Early Signs of Defeciency

ShLUbY said:

the key thing i think we're missing here.... you did not water it in with a basic compost tea?? 5 gallon bucket with 4 gallons of pure water (RO, rain, whatever), cup of worm castings plus 1/4cup molasses heavily bubbled for 24-48hrs

seems like maybe the microbe population is low in your soil. like poster above said, this tea will not feed your plant, it will feed your soil, which feeds your plant slowly. guarantee will not burn.

Edit: also if your soil dries out too much it will make the micro life unhappy. which will cause them to stop breaking down things in the soil to feed your plant!

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I don't have a bubbler. green said I can get one for cheap but tbh I don't even know what I'm looking for.

and I did let me soil dry out a couple times cause it seemed as I had over watered. and I wanted it to dry evenly before my next watering. that might be cause the issue though?

bankcee said:

I don't have a bubbler. green said I can get one for cheap but tbh I don't even know what I'm looking for.
and I did let me soil dry out a couple times cause it seemed as I had over watered. and I wanted it to dry evenly before my next watering. that might be cause the issue though?

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if you have a local grow store, you want an air pump and a couple of air stones; shouldn't cost you more than 40-50$. the stones sit in the bottom of your bucket of water + tea ingredients. the pump moves air through tubes to the stones, which dissolve O2 into your water. the micro life in the water depend on that dissolved O2 to live. brew that tea for 24-36 hours, strain it, and water it into your pots. i gave you the recipe a few posts ago. those microbes will go to town on your amendments in your mix and feed those plants!

letting the soil dry out once probably wouldn't be shocking your microlife that bad. i think you just have a lack of microlife in general. you want to keep your soil moist, but not sopping wet. and try not to let it dry out so much that it feel super light. just give it less water more often. there is no need for runoff, or flushing of SS. you just want your growing medium evenly saturated all the way through.

green_machine_two9er said:

way to much azomite imo. and what kind of lime are you talking about? makes a big difference. i was talked into skipping it altogether and subing with oyster shell, gypsum other buffers such as active biochar

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I had posted a while back I think about using azomite and at what rate? and didn't get many responses. so I went with what I think was the only response. lol I'm using garden lime I got it where I got the epsoma plant tone. I think it's that brand.. same packaging too. do I need to use all those to substitute or one and if one which your favorite?

ShLUbY said:

if you have a local grow store, you want an air pump and a couple of air stones; shouldn't cost you more than 40-50$. the stones sit in the bottom of your bucket of water + tea ingredients. the pump moves air through tubes to the stones, which dissolve O2 into your water. the micro life in the water depend on that dissolved O2 to live. brew that tea for 24-36 hours, strain it, and water it into your pots. i gave you the recipe a few posts ago. those microbes will go to town on your amendments in your mix and feed those plants!

letting the soil dry out once probably wouldn't be shocking your microlife that bad. i think you just have a lack of microlife in general. you want to keep your soil moist, but not sopping wet. and try not to let it dry out so much that it feel super light. just give it less water more often. there is no need for runoff, or flushing of SS. you just want your growing medium evenly saturated all the way through.

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k my homie works at a hydro store will they have it there? you think? lol I tried figuring if I needed run off with super soil and I couldn't find an answer to that one either I seen yes and I seen no more yes than no so I started giving them 2 gallons each. I think one was saturating it enough for a few days.

so let me get this straight, I'm seeing these defeciencies because my microbes aren't breaking down my ammendments into a form that my roots can take up? and in essence my plant isn't eating? are the microbes there or do they die off? and I'm adding more.

anything I can do before I get a bubbler? something just like a ewc and water mix with no bubbler. or ewc and kelp with no bubbler or anything without a bubbler. I'm gonna hit my homie up tonight and see how soon I can get one. but I don't want to leave it like this any longer

ShLUbY said:

also thinking maybe a bit too much lime? 1 cup cuft is a lot when you have the crab shell in there too. the azomite is a rock dust, i wouldn't think it would mess up the mix that much. but im not entirely sure of its exact mineral content off hand.

But honestly if you never hit them with the compost tea... i think that's the biggest problem going on, shortage of microbiology. otherwise, i think it would take a long time for the microbes in the EWC to totally colonize the soil. the sugar from the molasses will grow you a nice colony, and water those colonies in and you plant should respond well.

Aloe vera gel is a great thing to water at a rate of 2tbsp per gallon of water to help ease stress. coconut water at a rate of 1cup per 4 gallons of h20 for a quick enzyme tea. really perks up the ladies!

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where can I get molasses? any suggested brands? and also how often can the aloe be used in a watering? or even the coconut?

and is crab meal and crab shell the same cause mine says crab meal? so is the lime still an issue if they are different?

bankcee said:

haven't fed anything since I planted just good old water. I don't think it's pm. the other night i hit them with some spinosad and that showed up the next morning. ive had that white powder when i sprayed them down with DE a while back too then some rain washed it off.. idk if the spinosad kinda dried that way. how can i distinguish that it is pm? I've been overly cautious with feedings cause I don't wanna burn then if it isn't a deficiency. and I've wanted to top dress with some ewc some kelp and maybe, maybe some alfalfa. but I'm nervous. haha don't wanna fuck em up.

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If you don't want to fuck em up, don't do anything. What's happening is perfectly normal. Bottom leaves die first, simple fact. The rest of the plant looks fine and it's the new growth you need to watch, not the oldest.

Just water and nothing else. There is nothing to "fix".

Wet

Wetdog said:

If you don't want to fuck em up, don't do anything. What's happening is perfectly normal. Bottom leaves die first, simple fact. The rest of the plant looks fine and it's the new growth you need to watch, not the oldest.

Just water and nothing else. There is nothing to "fix".

Wet

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I do think that my plamt isn't eating much anymore also cause it hasn't really grown noticeably like it was before this started happening. so I do wanna boost my micro life to allow my roots to get some grub. and like I said I did let my soil dry out a bit and that might have cause my micro life to diminish.

also does anyone know what happens to earth worm castings if the dry out. I bought some the other day and they were in the sun when I picked them up and I've had them in the shade since.. lol

bankcee said:

where can I get molasses? any suggested brands? and also how often can the aloe be used in a watering? or even the coconut?

and is crab meal and crab shell the same cause mine says crab meal? so is the lime still an issue if they are different?

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unsulfered backstrap molasses, any grocerie store or amazon. yes your good on the crab meal. and as long as you did not use hydrogenated or instant lime. not all lime has the same ratio of Ca to Mg and can be the cause of lockout. dolomite is equal Mg to Ca but that is not always best.

Outside, in those fabric pots, I would water pretty heavily. Not like some kind of crazy flush, but at least until run-off from the sides. Then I would let that "seep in" for an hour or so and water a little more. In my opinion, it's better to be a little too moist than too dry. And the fabric pots dry quickly, especially around the sides.

If you're worried about microbes, you could top dress with some compost and/or EWC then just water it in. Keep this top layer damp and there should be lots of microbes in there. I'm pretty sure this will help balance out any issues too much lime may have caused.

You can use a little fish-tank air pump, if you've got one laying around for your AACT. If you have a pump that's not super powerful, cut the Tea Recipe in half. The weak pump can still drive a little oxygen into a little water.

4 cups of nutrients and 4 cups of minerals per c.f. in your soil sounds OK to me. Save the soil after this grow. Re-amend it. Tweak your recipe. Its an ongoing process to try to get it perfect.

I would respect Wet Dog's opinion about your plants. Sometimes its easy to make up imagined problems for yourself, then really mess things up with a solution. The point of water only is not to stress. But if you just can't leave things alone, you could top dress with a little ( like tablespoons?) of that Espoma Plant Tone. Its a "complete, balanced" fertilizer, so it should have everything, and not cause lock out or anything crazy.

If you are growing outdoors in a smart pot there is a very good chance that your plants will need more water than indoors. This extra watering is going to leach out your SS nutes very fast. You should not be getting any yellow leaves with a SS that is maintained properly, unless you have cold temps. There are big time advantages to using SS with myco fungi and regular AACTs. In high temps you will need to do some top dressing as well, I like to use organic 5-5-5 until I see that it is not keeping up.

Lastly, pretty obvious the white stuff is not PM, but residue.

bankcee said:

I had posted a while back I think about using azomite and at what rate? and didn't get many responses. so I went with what I think was the only response. lol I'm using garden lime I got it where I got the epsoma plant tone. I think it's that brand.. same packaging too. do I need to use all those to substitute or one and if one which your favorite?

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i think you are fine on the azomite. it's a rock dust, not a plant food. everyone has been saying how lime is not the right agent to use in the soil for Ph, and that oyster shell in combination with the crab shell IS the liming agent. but that being said, they are all saying they dont like the lime because it "doesn't break down fast enough" to release the calcium and magnesium that the lime is chemically made up of. With proper microbe populations, they should dictate the ph of the soil for you quite a bit. but i think they'll have a harder time with all.

the espoma products i'm not a fan of just based on how they looked, i didn't trust that they were really organic. and remember just because it's "organic" isn't the end all be all. be informed about the products you use and choose them based on your own standards for your garden.

bankcee said:

k my homie works at a hydro store will they have it there? you think? lol I tried figuring if I needed run off with super soil and I couldn't find an answer to that one either I seen yes and I seen no more yes than no so I started giving them 2 gallons each. I think one was saturating it enough for a few days.

so let me get this straight, I'm seeing these defeciencies because my microbes aren't breaking down my ammendments into a form that my roots can take up? and in essence my plant isn't eating? are the microbes there or do they die off? and I'm adding more.

anything I can do before I get a bubbler? something just like a ewc and water mix with no bubbler. or ewc and kelp with no bubbler or anything without a bubbler. I'm gonna hit my homie up tonight and see how soon I can get one. but I don't want to leave it like this any longer

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yes your homie at the grow store should have it. everyone growing nowadays is using pumps and air stones at some point. you want LOTS of bubbles in that bucket. if the bubbling is kind of weak, as another poster suggested just brew a smaller batch of more concentrated tea, and dilute it with plain water when you go water it in.

I can't say 100% without a doubt that the reason you're seeing deficiency is because of the microbes, but that is my first guess that's for sure. I'm sure there are microbes in there, but they can go dormant when soil gets dry. Also, you didn't boost the populations of them with the compost tea when you mixed your soil, so i'm betting you could use a boost

. You can topdress and water in EWC before you get the bubbler if you wish to. I would not let the EWC sit in the water for any extended period of time (it can go anaerobic) as you need that pump to feed them microbes that are IN the ewc some oxygen and keep things aerobic!

bankcee said:

I do think that my plamt isn't eating much anymore also cause it hasn't really grown noticeably like it was before this started happening. so I do wanna boost my micro life to allow my roots to get some grub. and like I said I did let my soil dry out a bit and that might have cause my micro life to diminish.

also does anyone know what happens to earth worm castings if the dry out. I bought some the other day and they were in the sun when I picked them up and I've had them in the shade since.. lol

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as far as the worm castings... from what i've been told basically anything you buy in the growstores are junk to begin with. I mean they'll serve a purpose for sure, but they are not top quality like making your own, or buying from an experienced worm casting farmer.

bankcee said:

where can I get molasses? any suggested brands? and also how often can the aloe be used in a watering? or even the coconut?

and is crab meal and crab shell the same cause mine says crab meal? so is the lime still an issue if they are different?

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unsulfured black strap molasses is what you want. my grow store guy had it in there so i bought it there. crab meal is crab shell same thing. aloe and coconut i just use every so often and rotate them when used; so if i use aloe, the next time i want to give them something more than just water, i'll use the coconut water. you follow? but really, you don't need them, these are just little tips and tricks. i'll actually be experimenting in my no till pots if tricks like that pay off in the end FOR ME. maybe for someone else they didn't... but i'm seeing if they do for me.

oh and when you have runoff from your pots, you ARE leaching things from your soil. so do your watering half at a time if you can. if they take a gallon, give one half slowly and give it time to make its way in the pot and wick to where it's dry. then water in the other half gallon. you'll find you need less water with this method (i discovered that anyway). I try for no runoff, or very very minimal if i feel the pot isn't saturated enough.

you can look into a DIY self watering type set up. i see people employing all kinds of things to keep soil at that optimum wicking moisture level. this will keep your micro life happy and thriving

@ShLUbY I appreciate all the help and guidance you've given me. it's really going to change my train of thought.. and of course my actions.

I have ewc and this redwood mulch?

would these work together. I have these in hand right now is why I ask?

and do I do like inches worth of ewc to inches worth of mulch? this is my first rodeo. haha

i would skip the mulch. at least for me indoors was a breeding ground for buggers. there are more efective ways to keep moisture levels right. Just EWC and a light mix of coco coir/perlight works well for me. i mix into the coco/perlight 2 TBSP each per gallon. DE, Crab meal, Neem seed meal. Maybe some guano up top as well. (only place i use guano is for topdress. )

bankcee said:

@ShLUbY I appreciate all the help and guidance you've given me. it's really going to change my train of thought.. and of course my actions.

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for sure. I just hope i'm providing good help lol. one thing one needs to understand when using a SS or any living soil, is that the microbes are doing the work, and the plant is growing itself. there's very little you need to do for the plant, and to just let the soil take care of it. your amendments and microbes are your fertilizer bank of the soil. the plant will withdraw what it wants from the soil when it wants it, as long as there is some in the bank! you dig?

you could topdress some EWC, up to 2 inches some suggest but i dont think you need that much since your soil was just mixed not that long ago, and then use the redwood bark as a mulch to help keep your soil from drying out so fast on the top.

green_machine_two9er said:

i would skip the mulch. at least for me indoors was a breeding ground for buggers. there are more efective ways to keep moisture levels right. Just EWC and a light mix of coco coir/perlight works well for me. i mix into the coco/perlight 2 TBSP each per gallon. DE, Crab meal, Neem seed meal. Maybe some guano up top as well. (only place i use guano is for topdress. )

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you can mix a few amendments into the EWC if you want to, but you should have LOADS of amendments in your soil from the recipe you posted, so i feel that this would be redundant. and also if you are going to be using guanos, be careful with the stuff, can give you nasty eye infections and shit from that stuff. plus the mining of guanos destroys bat habitat and there are far better choices than the guanos out there, IMO. this is why i feel you just need the microbe tea (ACT), you already have lots of EWC in your mix, i feel it just needs a boost from the tea. remember you are not making a nutrient tea, you are making the tea for the microbes. i feel your soil has plenty in the bank as far a nutrients go. your VERY SLIGHT deficiency is not in a stage to panic about lol.

lots of people are using mulch in living soil, but it's not necessary. i will be using it for sure when i get my no till pots going, living mulch and non living (straw, bark, ect.) just to see what works best for me. remember what works for some doesn't always work for other because we all have our own little touches when it comes to things. that's why these forums can be helpful (and confusing) at covering all the angles lol. KISS, keep it stupid simple. ACT is stupid simple haha.

ShLUbY said:

for sure. I just hope i'm providing good help lol. one thing one needs to understand when using a SS or any living soil, is that the microbes are doing the work, and the plant is growing itself. there's very little you need to do for the plant, and to just let the soil take care of it. your amendments and microbes are your fertilizer bank of the soil. the plant will withdraw what it wants from the soil when it wants it, as long as there is some in the bank! you dig?

you could topdress some EWC, up to 2 inches some suggest but i dont think you need that much since your soil was just mixed not that long ago, and then use the redwood bark as a mulch to help keep your soil from drying out so fast on the top.

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I what rate would you suggest the perlite and ewc. I don't have coco I have sphagnum peat moss. would that suffice?

ShLUbY said:

you can mix a few amendments into the EWC if you want to, but you should have LOADS of amendments in your soil from the recipe you posted, so i feel that this would be redundant. and also if you are going to be using guanos, be careful with the stuff, can give you nasty eye infections and shit from that stuff. plus the mining of guanos destroys bat habitat and there are far better choices than the guanos out there, IMO. this is why i feel you just need the microbe tea (ACT), you already have lots of EWC in your mix, i feel it just needs a boost from the tea. remember you are not making a nutrient tea, you are making the tea for the microbes. i feel your soil has plenty in the bank as far a nutrients go. your VERY SLIGHT deficiency is not in a stage to panic about lol.

lots of people are using mulch in living soil, but it's not necessary. i will be using it for sure when i get my no till pots going, living mulch and non living (straw, bark, ect.) just to see what works best for me. remember what works for some doesn't always work for other because we all have our own little touches when it comes to things. that's why these forums can be helpful (and confusing) at covering all the angles lol. KISS, keep it stupid simple. ACT is stupid simple haha.

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and what rate if ewc to mulch should I use for a top dress? I'm gonna read more about it and decide later today.

to use or not to use the redwood mulch.

bankcee said:

I what rate would you suggest the perlite and ewc. I don't have coco I have sphagnum peat moss. would that suffice?



and what rate if ewc to mulch should I use for a top dress? I'm gonna read more about it and decide later today.

to use or not to use the redwood mulch.

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you could mix the 30% pearlite to 70% ewc. a 1-2 inch layer is fine just put it right on top. then top that with the mulch bark, just put enough down to LOOSELY cover the soil. it will not affect your soil negatively in any way as long as it is just mulch, no colors added or anything added to it. the mulch will slow evaporation from your soil.

I know you said this is your first organic grow (or first grow ever?). did you grow from bottles before this? I did. I'm currently in the mix of switching all my soil to living soil. I have about a dozen plants that i will be feeding the vegamatrix line because i didn't have time to let a soil cook for 5 weeks. So i bought the vegamatrix to finish them out because it is WAY cleaner than the fuckin age old organics i was on before. here i thought i was growing organically with bottles of products with "organic" in the name, but are in fact not organic in their composition. imo, it might as well be called hydroponic anyway because there is nothing living in the soil when products like that are applied lol. plant relies solely on the operator, same as hydro!

i've been reading my ass to sleep (literally) from reading all i can about living soil and how it works, and what growers are using for cannabis specifically. fortunately for me i took a few classes during my time in the community college about botany and soil management. so that made this a lot easier for me to dive into. i learned about living organic soil from trying to raise a better vegetable garden and stumbled upon John Kohler on YouTube. I then had the lightbulb and realized i could apply living soil to my cannabis too!! and then i found the organic section on ROI and realized there is a whole community of great people, with lots of knowledge to share. this place definitely sped up the curve for my learning experience with living soil

check out the books: TLO by the rev, teaming with microbes, teaming with nutrients, worms eat my garbage. lots of good stuff just in those titles.

ShLUbY said:

you can mix a few amendments into the EWC if you want to, but you should have LOADS of amendments in your soil from the recipe you posted, so i feel that this would be redundant. and also if you are going to be using guanos, be careful with the stuff, can give you nasty eye infections and shit from that stuff. plus the mining of guanos destroys bat habitat and there are far better choices than the guanos out there, IMO. this is why i feel you just need the microbe tea (ACT), you already have lots of EWC in your mix, i feel it just needs a boost from the tea. remember you are not making a nutrient tea, you are making the tea for the microbes. i feel your soil has plenty in the bank as far a nutrients go. your VERY SLIGHT deficiency is not in a stage to panic about lol.

lots of people are using mulch in living soil, but it's not necessary. i will be using it for sure when i get my no till pots going, living mulch and non living (straw, bark, ect.) just to see what works best for me. remember what works for some doesn't always work for other because we all have our own little touches when it comes to things. that's why these forums can be helpful (and confusing) at covering all the angles lol. KISS, keep it stupid simple. ACT is stupid simple haha.

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well put ShLuby!
I only use the crab, neam and DE in my top dress/mulch layer for pest prevention. works wonders. not much getting down to plants until after i recycle my mix. when the mulch and everything gets mixed back in for next round. this has worked for me,But as you said may not work for others. But i get away with not haveing to reammend until round 3 or 4. just fresh compost and airation each round.

ShLUbY said:

you could mix the 30% pearlite to 70% ewc. a 1-2 inch layer is fine just put it right on top. then top that with the mulch bark, just put enough down to LOOSELY cover the soil. it will not affect your soil negatively in any way as long as it is just mulch, no colors added or anything added to it. the mulch will slow evaporation from your soil.

I know you said this is your first organic grow (or first grow ever?). did you grow from bottles before this? I did. I'm currently in the mix of switching all my soil to living soil. I have about a dozen plants that i will be feeding the vegamatrix line because i didn't have time to let a soil cook for 5 weeks. So i bought the vegamatrix to finish them out because it is WAY cleaner than the fuckin age old organics i was on before. here i thought i was growing organically with bottles of products with "organic" in the name, but are in fact not organic in their composition. imo, it might as well be called hydroponic anyway because there is nothing living in the soil when products like that are applied lol. plant relies solely on the operator, same as hydro!

i've been reading my ass to sleep (literally) from reading all i can about living soil and how it works, and what growers are using for cannabis specifically. fortunately for me i took a few classes during my time in the community college about botany and soil management. so that made this a lot easier for me to dive into. i learned about living organic soil from trying to raise a better vegetable garden and stumbled upon John Kohler on YouTube. I then had the lightbulb and realized i could apply living soil to my cannabis too!! and then i found the organic section on ROI and realized there is a whole community of great people, with lots of knowledge to share. this place definitely sped up the curve for my learning experience with living soil

check out the books: TLO by the rev, teaming with microbes, teaming with nutrients, worms eat my garbage. lots of good stuff just in those titles.

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does red wood contain tannin? not sure but i know you want to watch out for that stuff.