Earth Juice Natural PH Up - how might it impact the benefiscial microbes?

oh...ph was red??..so you call a pool tester that cant get any closer than a .5 a ph tester. those arent anywhere near accurate. might help in a pinch to get by.,...and you used wrong colour anyways...so blame using ph on oyur mistake?. it should be more yellowish green. not red. that way to low.
and what the heck is RO soil and nutes...we make all nutes with RO water....lol
every medium bennefits from ph not just soil..soiless as well and coco and rockwool and on and on.
no i wouldnt say your some special exception. just missinformed by bad forum info or missunderstood info. and another with no facts to back anything. pictures of a plant isnt fact. its a picture and shows you may have a nice camera is all
you guys are all so scared of the solution but yet its in every bottle you use.

pickmybud said:

Thank you everyone for your responses. Yet another fine example of the age-old debate as to whether one should PH adjust their organice nutrients or not.

Icemud - I use EJ as well and would LOVE to not have to bubble into a tea every single time I feed. Do you just "mix and feed" the way the company suggests? When I do that the PH of the mix drops to 4.0-ish and that scare the heck out of me so I bubble into a tea to get it in range (6.5 +/-). I am starting a new grow soon and may try that method on one of the plants to see how it goes. Any words of knowledge regarding how often you feed, whether you go strong or light in your mix, etc?

I am also going to try a few plants with water only - using a slight modified version of subcool's mix.

Thanks again all.

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Hey Pickmybud....When I was using just earthjuice line on my last grow, I was bubbling for 2 days and the ph would come up from around 4ph to around 6.5ph....but now that I am using earthjuice with general organics nutrients, I've found If I dont mix and use right away, the mix becomes sour quick....So now I mix my nutrients, and feed right away, with only about a 1/2 hour of bubbling to raise oxygen levels in water...ph at time of feeding is 4PH...

Cannabisworks said:

ice mud it dont matter what your using i can see you dont even know what is in nutes as you are using about 60% all the same and payin for sugar in water for nothing. you obvu=ios are just doin what saleman tell you in a store..no offence most do.
by the way your crop isnt organic

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Cannabis...honestly bro...you should check out my full line and tell me what is not organic...lets see..

Earthjuice (grow, bloom, metak, catalyst, micro) ORGANIC
General ORGANICS BioWeed (cold pressed algae), BioRoot, Cal/Mag ALL THREE ORGANIC
Advanced Nutrients: liquid carbo load, rhino skin, H2 (humic acid) and F1 (fulvic acid) ALL ORGANIC
Organic Unsulfured Molassas... ORGANIC

So what out of this list is not organic...even my pest treatments are ORGANIC with use of hotpeppers, peppermint tea and neem oil.... and BTi is organic too...
You seem to think you know a lot, but your falling short my bro... If you haven't grown organic and do not understand it, don't comment on it...

and by the way...I do all of my own research before purchasing any nutrients....all of my purchases have been based off actual "shoot off's" and test results and organic growing forums as well as weeks or in debth studies on scientific abstracts....

Its cool you don't know it all, but keep your arrogance to yourself...

I use Earth Juice's line of PH Up and PH Down. I am a 100% organic grower.

You do not have to use PH up or down when going organic, the soil adjusts itself. However, it is beneficial to amend with lime.

I use PH +/- if any of my water mixtures are 5.5 or below. If they are, I adjust to 6.0 Ph. This encourages the soil to slowly raise the ph up to 7 over time, which allows the plant excellent nutrient uptake in all the ph spectrum.

You dont have to do this(ph your water), however I have noticed that if I do this it increases my rate of growth, markedly so. at the core of it, it is basically 'speeding up' the ph adjustment so the nutrients can be bent into a usable form for the plant, instead of making the plant/soil adjust over a longer period of time.

But, like others have stated, you can do fine without it. My preference is to ballpark it to about 6 and let the soil do the rest. It is much easier for the soil to adjust from a 6 and have immediate nutrient uptake compared to a starting ph of 4(and little to no nutrient uptake happens in the 4-6 ph range). Just my two cents, and I have great success in my grows.

Actually, click my link to see an all organic DJ Short Blueberry Grow, one of the fussier and more difficult plants to grow in cannabis geneology.

nah dood those are organic based..ive made them in my past work...lol real label buddy. says exact as my synthetics do. the organic source is gone once it was made to a food in the bottle. look at word derived all over it. then the final ellements are all the same as a salt was added to make it a faster available food other wise real organic takes months and months to break down.

nothing self adjusts as you guys think. left alone outdoor in nature is what they talk about. not in our homes with us abusing it by feeding adn heat and everything we do. to may take the info out of context
ive tested the diff in lavs and it shows plain as day.... ph improves food processing of foods for the plant in all and any mediums...and food. not saying its a must...just it improves this. as does using food in general. why feed/. a plant makes its own food right. but we feed to releive the work load so it can do more of other proceses...same goes for ph the food. why make the plant work harder than is needed to get at the food and waste enegry on something we can do for it

ive yet to still see any factual info to back the no ph info...tons on the bennefits but only word of mouth not to. why do so many believe word of mouth over factual science...ok you take the words of others growers that also dont know all about foods.


i havent grown organic???..lol...funny...i have worked in the nute bizz and i make what you use or have made and your telling me you know more whats in it or how to use than makers of nutes???realy...by the way dont believe whats on labels.


and right above your sayin no need t ph but yet you admit the noticable improvements when you do...lol...what???...and im not saying its a must. and some foods will fall in the right ph zone depending on our water sources. our water plays the hugest role in what and how much ph is needed to hold the final numbers stable. food isnt avail at 4 bud. its getting no food then. this is why i say ph to a correct number and make sure it holds there. most dont see a use for ph as they dont do it right like in here....you dont want swing in ph. can lock out doing that and it deffinalty hinders food uptakes

Cannabisworks, I dont know if you are directing that at me..but it seems as such. There is no need to "fluff" yourself up and say you make nutrients etc, as the context in which you speak and the manner in which you address others is assuredly enough information for me to understand the source of which I am dealing.

"and right above your sayin no need t ph but yet you admit the noticable improvements when you do...lol...what???...and im not saying its a must"
-Um, yes, that is what I am saying. You dont need to ph, the soil will adjust itself. But if you assist it to put the ph range back into the usable spectrum of a plant, it will assist and increase the rate of growth. Why do I find me repeating myself?

"nothing self adjusts as you guys think."
-Please read "Teeming with Microbes".

"ph improves food processing of foods for the plant in all and any mediums"
-You are right here. More than improving it, a proper potential Hydrogen spectrum is needed for plant life processes to actually happen. With potential Hydorgen above 7 or below 6 in soil based mediums with Cannabis, it will simply not survive. Alas, you can"improve" nutrient uptake by "assisting" pH ranges to get within the usable area of the Cannabis plant.

It is important to note right here that pH is not the only determining factor in addressing organics. The presence of beneficial microbes, be it fungal, bacterial, nematodes, worms, bugs and more all have a mitigating factor on overall soil web activity. This all has a determining and sometimes both limiting or enhancing effects on root uptake, leverage and stress. Furthermore, most understood knowledge is based on current theory.

Other forms of thought vary wildly, even to ideas of the plant directly controlling the soil, by releasing hormones and other chemicals to mitigate it's own nutrient uptake, leverage, growth and other exhibiting factors.

Point is, everything is theory. What works for you, works for you....its always in the results. But if you see someone else's results as better than yours, I suggest you keep your tongue still and your eyes and ears open and eager.

ok i agree with alot you say just a bit off is all. yes the microbes adjust medium but not fast. this is why we dont burn with organics or based. slow...when we ph its avail faster at better rates. just as you agreed.
i dont get it...you agree with about everything but say dont do it....lol. you agree on its bennefit then why not use it???..l.makes no sence
all the fact stuff on how the bennies and stuff work is fact...yes. but it isnt as you thin it is. if all this is so slow being orgtanic then the whole plant process is slowed down thus makes less bud and less potency as it will never reach max potential..all my years the max is what i thought we where after.

theres a whole world that effects our ph. room conditions and more. the whole things is a sorta linked web. we waste tons on fake nutes but we wont buy ph and gaurtantee a bennefit. just makes no sence.
no bud wasnt to fluff myself up. i dont work for anyone anymore..retarded..i mean retired. and ill be forst to admitt i know shit all. stuff is so ever changing as it has been illegal to test on this actual plant for many many years till now so there is lots of new science now that we can test on the actiual plant. in the past they used hops as its closest related but now its seen its not that close. for its needs. flower cycle is same. im just trying to hep guys save and not be conned by those i used to work for. there is such a scam in foods it makes me sick tyo see guys waste money. nobody has to use ph. im not freeking cause they dont. it just makes no sence when its been proven over and over it helps but were being told dont do it or its not needed. lots isnt NEEDED but we use it.


i may seem i get wound up in posts but im mellow. just a tad to passionate about our plant maybe and it burns me to see wasted money and handed over to greedy nutrient companies

ive been saying this since foirst post...never said ever once its a must...always trying to show its a huge bennefit. sure no ph needed if the final number is in range to what we want. i can do with my sythnetics to. nothing to do with type of food. every water source is diff and so is final number and amount of ph in each bottle. you already have ph in the bottle so whats the deal on final adjustments after...ya the soil does it if its kept perfect. not to many do. they may think they do
your organic based not true organic. an omri stamp means nothing. they dont even test them.

I am not arguing your position. I wasn't really a part of anything you had to say, but you seemingly jumped on me pretty quickly to rifle off/argue some words when you wouldve realized that I was not even fighting with you in the first place.

You seemed extremely quick to say that I was wrong or ill-informed, without even realizing that we were in agreement with most everything. Furthermore, you seem more interested in distorting what people are saying here in order to pick a fight, while harboring behind a weak statement that your "only trying to help people not get screwed by expensive nute companies"...because you used to work for them.

Alas, I hope you can understand that this forum is a welcoming place, full of potheads, that come here to share information and help eachother out. When you try and pick fights or flame threads, it is the antithesis to the cannabis movement, this forum, and a stain on how we should be conducting ourselves as a friendly community.

Im done with this thread, but, btw:

OMRI is a label to me, and I dont read labels. Therefore, it means nothing to me.
I consider myself as organic as I can make it, being indoors. Is there anything truly 100% organic indoors? No, but we try to recreate that as best we can.

If naturally occurring soil amendments are not organic, I do not know what is. Oh yeah, my indoor light isn't organic either. So I guess I am 99% then. ROFL.

my text is miss taken some times. i didnt mean it to look as an arguement..i can appologize for that...guilty of it now n then. was just bad timming with others.
i kno0w what forums are for. i own one. i thought i was here trying to educate but some refuse to listen to newer info. seems to be same small crew going thread to threrad spilling muths or missconceptions of info and i just want to clear a few things up to help improve guys grows. and when i get name calling by some or ignorant child comments or personal diggs i tend to deffend myself on those. thought i had that right.
you donbt get what i meant by non organic. it was as a source.,..,from the grouhnd. a plant caqnt eat rocks and minerals like that. its is processed as our food is. after it isnt a full organic item oince we put it in the bottle. we need 17% organic content to get the stamp is all. and that will be called organic on a shelf. to me 17 is less than the sythetic content so to me i dpont call iot true orgainc. is why its called organic based. ya not many are true organic indoor.
ya omri is a money grab. and there are diff ratings within them. omri listed and certified. most will stamp with a just a letter claiming what is in it and may not even be.

Cannabisworks said:

well from a maker of nutes ph doesnt harm the bennies. the bennies give off ph up or down depending if its day or night and if they feed or rest.
most solutions we buy in the store arent even organic anyways. most are organic based. or the ph in them would be way low. the reason people thought they dont need to ph organics is because a plant cant eat the organic form food yet. so slowly the microbes eat this food and shit it back out in a food form. htis is hwy no burns as this is such a slow process. some real organics arent avail for months after. dont be fooled by the omri stamp. means nothing. a true organic food is real low like 3 ph and if you didnt use ph up your plant would be dead by morning.
the microbes to help with the ph buffering as it goes by what ellement of food they ate and form of poop that came out and this all regulates it. if you ph then there is more food available sooner and easier for the whole process thus makinbg you need less food to get the same end result so its saving the grower money. sure you dont have to use ph. as its sucjh a slow process so wont burn. but it sure makes fir a better grow.
ive yet to see any facts from a rep place that says nobody needs ph in organics. ive asked and asked for it but havent seen any yet. but yet tons of whole web site devoted to just this alone

Click to expand...

Man i have been looking and looking for this answer for the last 3 months. I have read Botany text books, countless marijuana horticulture books, and stuff like Teaming With Microbes. So much so that i have been convinced Organic is the way to go with out doubt. PH was my last concern in the matter...

I am now using Bio Canna (not because of OMRI stamp but because of Soma's advise in his book Growing Organic Marijuana Soma Stye) with the additives Rhyzo&cannazyme +the bio boost. I use some un-organic additives because unless its an EDTA chelated salt i dont believe it will kill beneficials.

So my last concern was the PH, a brand called Safer makes an organic up&down that comes in a bottle just like all of the canna bottles, or i was thinking of Earth Juice. I will always PH my nutes, using some sort of up or down. Unless your collecting rain water and using a "just water technique" like Subcools super soil then you need to PH your water.

@Cannabisworks

I see you just registered. What was your old screen name? The one you used before you (apparently) got banned for trolling?

It only took reading a few of your posts to recognize you.

Wet

ive never been banned in my life buddy. not here nor any other site. ive left many but never booted....who`ss the troll?? to need to snoop as to when i registered...so?? this is about growing not personal info.

organic ph is actualy postassium bicarbonate. buy that and its a 10th the cost as the shop charges but yet its same exact stuff. they buy in big sacks and break down to bottle it. if most know what ph actualy is its in all of our bottles of nutes or the food would be like 2ph. and its not, its how the final mix is buffered at the manufacurer...ph is fine with bennies. i get webs on roots here with an outbreak using to much now n then and i use ph every single time...as its needed. only thing you need to relay watch is your water sources. and no baking soda..sodium bicarbonate. chlorine and chloramines will kill them...look on a bottle of ph solution...then checlkk your bottles to see if you see same names...bet most do if they told the truth on the ph as to what they used for the acid

Here is some additional information from an article by Leslie Cooperband at the University of Wisconsin and information supporting the fact that you do NOT need to PH adjust your ORGANIC feedings....

http://www.cias.wisc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/soilorgmtr.pdf

Quoted from page "Soil pH buffering capacity......
Organic matter has the ability to moderate major
changes in the soil pH. Soil pH is a measure of acidity
or alkalinity as determined by the amount of positively
charged hydrogen (H+) ions in the soil solution.
Organic matter buffers the soil against major swings in
pH by either taking up or releasing H+ into the soil
solution, making the concentration of soil solution H+
more constant. The result is a stable pH close to neutral
or suitable for the specific crop to be grown.
The blue color in hydrangea flowers is a classic example
of buffering pH with organic matter. The blue
color results from plants taking up available aluminum
from the soil under low pH or acid conditions. High
pH or alkaline soils don’t have enough available
aluminum to turn the hydrangea flowers blue, and their
resultant color is either pink or white. When organic
matter is added to alkaline soil, it grabs or chelates the
aluminum and pulls it into the soil solution in a form
that hydrangea plants can take it up. And then their
flowers turn blue!"

Just for those that need reputable proof that Organic's do not need to be PH adjusted..

these are about three weeks in just transfered again the four on the Right are using Canna CoCo nutrients and 3 have 100% coir one is 100% HP Pro mix
the 4 on the left are in varieing amounts of HP Pro Mix and RO 707, i havent PH anything at all other then to take and record reading for PPM charts and log

and they look fine

think the NEED to pH was settled long ago. helps but not needed. break down is slow so wont harm it

nice info the on the colours for the flowers. thx

Let me add that I am in the middle of my first "liquid organic" grow with the EJ line in ProMix HP(only amendment was worm castings). I can attest that dumping in a solution with a pH of 3.5-5 WILL cause lockout! I thought I could rely on the "herd" to make it right, but apparently at such a low pH they have a tough time doing their job, especially in a close to stock ProMix HP. If I bubble it and get pH up 7.5 it seem to do better. I would also bring that pH 7.5 down to 6ish with more nutes, or add Potassium Silicate to bring it up closer to 5(hard to get over 5 even after dumping in lots of Silica). When the pH was closest to 6 going in, the plants seemed to really like it. I'm also now showing slight signs of nitrogen overdose since I've stabilized the pH and it's all become available.

Talking to some people, it would appear stock ProMix HP and EJ should be pH adjusted for max results. Some people say "liquid organic" fertilizers aren't the same as true organics where you set up your soil in advance with nutes, and then just add water and feed the herd during the grow. When using liquid nutes, especially in a "soil-less" medium, pH adjusting becomes more necessary, and closer to 6 seems to be best.

I feel if you heavily amend ProMix with castings, manure, compost and the such, then maybe EJ in ProMix might not be so pH sensitive.

I think the confusion on here is when people mix up true organics (think outdoor garden just add water ), with new school liquid "organics" in soil-less mediums which seem to require closer attention to pH.

Just my .2

what we do indoor isnt organic at all if its from a bottle. organic based. i look on labels on back side and they all say same ellements as my synthetics. and once its in the bud we smoke its all the sasme form anyways. one is easier past through the roots membranses to the inside is all.

all the ph buffering has been way way mssunderstood by lots. nowhere in deffinitions does it say dont ph. says it resists. means if you dont fuck with it then its fine. as soon as you add anything it will move and the buffering begins. the worse you are on it the less life this buffering has, by not helping it and using ph is being hard on its capabilities. besides being lazzy

and dont fall for some of the research out by organic growers. its not run like we run a reg grow. they will isolate something to show it works, but in real life and other factors invoived that theory is out the window. its called sales pitch..lol

toostonedto said:

Let me add that I am in the middle of my first "liquid organic" grow with the EJ line in ProMix HP(only amendment was worm castings). I can attest that dumping in a solution with a pH of 3.5-5 WILL cause lockout! I thought I could rely on the "herd" to make it right, but apparently at such a low pH they have a tough time doing their job, especially in a close to stock ProMix HP. If I bubble it and get pH up 7.5 it seem to do better. I would also bring that pH 7.5 down to 6ish with more nutes, or add Potassium Silicate to bring it up closer to 5(hard to get over 5 even after dumping in lots of Silica). When the pH was closest to 6 going in, the plants seemed to really like it. I'm also now showing slight signs of nitrogen overdose since I've stabilized the pH and it's all become available.

Talking to some people, it would appear stock ProMix HP and EJ should be pH adjusted for max results. Some people say "liquid organic" fertilizers aren't the same as true organics where you set up your soil in advance with nutes, and then just add water and feed the herd during the grow. When using liquid nutes, especially in a "soil-less" medium, pH adjusting becomes more necessary, and closer to 6 seems to be best.

I feel if you heavily amend ProMix with castings, manure, compost and the such, then maybe EJ in ProMix might not be so pH sensitive.

I think the confusion on here is when people mix up true organics (think outdoor garden just add water ), with new school liquid "organics" in soil-less mediums which seem to require closer attention to pH.

Just my .2

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You should probably let the EJ brew a tad bit, and youll watch your pH levels balance off nicely.

Of course a 3.5pH is going to rock your plants...if you gave the EJ some time to settle out, it would be closer to 6.5 than 3.5.

But EJ should only be used for supplmentation if absolutely needed. Like cannabisworks said, bottles arent exactly organic.

Feed a concentrate buffet of soil amendments with a focus on soil food web microherd development and have a better time growing.