Freedom of Religion - Freedom of Hate

kieahtoka

Well-Known Member
I have been lurking and reading this thread for quite awhile and truthfully I agree with 7x, islam does seem like more of a political system meant for control. If one has to follow a way of life to believe then it is a forced belief caused by the way of life. Religion is supposed to be inner belief which then dictates their lifestyle, not a dictated lifestyle that forces one to believe.
 

Gymshoes

Active Member
In the U.K. we witnessed a sort of train wreck in slow motion regarding the way islamic mosques of hate were "protected" by the government. Their message of murder, violence and hate was ignored, which is in essence a quiet nod of 'yes, carry on' from the government. Look what it got them. In Germany, just the other day, a judge ruled that an islamic woman could not divorce her husband for beating her because the koran prescribes this treatment of women. The woman was a muslim and therefore she subjected herself to this lifestyle voluntarily and the state has no grounds to trespass upon her right to be "just a woman" as it should be according to proper islam. France has bowed to the muslims. Australia has been very "polite" in regards to the way muslims have been viciously attacking people on the street. Why does the world, as a whole, have this obligation to pretend that islam is anything more than a political system with religious attributes?
I have 2 opinions. First, is that cancer of liberalism, political correctness. The second is fear of Islamist retribution.



Does islam even fall into this definition? As I understand it, this definition does not include prescribed violence and killing of people, am I missing something?
While Islam does proscribe suicide and the killing of innocents, it also encourages it from the pulpits of their mosques.


Should liberty be so contorted and so perverted as to consider the methodical destruction of civilization a "religion"?
There is no liberty in Islam. Islam itself means "submission", after all. The whole idea behind the ideology of Islam is to dominate the world. It (Islam) bears a strong resemblence to Nazism.



I for one believe that islam is not a religion, it is a cauldron of hate, a vehicle for the slightly charismatic to deliver the very desperate into fields of dying for no purpose other than to consolidate the world for exploitation; inefficient and totalitarian exploitation at that (as evidenced by the islamic states).
Good for you. You understand.




Does this "religion" deserve our liberty? We are sacrificing our liberty by allowing the practitioners of islam to continue under the guise of religion rather than labeling it for what it is.
Some of us do label it for what it is.

We tread so soft but what does Amendment I say to you?
It says that we are free to criticize Islam and any other religion we choose to.












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Gymshoes

Active Member
Ummm, Hitler didn't have any grandchildren.
Excellent rebuttal...


It is a small percentage of Islamics who are radical, (less than 5%) but when there is a population world wide of 1 Billion, it amounts to a lot.
Actually, some scholars have placed that percentage somewhere between 10 and 20 percent. Add to that number the supporters of the radicals and how high do you think the percentage is? I believe only about 5 to 10 percent of Muslims are of the rational, peaceful, modernized type.


But if we as a nation are going to have freedom of religion, all religions have to be represented equelly.
What do you mean, represented equally? Religion in America is free and unfettered.


But the Bush Administration seems to be going after Muslims like the Nazi's went after the Jews.
Really? Bush himself said Islam is a religion of peace, and that he is only going after those who are destroying that image of Islam.


Now I will say that I do not like organizations like Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Al Queda, but there are a lot of Muslims who are persecuted that do not deserve it.
Name some.
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
Please before I engage in an argument with you.... Please bring a corresponding argument, not snide comments about what others have to say... It seems that you did the same to both sides of the argument.
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
obviously, i think it's ridiculous to say that islam is a religion but if this is fallacious of me show me why.

i have laid out how i can say islam is not a religion. it's a social/political system that uses religious attributes. can we call Nazism a religion or would it make more sense to call it a social/political system?

islam resulted from a desperate culture which was politically inept and socially disorganized. they also hated the Jews and their religion (including early Christianity) but they had grown tired of worshiping various objects and statues which did nothing so islam was born. they neatly tied every aspect of their peoples lives into one package.




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It's funny that you say that, because if you really understand the religion, Islam has a lot in common with Judaism. Even though the Most Islamics and Jews in the Middle East can't stand each other. In the rest of the world they tolerate each other.
 

Gymshoes

Active Member
It's funny that you say that, because if you really understand the religion, Islam has a lot in common with Judaism. Even though the Most Islamics and Jews in the Middle East can't stand each other. In the rest of the world they tolerate each other.
Islam has a lot in common with Judaism and Christianity because Mohammed
"borrowed" so much from them.
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
No, Islam was founded by the so-called prophet Mohammed in the SEVENTH (7th) century.

I stand corrected as to when the date of the start of Islam....
The Ninth Century was when they were the pinnacle of Society and Technology and Science.

If you want to admit it or not, Islam is a religion, although it may not be a religion that has it's shit together, it's a religion none the less.
Personally I think that Mohamed had scribes do his writing, he was illiterate.
 

clekstro

Well-Known Member
Why select Islam out of all religions as the only system of thought out of those considered to be "religious" that demands internal conformity, social regularity and is generally hostile to foreign thought? I think it's interesting that the point can be made that Mohammed basically stole aspects of other religions and incorporated it into--wait, not another religion--but a system, blah blah blah which amounts, in essence to what religion is anyway.

What is the difference between Nazism and (radical) Islam?

It seems to me that there are certain similarities, but that this is such a loaded example that it seems destined never to be accepted. The first is the unification of all [the language]-speaking peoples, the German "Reich" and the Muslim caliphate. It is, of course, extremely militaristic and nationalistic in terms of defending this envisioned state. But it's missing the flagrant racism and genocide, which makes, quite honestly, this example extremely offensive for many tolerant people.

The claim, that simply because certain scholars have suggested this number of 10% is actually higher, does not enable one to soberly pull the exact opposite conclusion out of one's ass: that Islam, on the whole, is radical Islam.

The fact that so many muslims are willing to commit suicide for their liberation has its roots in occupation (political situation), and not in religion per se. This is a difficult distinction, as religion is difficult to distinguish from politics at any level. At any rate, scriptures are used to encourage the aggressiveness necessary for a change in the political atmosphere, where Muslims are denied their own rules in their own lands. We do the same things when we label them "evil;" surely you know of Christian scriptures which could be interpreted/manipulated (and this may even mean applying them literally and/or not accepting the historical writings as those from a barbaric time of limited religious freedoms and cultural interactions) to kill Muslims in the name of the Christian God. Oh wait, that actually already happened.

There is no God, just cruelty in His service.
 

Gymshoes

Active Member
islam is not a religion. just because they bend over toward a rock every day doesn't make it a religion any more than pointing your right hand straight out at an angle makes the nazi salute religious.
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Man, I had to laugh when I hit this one.:mrgreen:

I feel what you're saying, bro, but Islam really is a religion. A religion of hate and intolerance. A religion that breeds homicide-bombers and worships martyrs. A religion that divides mankind into Muslims and non-Muslims. A religion that oppresses women. A religion that...well, Islam is a bad religion.
 

Reprogammed

Well-Known Member
Jesus Christ.

Muslims aren't the only hate mongering religions. Ever read Leviticus in the outdated Bible? How many homosexuals, women, and people of other religions have been murdered in the name of the Judeo-Christian God?

Not all Islams are hate mongers. You see, there are these funny little things called SECTS. Christians have them, too. They're called Mormons, Baptists, Evangelicals, Episcopalians, etc.

If you ever read the Qur'An, you will find that it only calls for those who trespass on muslims to be punished. It is not a hate mongering tome, at least no more, if not less than the Bible.

In Leviticus, the Old Testament, you will find many outrageous calls for murder. Man has his hair cut above his ears? Kill 'em. Eats shellfish? Abomination.

It's disturbing how anyone could have the gall to cite Islam as a non-religion death squad, when most religions are the same way.

I will not be here to argue, because you obviously have next to no idea what you're talking about. I'm close to a Theology degree, so I'm disgusted with how poorly muslims are being treated based on misinformation.
 

fdd2blk

Well-Known Member
Clearly, the aim of this first Amendment, even the symbolic positioning of this Amendment above all others, envelopes a crucial part of the vision the Founders had for this country. Expression. Acknowledgment. Worship. These are a few of the things which fueled so many to abandon Europe with it's various networks of restriction, or endorsement, of what people can and can not think, believe, want, say and even feel. Those who braved the crossing of the Atlantic found that liberty here, in America, and they helped build the greatest nation to ever exist. Liberty is the greatest catalyst for human innovation and the design of our country was meant to foster and create liberty for all.



bump :peace::joint::joint:
 

AgentWiggles

Well-Known Member
I haven't read the whole thread, but some of you people REALLY need to learn what Islam is really about. Every religion has some backwards-ass shit within its holy texts. And the VAST VAST VAST majority of Muslims are NOT radical Jihadists. Intolerance and fearmongering is the absolute worst thing that anyone can do for the situation.
 

Leothwyn

Well-Known Member
It seems a bit odd to claim that islam is not a religion. It's a religion just as much as christianity is. At this point in history, islam is being used more often and more heavy-handedly as a political tool than christianity is. And, although the bible is full of just as much craziness as the koran, modern christians mostly ignore the most ridiculous stuff (justifying slavery, stoning people, etc.). The two religions aren't so different fundamentally, the followers behaviors are though (luckily for us, in the west).
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
7X, you make some great points. Many people like to say that those who recognize the violence in Islam don't have any real knowledge of Islam. The opposite is true. People who believe that Islam is fundamentally no different from all other religions are the ones who have no knowledge of Islam.

First, we have to understand that there are different interpretations of Islam and they do have varying degrees of fervor. I know some Muslim women who do not cover their heads - I even knew one who dated a Jewish guy from Israel and I have socialized with ones that drink alcohol and go to night clubs, etc. So as with most things, your mileage may vary.

The fact that so many so called moderates are silent with regard to the violence is a real issue that deserves attention. And attitudes tend to run the gamut from totally non-religious to fully radical and all points in between. How each strata views freedom and terror is quite interesting. Experts agree that a little over 10% of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims are full radicals. According to a survey of Muslims living in America, 50% believe Sharia law should replace the US Constitution. In my opinion, that means 50% have no business being here.

When you ask even moderate Muslims if they condone terrorism, most say they do not. Their next sentence invariably begins "but you have to understand." And then they start to make excuses for the terrorists. In my two decades of reading about radical Islam and terror I have come to learn that few Arabs or Muslims are at all disturbed by the news of terrorist attacks, especially when they are against Jews.

About 20 miles from my home is the most dense Muslim population outside of the middle East - Dearborn, MI. The Muslims were dancing in the streets when 911 occurred. They take to the streets to protest every time action is taken against Muslims, but when terrorist attacks occur, their silence is deafening.

About Islam specifically:

Islam is in fact a fully fundamentalist religion. This means that devout Muslims look to their faith to govern every aspect of life and believe it ought to govern every aspect of everyone else's life as well. Anyone who doesn't know this fact doesn't know the first thing about Islam.

Violence in Islam is unlike any other faith. While there are verses in the Qur'an that promote peace with others, these verses are almost always followed by ones that preach violence. See, when studying the Qur'an one always follows what Muhammad said last. The Qur'an is organized from the shortest passage to the longest, not in chronological order. If you read it in chronological order and go by what Muhammad said last, you find that the Qur'an ends with a declaration of war against the infidel.

Now, where this is so different from every other faith is that while others have histories of violence, Islam is the only one that carries this violence into the future. For instance, In Exodus God ordered the Israelites to destroy all of Canaan. But this has no bearing on any people living today. There is no commandment in the Bible to perpetrate future violence against people living today. Islam is unique in this way.

It is also important to know that the ultimate goal of a devout Muslim is to live as Muhammad lived because he was believed to be the perfect Muslim who was without sin. Muhammad, was a warlord and he was particularly fond of deception as a means of warfare. So, it is encouraged in Islam to lie to the infidel, especially when lying is seen to further the cause of Islam. In fact, Muslims are even permitted to violate the rules of Islam as long as the intent is to deceive the infidel in the course of furthering Islam.

I think this is why so many are fooled into believing lies about what Islam really is. They meet Muslims and they listen to them quote passages from the Qur'an that are suggestive of a peaceful religion when such phrases are in fact cherry picked out of context for the purpose of deception. I myself have heard many Muslims repeat the quote that no harm shall ever be done to the innocent. They always fail to tell you two things; that the next line reads "but cut the hand and foot from opposite sides of those who commit mischief in the land." And, that according to Islam, only Muslims can be innocent to begin with.

My personal definition of religion involves a system of beliefs designed to do good for mankind. Judaism seeks to do good by establishing rule of law and justice, Christianity seeks to do good by promoting love and kindness. The only thing I know of that Islam promotes is Draconian sexual oppression. I fail to see how this is useful to mankind.

If you want to know more, check out Robert Spenser at jihadwatch.org. And if you haven't found my other thread, check out Bridgette Gabriel videos on youtube.
 

Leothwyn

Well-Known Member
According to a survey of Muslims living in America, 50% believe Sharia law should replace the US Constitution. In my opinion, that means 50% have no business being here.
I have no love for islam, and generally agree with what you've said... but that number seems awfully high. Are you sure it wasn't that they believe that sharia law has priority for them in their beliefs over the constitution, rather than it replacing the constitution? Because, I'm sure a lot of christians would also say that the word of their magic guy takes priority for them over our constitution too.

Maybe I'm wrong. I didn't think that many of the muslims in our country were that fanatic/kooky.
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
I have no love for islam, and generally agree with what you've said... but that number seems awfully high. Are you sure it wasn't that they believe that sharia law has priority for them in their beliefs over the constitution, rather than it replacing the constitution? Because, I'm sure a lot of christians would also say that the word of their magic guy takes priority for them over our constitution too.

Maybe I'm wrong. I didn't think that many of the muslims in our country were that fanatic/kooky.
The answer lies in a basic understanding of Islam. Islam is fully fundamentalist faith. Fundamentalism is the belief that your religion ought to be the law of the land - it is the polar opposite of separation of Church and state - it is Theocracy in its purest form.

To make Islam the law of the land is the primary responsibility of all Muslims according to the Qur'an. Only the more Westernized "reformed" Muslims who interpret the Qur'an loosely feel differently. These are the ones who might drink alcohol, wear swim suits (females), etc.

As far as religious Muslims are concerned, this is not negotiable. And it isn't about them and how they live. The very essence of Islam requires Sharia to be the law of the land and requires those of other faiths to be subjugated. These are the basic tenants of Islam. In their eyes, that is how God intended for things to be.

And these basic tenants are the source of hostility between Islam and the US. They call the US the great Satan because we are a monumental refutation of their core beliefs - that it is God's will for Islam to rule the world and convert, murder or subjugate the non-believers.
 

redivider

Well-Known Member
i don't know preo. at present, the only violent crime against innocents that the government enables/condones is killing unborn children.
it's called a FETUS. go to court and call a FETUS an unborn child. see where that gets you.

and islam does not condone that treatment of women. it's the fringe groups that have embraced that. and men that hit their women are going to hit them no matter their religion. it is something they witness as a child, and it gets permanently burned as what is correct. it has nothing to do with the religion.

there's christian sects that don't allow women to shave any part of their body, wear pants, cut their hair, wear makeup, or speak to men. yes there are PENTECOSTAL sects that not only endorse this, they preach it as the correct way to live a life. they impose no limits on men, just on women.

i consider this to be just as disgusting as that black dress women wear in saudi arabia. nobody would see this as wrong though, cuz they're good ol' christians....

stupidity. you guys wonder why extremist muslims want to kill americans, it's because of this type of ignorant conversation considered to be true by people like you, and then preached out to the masses.

it's the ignorant, close-minded, and religious way. i meant the republican way.

:wall::wall::wall:
 

Gymshoes

Active Member
Jesus Christ.

Muslims aren't the only hate mongering religions. Ever read Leviticus in the outdated Bible? How many homosexuals, women, and people of other religions have been murdered in the name of the Judeo-Christian God?
THAT WAS THEN! Why does Islam cling to its 7th century world view? What about NOW? You ever think about that? Every other religion has grown up and moved into the civilized world. And YOU can NOT point your finger at one bad thing (Christianity in the past) in order to justify another bad thing (radical islam) That's the kind of thing is what little kids resort to.

Not all Islams are hate mongers.
But the 20% who ARE is a mighty big number.
You see, there are these funny little things called SECTS. Christians have them, too. They're called Mormons, Baptists, Evangelicals, Episcopalians, etc.
Wrong! Those are NOT sects, they are denominations. Use a damned dictionery!

If you ever read the Qur'An, you will find that it only calls for those who trespass on muslims to be punished.
I have a Koran. It is FULL of hate. It is a handbook for war against non-muslims.
It is not a hate mongering tome, at least no more, if not less than the Bible.
I dare you to compare the koran and the new testament (NOT the "bible").
The NT is full of love and forgiveness, not so the koran.

In Leviticus, the Old Testament, you will find many outrageous calls for murder. Man has his hair cut above his ears? Kill 'em. Eats shellfish? Abomination.
Again, that was then, this is now. The Old Testament is just that, OLD! It's a damned history book! Do your comparasins with the NEW TESTAMENT, wise one! See that word NEW? The NT replaced the OT.

It's disturbing how anyone could have the gall to cite Islam as a non-religion death squad, when most religions are the same way.
Sigh... name me one single religion today that is the root cause of any conflict in the world. Only islam is. Look at all the conflicts in the world today. How many involve muslims and their twisted ideology of islam ruling the world? All of 'em!

I'm close to a Theology degree, so I'm disgusted with how poorly muslims are being treated based on misinformation.
Sonny, you need more REAL education. As a start, i recommend you read a book by Leon Uris called The Haj.
 

Leothwyn

Well-Known Member
^^^ I don't disagree with your point overall. Most religions have changed with the times, but islam has not.

But, while it's nice to see christians not wanting to align themselves with the old testament, there still are plenty of them who do believe in that crap, and use it to justify bigotry and hatred. Luckily, their bigotry and hatred is nowhere near as dangerous as islam's.

Like I said, I'm with you on your points about islam... but christianity's not some fluffy gathering of peace, love, and forgiveness.
 
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