emergency flushing, soil ph issue

cozz

cozz

Well-Known Member
hi, posted last week with some pics, put one up with this post, was sure its calcium def/lock out,
outline is ive 10 plants in 15 litre pots in plant magic soil supreme, using oldtimers bloom, all going ok then noticed rust etc on a few leaves older fans etc, started to get worse now pretty much all are showing the same, im week 5-6 of flower and in a panic, i know testing run off isnt a exact science, but im putting in 15 litres 6.5 phed water and its running out about 5-5.3 which would account for the lock outs
now ive never had to flush before but obviously have read up on it, my problem is some say 4x the pot size, well that works out at 600 litres for me!! i have not got enough water butts lol,so am worried about the chlorine etc, so my thoughts are as im gonna lose my micro herd ect anyway can i use straight tap water then for the last few litres use phed water? and from a bit of reasearch ive found out quite a few people are experiencing the same with the bloom nutes aparently they have changed the formula!!!! (thanks a fukin bunch plant magic) so my plan is to then top dress with fresh soil and add some mollases and drop back to bio bizz, ive never swapped bloom nutes half way through flower though any one got any advice on that? im really at a loss with it all ive never really had theese issues before so feel like a complete newb out of my comfort zone and at witts end!!! any opinions will be a help cheers
 

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cozz

cozz

Well-Known Member
i apreciate the shout, but i normally let the "soil shrink" from the edges and only water say 2 times a week on average, i look for the leaves to go from the praying type of position to a slight wilt, obviously it changes as needed but have done it that way for a while with no real problems, but out of intrest and as i am far far far away from getting it all right, what gives you the feeling that its overwatered?
 

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marquezmurder

marquezmurder

Well-Known Member
I have had a problem all over my plant that looked similar to yours at one time. IF your root mass has not reached the bottom, you could be killing the roots without proper drainage. Roots need oxygen to cluster and grow. Stagnant water will only cause root rot.
Heres my opinion of what you can do. Check the roots by popping it out of the container. Have some spare soil on stand by,
If the roots are brown, they are dead
If the roots have hit the bottom, Transplant it to a larger size, if its a 3 gallon go to 5g, a 5 to 7 ect. and so on
If you see the divisions or layers in the root mass, your drainage was not adequate.

My problem was root rot and deficiency caused by being root bound. I was also watering with tap water which was causing a buildup of excess minerals. Most tap water is around 150ppm, but what the ppm is you can only find out by requesting a report from the city water department.
My solution was a counter top Reverse osmosis water filter,an air stone in my res, calmag to add back what minerals I want, HM PH meter, HM PPM meter, Calibration solution. And dont let me forget..... I transplanted. I gave that plant an extra week and a half in flower and she turned out great.

Lesson learned, Its easier to control what goes in than what comes out.
 
cozz

cozz

Well-Known Member
Really good info, thanks, I allways pot up to final pots a good week normally 2 before flipping, I have allways waited till I see roots at the bottom, I normally go for 20-25litre pots but have downsized to 15 as I felt I wasn't filling the big ones up if that makes sense, I used to use ro water with cal mag but wanted to go as organic as poss, not making my own, so switched to bio bizz and that was great for a good few years then wanted to try some other range mainly for comparrison, taste etc, and was fed up with the mag def you get with bio bizz with the water round here, I add drainage to my pots and would rather not have to transplant five weeks or so into flower, I hear you about the stagnant water etc but really feel I've got that dialled in, apparently the feed I'm using has changed and the place they source their ingredients has changed so the magnesium isn't being sourced/ delivered to the plants the same way it was, and to be honest that explains why I'm getting the lock out 4-5 week into flower but I can't understand why the ph is so low in the soil, as far as tap water goes i normally leave it for 48 hours and the ph 7 is fine as the buffers are there in the soil to buffer it, as we all know soil buffers down a lot easier then buffering up,I do feed the herd with mollases as I allways have done and am not doing anything different, I haven't really done ph for a couple of years since going more organic and have noticed no difference in yield,or health, but am going to check roots etc like you suggested, and if they are ok then I'll have to try to raise the ph a bit somehow, too late to add dolomite lime to the soil have to think of something though, thanks again it's apreciated
 
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JohnySmith1

JohnySmith1

Well-Known Member
Plant magic is a great soil and nutrients especially for autos, if you use it right. You got to use bio-silicone at half the recommended amount every time you water the plants as soil has naturally low pH as they adding some phosphoric acid for beneficial reasons. Your run-off pH and pH in the soil is two different things, don't make judgement from collected run-off. Soil is relatively hot in nutrients, PPM reader shows over 3000 units. This is why you only give it water with bio-silicon and magne-cal (also root stimulant and catalyst but not necessary) for the first month. PH of the nutrient solution will be at around 9 and you must not correct it ever as if you will start adding acids or hydroxides to nutrient solution it will mess up pH and I can assume, you have been correcting the pH. As you start adding Old timer bloom and silicone, pH of nutrient solution will be at around 6.5-7.
 
marquezmurder

marquezmurder

Well-Known Member
H
cozz said:
Really good info, thanks, I allways pot up to final pots a good week normally 2 before flipping, I have allways waited till I see roots at the bottom, I normally go for 20-25litre pots but have downsized to 15 as I felt I wasn't filling the big ones up if that makes sense, I used to use ro water with cal mag but wanted to go as organic as poss, not making my own, so switched to bio bizz and that was great for a good few years then wanted to try some other range mainly for comparrison, taste etc, and was fed up with the mag def you get with bio bizz with the water round here, I add drainage to my pots and would rather not have to transplant five weeks or so into flower, I hear you about the stagnant water etc but really feel I've got that dialled in, apparently the feed I'm using has changed and the place they source their ingredients has changed so the magnesium isn't being sourced/ delivered to the plants the same way it was, and to be honest that explains why I'm getting the lock out 4-5 week into flower but I can't understand why the ph is so low in the soil, as far as tap water goes i normally leave it for 48 hours and the ph 7 is fine as the buffers are there in the soil to buffer it, as we all know soil buffers down a lot easier then buffering up,I do feed the herd with mollases as I allways have done and am not doing anything different, I haven't really done ph for a couple of years since going more organic and have noticed no difference in yield,or health, but am going to check roots etc like you suggested, and if they are ok then I'll have to try to raise the ph a bit somehow, too late to add dolomite lime to the soil have to think of something though, thanks again it's apreciated
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Im all for the "do what works for ya" approach, but sometimes it fails you because the elements of things have changed(like the nutes and water.) Honestly if your roots look good then top dress it with fishbonemeal,and kelp and let it do its thing
 
cozz

cozz

Well-Known Member
JohnySmith1 said:
Plant magic is a great soil and nutrients especially for autos, if you use it right. You got to use bio-silicone at half the recommended amount every time you water the plants as soil has naturally low pH as they adding some phosphoric acid for beneficial reasons. Your run-off pH and pH in the soil is two different things, don't make judgement from collected run-off. Soil is relatively hot in nutrients, PPM reader shows over 3000 units. This is why you only give it water with bio-silicon and magne-cal (also root stimulant and catalyst but not necessary) for the first month. PH of the nutrient solution will be at around 9 and you must not correct it ever as if you will start adding acids or hydroxides to nutrient solution it will mess up pH and I can assume, you have been correcting the pH. As you start adding Old timer bloom and silicone, pH of nutrient solution will be at around 6.5-7.
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thanks for the reply m8, fully understand with the silicon etc as i pretty much follow the way "oldtimer" himself says on another forum, but i stop silicon on week 3 of bloom, i also agree the soil defo has a low ph, from what i gather its as its peat based it composes over time causing it to rise on the acidic side, i know run off isnt a great indicator but can show a trend over time if you can be bothered lol, you say about correcting the ph well i havent for a couple of years now, as im of the belief that i dont need to using "organic", and ive not suffered either in yeild or health, i dont agree that the soil is hot, nowhere near say bio bizz all mix anyway, its more like a light soil ive found so far, the only other thing ive added from there range is the granuals, ive found them to be great and use them every pot up, my findings tonight have been that my new oldtimers bloom is also showing a ph of 5.5 which im sure is to low? thats at 4ml per litre, i cant compare with my previous grows as i never bothered to take ph reading as all was well, but coupled with the soil being close to that i can now understand why im getting lock out on this run heres a link to a discussion on another site http://www.uk420.com/boards/index.php?s=d40b0982ebc5baefe5fe4e23b5fec2ca&showtopic=357048 it seems im not alone with this, and on another site theres something about there supplyer of one of there ingrediants has changed, which is normal i spose with organic as there has to be variables/tolerence in the way its sourced, i honestly believe my new bottle of bloom has been the issue, from what your saying if ive got it right if i was to keep on with the silicon to the end with the bloom that would rise the ph of the feed to more desireable levells??? i know the chart has been updated to say that you can but most people ive read all stop it before then,
thanks again
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Hmm,,,stop the feed and use plain water with a Ca/Mg added for 7-days (+)...Look for it to stop spreading and then start up the feed at half strength......I might try that....Kinda looks hot/burned and some Ca blocking going on....
With the popularity of MM growing increasing. Some nutrient makers are adjusting their formulations to frustrate MM growers...Corporate unease of their products being associated (rather openly) with MM bothers them......Here in the US it's Scott's products that do this....So you might consider changing your bloom if you feel that is the cause.....The npk of the Old timers sounds fine, but who knows what they changed.
If you have a good healthy herd going,,,,pH of the soil is nothing to worry about.....soil self pH's.

If you are getting bound up about what you add to your feed....simply pH all ingoing to 6.5 and forget about the soil pH.

Doc
 
cozz

cozz

Well-Known Member
Dr. Who said:
Hmm,,,stop the feed and use plain water with a Ca/Mg added for 7-days (+)...Look for it to stop spreading and then start up the feed at half strength......I might try that....Kinda looks hot/burned and some Ca blocking going on....
With the popularity of MM growing increasing. Some nutrient makers are adjusting their formulations to frustrate MM growers...Corporate unease of their products being associated (rather openly) with MM bothers them......Here in the US it's Scott's products that do this....So you might consider changing your bloom if you feel that is the cause.....The npk of the Old timers sounds fine, but who knows what they changed.
If you have a good healthy herd going,,,,pH of the soil is nothing to worry about.....soil self pH's.

If you are getting bound up about what you add to your feed....simply pH all ingoing to 6.5 and forget about the soil pH.

Doc
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i hear ya with the corporate stuff, but pm were like a "man in shed" type of company that had great reputation, i have noticed on their site they are now doing other stuff like strawberry, or salad, tomato, feeds and are branching out so there may be something in what you say, im not gonna bash the company though as even though there are quite a few people having probs, theres still lots of happy customers, and some stuff in there range are great, but the concensus is the oldtimers bloom has changed,
i ended up putting a load of water through them, pita as ive 10 in one place and 10 in another doing the same!!! it is defo progressing so will see today when lights come on, if they look ok then ill do the other 10 aswell, i am getting confused as what to do next as my bloom nute is phing at 5.5 (tried 2 different testers) and the soils about the same, so need to raise it some how, yet in week 5-6 flower so dont think lime will help, do you think cal-mag would raise the ph a bit, as no matter how much i make available if the rootzone is off surely at that ph level it wont be able to take the ca or mg up?? perhaps foiler feed? i honestly have no experience with this, must have been lucky before!!! thanks for the input
 
JohnySmith1

JohnySmith1

Well-Known Member
cozz said:
thanks for the reply m8, fully understand with the silicon etc as i pretty much follow the way "oldtimer" himself says on another forum, but i stop silicon on week 3 of bloom, i also agree the soil defo has a low ph, from what i gather its as its peat based it composes over time causing it to rise on the acidic side, i know run off isnt a great indicator but can show a trend over time if you can be bothered lol, you say about correcting the ph well i havent for a couple of years now, as im of the belief that i dont need to using "organic", and ive not suffered either in yeild or health, i dont agree that the soil is hot, nowhere near say bio bizz all mix anyway, its more like a light soil ive found so far, the only other thing ive added from there range is the granuals, ive found them to be great and use them every pot up, my findings tonight have been that my new oldtimers bloom is also showing a ph of 5.5 which im sure is to low? thats at 4ml per litre, i cant compare with my previous grows as i never bothered to take ph reading as all was well, but coupled with the soil being close to that i can now understand why im getting lock out on this run heres a link to a discussion on another site http://www.uk420.com/boards/index.php?s=d40b0982ebc5baefe5fe4e23b5fec2ca&showtopic=357048 it seems im not alone with this, and on another site theres something about there supplyer of one of there ingrediants has changed, which is normal i spose with organic as there has to be variables/tolerence in the way its sourced, i honestly believe my new bottle of bloom has been the issue, from what your saying if ive got it right if i was to keep on with the silicon to the end with the bloom that would rise the ph of the feed to more desireable levells??? i know the chart has been updated to say that you can but most people ive read all stop it before then,
thanks again
Click to expand...
Yes you got it right, you need to use silicone till the end. Have your issues started after you stopped giving it silicon?
Anyway, before using plant magic I have been making allot of enquiries to the manufacturers, and they answered all my questions. This is why I am sure that my info is correct.
I have been using plant magic for about a year and it's the best nutrients and soil from my experience. I am mainly growing autos, this is why for my purpose it is a little hot. Plants experience a little nutrient burn in the first few weeks but then they grow incredibly fast.
In the first month I give my plants only root stimulant, catalyst, bio-silicon and magne-cal each at half recommended dose (for photo period strains I am using full dose). Before you strat using old timer bloom your nutrient solution pH will be at around 9, which is perfect because it's compensating for acidic soil and within a month pH will stabilise. When you start giving old timer bloom together with silicon it will bring the pH of nutrient solution to 6.5-7 which is perfect. Run-off pH reads 5.2-5.3 till harvest so it's not an indicator of pH.
Flushing plants was a bad idea, when growing in organic soil plants are very dependant on beneficial micro organisms and when you flush, you disturb the process.
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Silica is a strong pH adjuster.....When using any Si product,,,,Be sure to pH the ingoing mix to 6.5....

I think your focusing on the pH way to much.....Your in soil, When you water. The pH drops a lot and as the soil dries out, it comes back up.....If you have a strong micro herd or even an average one...The soil self pH's.......So pH'ing soil is hit or miss as you must measure at the exact point in moisture content to be accurate day by day......metering run off is giving you the pH of the run off,,,not the soil pH!!!!

Also, your in soil. You don't "need" to add any Si if the soil was well built......If you distrust it....add some greensand into it before planting......Si is a hydro supplement as very little is supplied by nutrient makers.....

IF I were to use a Si additive to soil feeding,,,,,it would be at 25 - 50% of the dose given by the maker - Again, pH anything with Si in it to 6.5 (for soil) before application.

Doc
 
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