Economic growth more likely when wealth distributed to poor instead of rich

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
"Having money from economic growth flow to poor people rather than the rich feeds into a lift in the rate of economic growth and lower unemployment. Conversely, as income inequality increases, the potential for economic growth is constrained.

The economic case for maintaining a progressive income tax structure and targeting welfare payments to those most in need is overwhelming.

The issue can be illustrated through a simple stylised example which outlines how a higher cash flow to the poorest is growth enhancing while a higher cash flow to the rich boosts savings, but keeps economic growth lower.

Take a situation where there is a $1bn addition to the economy via growth. That $1bn can be distributed in many different ways but let’s initially assume the 10 richest people in Australia each receive all of that gain, with $100m going to each person.

According to the BRW Rich list, the tenth richest person in Australia has wealth of $2.65bn while the richest, Gina Rinehart, has more than $14bn. Economic theory and research suggests that the extra $100m to each of these uber wealthy people would be almost totally be absorbed into their wealth and there would be only a very small increase in economic activity as a result.

According to research from the Brookings Institution and the Reserve Bank of Australia, the marginal propensity to consume of high-income earners is substantially less than for low-income earners. In other words, poorer people are likely to spend the bulk of any extra income while the wealthy are more likely to save it.

Looked at another way, would Gina Rinehart, Anthony Pratt or Harry Triguboff increase their spending over and above their current consumption patterns if their income had a one off boost of $100m? The answer is an overwhelming no. More likely the extra $100m would merely find its way into their assets and wealth. Any impact on the macro-economy as a result would be small.

An alternative is distributing the $1bn by allocating $1,000 to each of the poorest one million people via a $20 a week tax cut or benefit increase. In this scenario, there is a strong probability the vast bulk of the $1bn would be spent to improve their living standards. Low-income earners are unlikely to save or invest the extra income.

Now think of how the different distribution of the $1bn will affect the economy and jobs.

If the money finds its way to those on low incomes, there will inevitably be higher aggregate spending, more jobs and quite simply a stronger economy. And if the income distribution continues to be skewed to those on low incomes, there will be a lift in the growth potential of the economy. Unemployment would be structurally lower and there would be a self-supporting cycle of stronger activity as a result.

In most sober analyses of income distribution, no one is suggesting governments have a policy framework to crunch the rich and blindly give the money to the poor. Rather, the idea of greater income equality and a more even distribution of wealth reiterates the importance of a progressive income tax structure. It also highlights the economically sensible nature of targeted welfare assistance to those on lower incomes and a tightening of payments away from high income earners.

This is where the current tax breaks to very wealthy Australian superannuants and the business sector need to be radically overhauled.

Not only will changing policies in these areas enhance economic growth and see a structural lowering in the unemployment rate, they have the other benefit of being fair, decent and compassionate.

Let’s hope the next election covers the issues of income inequality and how redistribution is such a vital element for growth."

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/04/better-economic-growth-when-wealth-distributed-to-poor-instead-of-rich?CMP=soc_567

Seems pretty obvious
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
"Are there any counter arguments to this, where increasing the wealth of the super rich is actually beneficial to the economy?
I can potentially see the use of huge sums of money to invest in companies being a good thing. But the super wealthy already have huge sums of money, and in general don't spend vast sums on new businesses. They look for traditional return on investment with already successful companies.

I'm coming at this from a UK point of view where there is a rhetoric that welfare benefits need to be cut in order to balance the books without a considerable effort to recover money from the super rich." -myrtob1445
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"The argument would be that they'll create jobs with the extra money and invest in their business. But the reality is that this doesn't make sense. Without extra demand, there is no point in hiring more workers as workers are an investment and even though there might be extra money, if a worker won't bring in more money in terms of revenue there won't be any hiring. And if a business is in position to expand, they will. They'll get a loan of go out of pocket. They won't need a tax cut to do it and if they do, the business shouldn't really be expanding in the first place.

Might there be SOME benefit to increasing the wealth of the super rich along those lines? Maybe. But it's a maybe at best and the positive effects of increasing the wealth of the lower classes soars above the other way around." -ImAnIdeaMan
 

AlecTheGardener

Well-Known Member
Wealthy people can only buy so much toothpaste before they have a lifetime supply, same goes for shoes. Once you have your lifetime supply your money tends to sit in the bank or get abused in the market.

SOME people start businesses, most do not.

Money spread about is ultimately a good thing.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Wealth is not finite, therefore the idea of redistribution of the existing wealth as THE solution, leaves some variables unconsidered.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Wealth is not finite, therefore the idea of redistribution of the existing wealth as THE solution, leaves some variables unconsidered.
All of the growth goes to the rich, wealth being finite or not is irrelevant when it all goes to the top regardless. They put it in banks or otherwise financially sound ROI's, not creating new businesses, not hiring new employees or improving the working conditions of the existing ones
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
All of the growth goes to the rich, wealth being finite or not is irrelevant when it all goes to the top regardless. They put it in banks or otherwise financially sound ROI's, not creating new businesses, not hiring new employees or improving the working conditions of the existing ones
Keep polishing the government lamp and hoping a different genie will come out is circular.

If government didn't regulate so heavily, people could start their own businesses and create more realistic and natural markets. Then the money would flow to whomever provided good service rather than a protected class. LESS regulation and fewer barriers to entry in a given market can accomplish that.

You see the problem, fail to see the solution grass hopper.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
All of the growth goes to the rich, wealth being finite or not is irrelevant when it all goes to the top regardless. They put it in banks or otherwise financially sound ROI's, not creating new businesses, not hiring new employees or improving the working conditions of the existing ones
First, there is no limit to wealth or we would have hit it long ago. The idea that wealth is zero sum is as laughable as saying that agriculture can't grow in production from year to year.

Second, if the wealth goes to the rich they do get something; POWER. And they use it to cement themselves as the elite, which means magnifying income inequality AND making it harder for others to stream enough to join them. Does that scenario fit the facts? I think it does.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
If government didn't regulate so heavily, people could start their own businesses and create more realistic and natural markets. Then the money would flow to whomever provided good service rather than a protected class. LESS regulation and fewer barriers to entry in a given market can accomplish that.
Where is the evidence that overregulation is the primary cause of income inequality? Where is the evidence that removing said regulations will decrease income inequality?

Hard, scientific evidence. Where is it?
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Let's say that same billion dollars was given to the richest million Australians, only at the poor person's rate of a thousand dollars each. I think we can all agree that the economic activity that would stimulate would be far more than giving hundred million dollar sums out.

Conversely, creating ten new hundred-millionaires out of the ten poorest Australians would create less of a boost to the economy than wider distribution would.

In other words, it's time the money enjoyed wider distribution, that is to say, less income inequality- and of course the policies that aggravate it.
 
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ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Where is the evidence that overregulation is the primary cause of income inequality? Where is the evidence that removing said regulations will decrease income inequality?

Hard, scientific evidence. Where is it?
Over regulation in order to protect entrenched industries to be included? LOL
 

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
The problem is, even if you gave ALL the rich people's money to the poor, they'd be poor again after a while.

What you need is comprehensive free education for every child, basic life skills could be a module with budgeting, etc included.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Where is the evidence that overregulation is the primary cause of income inequality? Where is the evidence that removing said regulations will decrease income inequality?

Hard, scientific evidence. Where is it?
Equal opportunity is not the same as equal result.

If you want income equality, just continue believing your gun is the best method. If you want equal opportunity, put your gun down and let people achieve what they can and what they will.

Your questions veer off into the bushes as if the bushes are a valid place to go.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
The problem is, even if you gave ALL the rich people's money to the poor, they'd be poor again after a while.

What you need is comprehensive free education for every child, basic life skills could be a module with budgeting, etc included.
This is yet another completely outdated and disproved trope, that all poor people are bad with money and that all rich people are good with it.

I call BULLSHIT on your stated assertion and demand proof!

And while we're at it, why NOT insist that every child of our nation be given the very best education possible?
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Equal opportunity is not the same as equal result.

If you want income equality, just continue believing your gun is the best method. If you want equal opportunity, put your gun down and let people achieve what they can and what they will.

Your questions veer off into the bushes as if the bushes are a valid place to go.
Where is your evidence to back up your claim? That overregulation is the problem?
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Where is your evidence to back up your claim? That overregulation is the problem?
I'm going to warn you, I may not engage in a full on lesson, I'm enjoying an afternoon baking session, so I'll just tease you a little.

Housing costs are so high why?

Housing costs are a significant portion of low income peoples total income. What if housing wasn't so heavily regulated, would the prices drop?
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
This is yet another completely outdated and disproved trope, that all poor people are bad with money and that all rich people are good with it.

I call BULLSHIT on your stated assertion and demand proof!

And while we're at it, why NOT insist that every child of our nation be given the very best education possible?
In order to accomplish your goal first you assume that the "best education" is a standard one size fits all as determined by a central authority, rather than the student and / or parent.

Then you think you can accomplish this via coercion based funding. How is it that the "best" education, if it is SO good, would still be reliant on forcing people to fund it?
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
I'm going to warn you, I may not engage in a full on lesson, I'm enjoying an afternoon baking session, so I'll just tease you a little.

Housing costs are so high why?

Housing costs are a significant portion of low income peoples total income. What if housing wasn't so heavily regulated, would the prices drop?
Not interested in this

I want actual evidence, scientific evidence, numbers, data, graphs, anything. Show me how less regulations will lead to decreased income inequality
 

nitro harley

Well-Known Member
Keep polishing the government lamp and hoping a different genie will come out is circular.

If government didn't regulate so heavily, people could start their own businesses and create more realistic and natural markets. Then the money would flow to whomever provided good service rather than a protected class. LESS regulation and fewer barriers to entry in a given market can accomplish that.

You see the problem, fail to see the solution grass hopper.
Hey Rob.

Somebody should let the liberals know about all the empty store fronts that are there waiting for one of them to get off there ass and make something of their selves.

For some funny reason I think they are waiting for a conservative to hire them while they bitch about how hard everything is. imo
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Not interest ed in this

I want actual evidence, scientific evidence, numbers, data, graphs, anything. Show me how less regulations will lead to decreased income inequality
Yes, I am being a smug know it all, not to be rude, but you're in over your head in a free stylin' conversation on economics with me. ,

If housing costs increase due to regulation (they do) , it is a factor. Also if you understood the effect on supply and demand that regulations have on a given market we could have a better conversation.

Also, if income equality is your goal rather than equality of opportunity to achieve, I'm afraid I can't help you as your love of the gun as a valid means will forever skew your point of view, since you view immoral means as somehow valid when the government is involved.

I'm gonna bow out of this and wait until you grow some frog legs tadpole. Happy swimming.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Hey Rob.

Somebody should let the liberals know about all the empty store fronts that are there waiting for one of them to get off there ass and make something of their selves.

For some funny reason I think they are waiting for a conservative to hire them while they bitch about how hard everything is. imo
Economic growth more likely when wealth distributed to poor instead of rich

Common sense eludes you
 
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