protekt and magpro, and that's as hard as it will be to get great results. (other than keeping the ph in check and providing the correct ppm's).

dickkhead · Jun 14, 2012

medicalmary said:
16 essential salts are necessary for plants to grow. The big three are nitrogen (n), phosphorus (p), and potassium (k). Each fertilizer you use has a 3 digit number on them that has the ratio of these macro fertilizer salts. Calcium, Magnesium, and Silicon are mid tier and are supplied in much lower dosages. And everything else (called micro nutrients) is supplied in much smaller quantities. So, If you are mixing two fertilizers with fertilizer #1 having an n-p-k of 2-1-2 and fertilizer two have an n-p-k of 1-2-2 you would have a new n-p-k for the mixture of these two fertilizers. to figure it out you just add the two n-p-ks together and reduce. so, it would be 3-3-4 n-p-k or if you want 1.5-1.5-2, etc. However, you would only have this ratio if you mix them at the exact same rate, so each fertilizer comprise exactly 50% of the mixture. The reason we all like dyna gro is that it is a complete fertilizer with all the micro nutrients in the base, so we don't have to worry about really strange deficiency symptoms from popping up. I have no idea what a manganese deficiency look like off the top of my head and don't plan on learning what one looks like anytime soon.

When we talk about parts in terms of n-p-k we are not talking about the ratio of actually elements available in the fertilizer to one another. We are not talking about dyna-gro part A or B, etc. We are talking about for every atom of nitrogen there is going to be one atom of phosphorus in the solution.

now, while the ratios might be the same when reduce like say jacks is a 20-20-20 and I have a different fertilizer (X) that is a 1-1-1. These are the same ratio, but the jacks has more of a concentration of the elements in it. So, when i mix jacks with my water I use a hell of a lot less then when I use fertilizer X. Infact I use 20 time more of fertilizer X to get the same parts per million of elements of my fertilizer. So, the higher the number the more concentrated and usually the cheaper it is in the long term.

mm

Trichy Bastard said:
Yes Medicalary, perfect explanation. Dickhead, if you need to visualize it in your head, a simple way to put it is that in dynagro 9-3-5 in any given amount there will be a ratio comprised of: N-P-K where
N (nitrogen) =9 parts
P=(phosphorus) =3 parts
K=(potassium) =5 parts

No matter how strong you mix it into your water it will have the same RATIOS, but just at different total strength depending on dilusion (ppm).Say you want to have a higher ratio of potassium like 9-3-25 - If you mix the 9-3-5 product with exactly equal amounts of a 0-0-20 product you get:
9-3-5
+-+-+
0-0-20 = 9-3-25 as your final ratio.
Then you take that and just mix the proper amount into water to get the ppm you want, but it will always be at the same exact ratio. The thing you have to be careful of is mixing the full strength nutes to eachother because some of them do not play nicely together in high concentrations- hence why most nute brands have a part A and part B. Luckily dynagro seems to be special in that it can all be in one bottle and they say it's a trade secret how they make it work that way. Hope this makes sense. Once you wrap your head around it- it's not so complicated until you try to make a certain N-P-K ratio out of different amounts of different bottles, since they might both include N when you are only trying to raise your K then you have to account for the extra N that comes with both bottles if that makes sense. There are "nutrient calculators" online you can use for this sort of complexity, a good one to start with is the "canna-stats calculator" which you can read more about and find here: http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htmr

The cool thing about Dyna is really all you have to do is fine tune HB's guidelines for your situation by watching the plants. A little more or less grow, bloom, protekt and magpro, and that's as hard as it will be to get great results. (other than keeping the ph in check and providing the correct ppm's).

thank you both for breaking that down and now I understand why some nutes hav high and low numbers on their NPK. and im going to try and lower my ppm a bit cause theres no sense in running 1000 ppm if not needed! and if I see def ill add something back in its just crazy that 2 of pinnaple express plants which come to find out are heavy feeders show def on week 8 of flower feeding at such high levels in pro mix 1tsp grow 1tsp of bloom, 2ml protekt, 2 ml mag pro= 1000 ppm and showed some yellow leaves im gna try half tsp foliage pro to 1.5 bloom, 2 ml mag pro and 3 ml pro tekt its a 10 week strain and it still is popping out white hairs and fattening up. but so far the resin production is top notch!

homebrewer · Jun 14, 2012

dickkhead said:
...its just crazy that 2 of pinnaple express plants which come to find out are heavy feeders show def on week 8 of flower feeding at such high levels in pro mix 1tsp grow 1tsp of bloom, 2ml protekt, 2 ml mag pro= 1000 ppm and showed some yellow leaves im gna try half tsp foliage pro to 1.5 bloom, 2 ml mag pro and 3 ml pro tekt its a 10 week strain and it still is popping out white hairs and fattening up. but so far the resin production is top notch!

I promise you that you're not seeing deficiencies, you're seeing the signs of overfeeding. You're currently feeding your promix girls 3 times that of where I feed mine and I've long forgotten what a deficient leaf looks like.

hornedfrog2000 · Jun 14, 2012

I have some 2/3 meter plants and they are only getting 3ml of grow and are green as could be.

dickkhead · Jun 15, 2012

homebrewer said:
I promise you that you're not seeing deficiencies, you're seeing the signs of overfeeding. You're currently feeding your promix girls 3 times that of where I feed mine and I've long forgotten what a deficient leaf looks like.

well this strain is known to be a heavy feeder but your prob right im gna back dilute that down to 300ppm and go from there

Trichy Bastard · Jun 15, 2012

dickkhead said:
well this strain is known to be a heavy feeder but your prob right im gna back dilute that down to 300ppm and go from there

Heavy feeder=might take a few hundred extra ppm's- not couple thousand extra lol... If you are having a deficiency it is more likely due to a lockout or burn. Now imagine all those people out there running under the common "wisdom?" to feed as high as possible just short of nute burns. Imagine how the systems in the plant start to breakdown under the unnatural chemical load as it tries to compensate. Even before the burn is evident, the plant is not flourishing in a healthy state, but making compromises to keep systems going. Growth begins to slow as the plant focuses on survival mode under stressful conditions where the chemical reactions in the tissues are being pushed just before the point of system breakdown. And these same growers are actually slowing down the process of growth by the very method they think they are increasing it by. You might be surprised when you feed the plant just the maximum amount it can healthily use and process that it will actually grow at it's fastest rate under those optimal conditions. Just like how people can OD on vitamins, nutrients in high doses become toxic to a plant and they are doing damage and disrupting things well before any outward burning symptoms are evident.

sharpshoota · Jun 15, 2012

dickkhead said:
I'm still new to this so please forgive me but when u say 1-3-2 N-p-k Is that tsp per gallon 1tsp FP, 3tsp bloom,2tsp of protekt? And yea I'm gna try to just keep them green uptil when I harvest but not over feed them!

1-3-2 means the percentage of the actual elements in a given bottle. meaning 1 percent of, for example, a quart is N, 3 percent is P, 2 percent is K

some info on nitrogen:
Nitrate (NO3) (quickest available)
Amonia Nitrate (NH3) Ammonium Nitrate (NH4) ( like trichy bastard said, requires bacteria to breakdown into nitrate)
Urea Nitrate [CO(NH2)2] (basically has to be broken down to ammonium nitrate then to nitrate before the plant can use it, a 3-step process)
***Dynagro does not use urea nitrogen, I believe some advanced nutrients products use this form...

an example:
Nitrate NO3 = 14+16(3)= 62
atomic weight of N=14.0067
atomic weight of O=15.9994
divide the atomic weight of nitrogen by the atomic weight of the molecule to get the percent of nitrogen in that molecule
N is 22.58% of NO3

But that doesnt mean the ppms are 1 part nitrogen to 3 parts phosphorus to 2 parts potassium. So what they do is maniupulate the amount (shown in percentages aka NPK) of each element they add to the (example) quart factoring the atomic weight of each molecule to provide a desired ppm amount of each element....

A 1-3-2 @ 1tsp/gal
13ppm - N
17ppm - P
22ppm - K

NO3 - 23% Nitrogen
P2O5 - 44% Phosphorus
K2O - 83% Potassium
(I rounded % up)

this should make complete sense now... the easiest way to remeber this is what the others said 1-3-2 is 1 part nitrogen to 3 parts phosphorus to 2 parts potassium

p.s. i had to retype this.... f-ing logged me out

sharpshoota · Jun 15, 2012

you dont need 10 bottles, 10 promises. Just understand the basics of how a plant works and what a plant needs. Not the promises of a salesman trying to sell a product...
And when you reach that point you will realize its a simple process... LOL... LIKE HOMEBREWER HAS BEEN TRYING TO SAY/PROVE ALL ALONG!!

HB is a great contribution to the growing community here at RIU. Many newbs dont listen though and its quite an amusement...

hornedfrog2000 · Jun 15, 2012

Less is more. I love only having to buy 4 nutrients. I've heard of people spending over $500 on a grow in nutes. WTF?! I spend probably $30 on nutes each grow, if even.

homebrewer · Jun 16, 2012

sharpshoota said:
some info on nitrogen:
Nitrate (NO3) (quickest available)
Amonia Nitrate (NH3) Ammonium Nitrate (NH4) ( like trichy bastard said, requires bacteria to breakdown into nitrate)
Urea Nitrate [CO(NH2)2] (basically has to be broken down to ammonium nitrate then to nitrate before the plant can use it, a 3-step process)
***Dynagro does not use urea nitrogen, I believe some advanced nutrients products use this form...

Connoisseur uses Urea and Other water soluble nitrogen to make up 73% of their total nitrogen composition. These are cheap sources of nitrogen which are not typically found in hydroponic formulas. I think based on how my plants looked at the end of this journal, it's pretty telling as to why we always see the nitrogen being composed of nitrate and ammoniacal in high quality hydroponic plant foods.

Water Soluble Nitrogen:
1. A form of fertilizer in which the nitrogen is readily available for uptake by plants, and which provides quick color and growth response, limited response duration and high foliar burn and leaching potential; WSN sources are typically less expensive per pound of nutrient than Water insoluble nitrogen (WIN) sources.

I'll post a picture in a week or so of my H&G test grow. Aqua Flakes is doing fantastic and is further proof that AN's Connoisseur is total garbage for hydroponic use.

dickkhead · Jun 17, 2012

Trichy Bastard said:
Heavy feeder=might take a few hundred extra ppm's- not couple thousand extra lol... If you are having a deficiency it is more likely due to a lockout or burn. Now imagine all those people out there running under the common "wisdom?" to feed as high as possible just short of nute burns. Imagine how the systems in the plant start to breakdown under the unnatural chemical load as it tries to compensate. Even before the burn is evident, the plant is not flourishing in a healthy state, but making compromises to keep systems going. Growth begins to slow as the plant focuses on survival mode under stressful conditions where the chemical reactions in the tissues are being pushed just before the point of system breakdown. And these same growers are actually slowing down the process of growth by the very method they think they are increasing it by. You might be surprised when you feed the plant just the maximum amount it can healthily use and process that it will actually grow at it's fastest rate under those optimal conditions. Just like how people can OD on vitamins, nutrients in high doses become toxic to a plant and they are doing damage and disrupting things well before any outward burning symptoms are evident.

ik I shouldve never emailed that dg rep he said fee inbtween the soil and drain to waste chart, and I did think it was to much but he insisted that the plants need it in productivity and the lo doses that they say to use on the back of the bottle are for house plant mostly not MJ under HID or LED. sense i was feeding that high im gna play it safe and do a mild nute flush 7 days out and finish with ph water this round!

matatan · Jun 26, 2012

hey HB question for ya..
i have an aerocloner i just purchased at a very good price and plan on running a flood n drain 3x3 table under 600whps. i have 2yrs growing n have kept it simple growing in 3-5gal pots of coco, hand watering, using gh micro/bloom(lucas/h3ad) with a few addictives like sweet raw and calmag+.

since i will be cloning out of an aerocloner i have no means of getting the clones into rockwool(or do i?), so i was thinking with going what i know, small pots maybe 1-2gal w coco as many as i can fit in the 3x3 table. iv never seen anyone on this site running flood n drain w coco, they all say its not a good idea, it will clog up your fill/drain.
but if i were to use fabric pots where there isnt any holes, and flood like if it where rockwool i shouldnt have any blockage issues because none of the coco will be exposed . am i right or am i right?? lol

flooding will have to be minimal compared to rockwool probably only once or twice per day i understand that. is there anything else i should be aware of and plan for??

my tap is 200-250ppm, what would be a good flowering grow/bloom/protekt ml per gal, feeding coco with my tap?

great work dude! awesome detailed threads

homebrewer · Jun 26, 2012

matatan said:
since i will be cloning out of an aerocloner i have no means of getting the clones into rockwool(or do i?),

If you wanted to work with rockwool, what you could do is take the rooted cutting from your aero cloner and set it in the rockwool block (I like 6" blocks). There will be some 'air space' around the roots after placing the cutting in the circular cutout which can then be filled in with a little coco to insure the roots don't dry out. Top-water for a few days until the roots have grown into the blocks and voila, you're good to go.

Personally, I wouldn't run coco in flood and drain but if you want to be the guy that shows us all it can be done and it doesn't create a big mess, have at it.

my tap is 200-250ppm, what would be a good flowering grow/bloom/protekt ml per gal, feeding coco with my tap?

I would suggest RO water. In any event, if you like the results you're getting with GH, feed at the same EC with DynaGro. High quality, balanced fertilizers are consistent and stable and are trouble-free to work with. The same EC can be used regardless of the brand.

Trichy Bastard · Jun 26, 2012

I have a bag of rockwool "croutons" - something like that might fill in the hole too, or perhaps even filling a large netpot with these like soil could be done in lieu of cubes altogether. The rockwool in this form has different characteristics and tends to get more soggy however.

dickkhead · Jun 26, 2012

homebrewer said:
If you wanted to work with rockwool, what you could do is take the rooted cutting from your aero cloner and set it in the rockwool block (I like 6" blocks). There will be some 'air space' around the roots after placing the cutting in the circular cutout which can then be filled in with a little coco to insure the roots don't dry out. Top-water for a few days until the roots have grown into the blocks and voila, you're good to go.

Personally, I wouldn't run coco in flood and drain but if you want to be the guy that shows us all it can be done and it doesn't create a big mess, have at it.

I would suggest RO water. In any event, if you like the results you're getting with GH, feed at the same EC with DynaGro. High quality, balanced fertilizers are consistent and stable and are trouble-free to work with. The same EC can be used regardless of the brand.

I'm currently running a flood and drain with 3 gallon smart pots and roots coco flooding for 15min every 8 hours with a 5-6" flood and these things are thriving! Also straight tap and feeding at half what DG recc on there hydro chart but replacing 25% of the bloom with grow formula and mag pro at 1.25 And pro tekt at 3ml/gal ( thanks HB) I'm on week 3 today of flower and there happy so far

matatan · Jun 27, 2012

homebrewer said:
I would suggest RO water. In any event, if you like the results you're getting with GH, feed at the same EC with DynaGro. High quality, balanced fertilizers are consistent and stable and are trouble-free to work with. The same EC can be used regardless of the brand.

i never pass 1000ppm if i get heavy handed i just add fresh water. but when i switch to dynagro i will adapt your philosophy of 1-3-2, will i be ok going with DGs recommended hydro chart then adding fresh water to get ideal ppm range?
do/can u recommend any specific brand of RO machine?

dickkhead said:
I'm currently running a flood and drain with 3 gallon smart pots and roots coco flooding for 15min every 8 hours with a 5-6" flood and these things are thriving!

pics??? thread??? id love to follow along and watch your ladies grow up. :bigjoint:

homebrewer · Jun 27, 2012

matatan said:
i never pass 1000ppm if i get heavy handed i just add fresh water. but when i switch to dynagro i will adapt your philosophy of 1-3-2,

It's just that with 200-250 ppm water, it'll be hard to maintain beautiful girls all the way to the end. That's quite a large amount of calcium, chloride, sodium, sulfate and magnesium in your water and I think by the end of the grow, your plants will show you that they did not need all of that. My water is where yours is which is why i use RO.RO is not necessary to grow plants but you'll get better yields and healthier plants with RO as apposed to your tap water.

will i be ok going with DGs recommended hydro chart then adding fresh water to get ideal ppm range?

I think their proportions are fairly accurate so if you scale things back to a lower ppm, I think you'll be set. You wont need magpro with that water you're using. If you have it and wanted to use it, maybe 1/2ml per gallon would be enough.

do/can u recommend any specific brand of RO machine?

I use the hydrologic stealth 200 because it's the only one in its size that is offered.

Trichy Bastard · Jun 27, 2012

Also if you have a costco where you live, you can't beat the quality for the price of their unit- I think it even has the uv stage and the whole kit w/tank & faucet is $120. Anyone could install in an hour or 2 at most... The replacement filters are also available there for a good price. I found a 1/2" clear tubing slips tightly over the end of the faucet and I just route to refill my 5 gallon water bottles on the floor in advance and use as needed in my res.

unohu69 · Jun 28, 2012

hey HB, youve probly been asked this before, IDK. Have you ever used the FoxFarm line up of nutes? I was jus curious as to your opinion of them. My buddy jus ordered the whole line-up. like 8 or 9 bottles of shit. granted your probly only using 3 or 4 at one time. bout like me i sposse.

I finally got some F+ and have been using it, dont know if its really making a difference yet, but will continue with it.

homebrewer · Jun 28, 2012

unohu69 said:
hey HB, youve probly been asked this before, IDK. Have you ever used the FoxFarm line up of nutes? I was jus curious as to your opinion of them. My buddy jus ordered the whole line-up. like 8 or 9 bottles of shit. granted your probly only using 3 or 4 at one time. bout like me i sposse.

I've always considered fox farm and botanicare to be pretty comparable to one another and I used Botanicare's Pure Blend for about 8 years. Your buddy doesn't need 8-9 different bottles to grow a plant but I'm sure what he has will work.

I finally got some F+ and have been using it, dont know if its really making a difference yet, but will continue with it.

I really like it in hydro but found it doesn't make a noticeable difference in the dirt.

Dyna-Gro vs Advanced Nutrients Connoisseur (AK47 Grow)

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