Funny how things work

canndo

Well-Known Member
I had always simply agreed with conservatives when they claimed that increasing or implementing a minimum wage would naturally decrease the work force - it seemed to obey my conception of supply and demand but I happened to watch Maddow's show last night where she found a number of studies that said that this is not so, that increasing the minimum wage does not lead to unemployment.


But it must have some negative effect, All ledgers have two entries. What then IS the negative effect of raising minimum wage?
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Heritage foundation says that the vast majority of minimum wage workers come from households that are not in poverty. It would make some sense I think, lots of teens in the middle class have either a particular work ethic possibly inherited from their family - or they want stuff and their family is unwilling to simply give them things.


I got my first job at 14 and I am certain that many here have the same experiences - I think I got something like a buck and a quarter an hour cleaning abandoned apartments for a landlord.\


so that would mean that raising the minimum wage will not raise the standard of living for many of the working poor. A pity, it seemed like such a good idea.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
I had always simply agreed with conservatives when they claimed that increasing or implementing a minimum wage would naturally decrease the work force - it seemed to obey my conception of supply and demand but I happened to watch Maddow's show last night where she found a number of studies that said that this is not so, that increasing the minimum wage does not lead to unemployment.


But it must have some negative effect, All ledgers have two entries. What then IS the negative effect of raising minimum wage?
To start with a negative effect is that it prohibits two individuals from making a consensual agreement. It artificially enters a third party into the equation, whether either of the two contracting parties want them there or not.

Ahem...cough...cough....Mary Ruart addresses this in her book you haven't read yet.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Minimum wages should probably be set on a state to state basis and according to cost of living.

While I agree, there should certainly be a floor below which no one will be allowed to pay, the states can go upward from there.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
To start with a negative effect is that it prohibits two individuals from making a consensual agreement. It artificially enters a third party into the equation, whether either of the two contracting parties want them there or not.

Ahem...cough...cough....Mary Ruart addresses this in her book you haven't read yet.

I took a quick look at her site.



The short answers section is filled with presumptions.


Let us look at something with which we may both be familiar with - the black market for drugs. On the one had one could say that the business of pot is regulated - because it is illegal. But on the other hand, we can actually see what happens in a truly free market, one that is only influenced by government in one way, by making it scarce.

Can we agree on that? They don't tax it, they don't determine it's purity, they don't regulate the weight, the quality, the storage of it or anything else that the government(s) involve themselves with.
 

prebop

Active Member
Raising minimum wage would increase the operating cost of any company that employed minimum wage workers. Ultimately one of three things would have to happen. First, a company could stand pat, next lay off some of it's work force and demand more from the ones left and finally pass the expenses on to the consumer. This would cause inflation. Usually a combination of all three happen to some extent.
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
Heritage foundation says that the vast majority of minimum wage workers come from households that are not in poverty. It would make some sense I think, lots of teens in the middle class have either a particular work ethic possibly inherited from their family - or they want stuff and their family is unwilling to simply give them things.


I got my first job at 14 and I am certain that many here have the same experiences - I think I got something like a buck and a quarter an hour cleaning abandoned apartments for a landlord.\


so that would mean that raising the minimum wage will not raise the standard of living for many of the working poor. A pity, it seemed like such a good idea.

LOL
I got 5 bucks an hour baling hay and at the end of a 13 hour day we got a beer and a warning to be out of there in 5 minutes becuase he was going to let the dogs out.
 

fb360

Active Member
I had always simply agreed with conservatives when they claimed that increasing or implementing a minimum wage would naturally decrease the work force - it seemed to obey my conception of supply and demand but I happened to watch Maddow's show last night where she found a number of studies that said that this is not so, that increasing the minimum wage does not lead to unemployment.


But it must have some negative effect, All ledgers have two entries. What then IS the negative effect of raising minimum wage?
Inflation and devaluing the usd

When gas, food, shelter, everything is increasing in price, an increase in wages is an effective means of keeping the dollar (at least in our country) the same value. However, compared to the rest of the world, our dollar is now worth less due to the fact that you need more of them to purchase the same things you did before.

It's a quick way to turn a rich country into a poor country

e;
if minimum wage was $100/hr, the usd would be equivalent to the peso.... The sad part is, that is where we are headed
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
LOL
I got 5 bucks an hour baling hay and at the end of a 13 hour day we got a beer and a warning to be out of there in 5 minutes becuase he was going to let the dogs out.

Dollar an hour and nickle a bail for me - I lasted a week, they all took pity on the city guy, dreamed that all those bails were actually marijuana but had never smoked any themselves. I wound up driving a truck for them moving grain to the silo. Seems the other driver was caught drinking.

I went back to the place last summer and asked around - the guys that had always dreamed of bailing marijuana wound up actually doing it - and going to jail over it
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
Inflation and devaluing the usd

When gas, food, shelter, everything is increasing in price, an increase in wages is an effective means of keeping the dollar (at least in our country) the same value. However, compared to the rest of the world, our dollar is now worth less due to the fact that you need more of them to purchase the same things you did before.

It's a quick way to turn a rich country into a poor country

e;
if minimum wage was $100/hr, the usd would be equivalent to the peso.... The sad part is, that is where we are headed
You been saying that for 4 years now havent you?

A devalued dollar also increases our* exports and benefits our economy

Thank you very much

BTW
Ron Paul Lost.....again
 

fb360

Active Member
You been saying that for 4 years now havent you?

A devalued dollar also increases are exports and benefits our economy

Thank you very much

BTW
Ron Paul Lost.....again
You're an idiot.

Whenever there is something you can't refute you go blabbering about Ron Paul.
I'll make a $10,000usd bet with you right now that I have never supported Ron Paul, for you to leave this forum forever.

it's simple economics halfwit.
if minimum wage is $1000/hr, then a gallon of milk is going to cost you $200... moron

And if I'm wrong, then why is the CANADIAN DOLLAR, THE FUCKING LOONIE, worth more than the usd?
 

deprave

New Member
I had always simply agreed with conservatives when they claimed that increasing or implementing a minimum wage would naturally decrease the work force - it seemed to obey my conception of supply and demand but I happened to watch Maddow's show last night where she found a number of studies that said that this is not so, that increasing the minimum wage does not lead to unemployment.


But it must have some negative effect, All ledgers have two entries. What then IS the negative effect of raising minimum wage?
Interesting studies I am sure but common sense dictates otherwise, Interfering with a consensual agreement between two parties creates this thing known as unemployment, simple example if hiring somehow to clean the floors for 5$ an hour consequently makes you 1$ in profit per hour because you don't need to do it yourself or give someone else the responsibility of doing this, If you now have to pay that job 7$ an hour then your losing money to have someone hired just to do that, now instead you have your other employees do that job in addition to what they normally do. The minimum wage keeps jobs away from the less fortunate, as you wrote, only middle class receive minimum wage, that is because higher standards are set, the workers need to do more, if you could hire that guy clean the floors for the value of cleaning those floors then it gives him a job and your not losing money.

The floor cleaner guy can then hopefully learn about the other jobs in the business and work his way up ideally, living out the american dream. Now instead the good workers are over worked long hours, business can't find people to hire because few people have experience, and a huge unemployed class is created and on and on and on.
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
You're an idiot.

Whenever there is something you can't refute you go blabbering about Ron Paul.
I'll make a $10,000usd bet with you right now that I have never supported Ron Paul, for you to leave this forum forever.

it's simple economics halfwit.
if minimum wage is $1000/hr, then a gallon of milk is going to cost you $200... moron

And if I'm wrong, then why is the CANADIAN DOLLAR, THE FUCKING LOONIE, worth more than the usd?
DOES CANADA ALSO HAVE A MINiMUM WAGE LAW?


Updated: 02/01/13
These minimum wages are the minimum hourly wage rates set by the provinces and territories in Canada for experienced adult workers.
Province
General Wage
More Employment Standards
Alberta
$9.75
Alberta Human Services
BC
$10.25
B.C. Ministry of Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training
Manitoba
$10.25
Manitoba Family Services and Labour
New Brunswick
$10.00
New Brunswick Employment Standards
Newfoundland
$10.00
Labour Relations Agency
NWT
$10.00
Education, Culture and Employment
Nova Scotia
$10.15
Labour and Advanced Education
Nunavut
$11.00
Ontario
$10.25
Ministry of Labour
PEI
$10.00
Environment, Labour and Justice
Quebec
$9.90
Commission des normes du travail
Saskatchewan
$9.50
Saskatchewan Labour Standards
Yukon
$10.30
Employment Standards

LOL You FUCK If Canadian Dollars are worth more than US dollars than their Minimum wage is Higher than even ours
There goes your John Birch Society premise
 

fb360

Active Member
DOES CANADA ALSO HAVE A MINiMUM WAGE LAW?
That's beside the point you assclown.

You said, and I quote: "A devalued dollar also increases are exports and benefits our economy".

Oh really, OUR economy has benefited?

How about this chart simpleton:
cd1.png

Notice CLEARLY that our dollar has DEVALUED! OMGOSHNISH!
I dont even need to mention the dismal state of our economy during that time period. CLEARLY, CLEARLY, the economy did not benefit
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
Many economists have suggested that the weakening in the US dollar could actually be good for the economy—since a weaker dollar will boost manufacturing production, which in turn will lift employment and all this will set in motion economic growth. It follows then that the US dollar devaluation is exactly what is needed to keep the US economy going.
http://mises.org/daily/1345

devaluation

Reduction in the exchange value of a country's monetary unit in terms of gold, silver, or foreign currency. By decreasing the price of the home country's exports abroad and increasing the price of imports in the home country, devaluation encourages the home country's export sales and discourages expenditures on imports, thus improving its balance of payments.

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Currency+devaluation

A key effect of devaluation is that it makes the domestic currency cheaper relative to other currencies. There are two implications of a devaluation. First, devaluation makes the country's exports relatively less expensive for foreigners. Second, the devaluation makes foreign products relatively more expensive for domestic consumers, thus discouraging imports. This may help to increase the country's exports and decrease imports, and may therefore help to reduce the current account deficit.

http://www.newyorkfed.org/aboutthefed/fedpoint/fed38.html

PARIS — As economists, pundits and politicians debate the reasons for the dollar’s rapid fall, Robert Stevenson and his workers in downtown Buffalo, N.Y., watch the slide with glee.
Skip to next paragraph Enlarge This Image
Doug Benz for The New York Times
"The dollar has allowed us to be much more aggressive overseas," said Robert Stevenson, head of Eastman Machine.

[h=4]Related[/h][h=2]Times Topics: Dollar[/h]


Mr. Stevenson’s family-owned company, Eastman Machine, has been making cutting tools for the textile industry for 120 years. A year ago, in the depths of the financial crisis, Mr. Stevenson had to lay off a dozen workers, but the dollar’s almost 20 percent decline since March has made his goods much more competitive overseas. Next month, Mr. Stevenson hopes to sign a multimillion-dollar deal in Europe that could enable him to rehire his workers.
“This wouldn’t have happened five years ago, or even two years ago,” he said. “Business conditions are still slow but the dollar has allowed us to be much more aggressive overseas.”
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
I took a quick look at her site.



The short answers section is filled with presumptions.


Let us look at something with which we may both be familiar with - the black market for drugs. On the one had one could say that the business of pot is regulated - because it is illegal. But on the other hand, we can actually see what happens in a truly free market, one that is only influenced by government in one way, by making it scarce.

Can we agree on that? They don't tax it, they don't determine it's purity, they don't regulate the weight, the quality, the storage of it or anything else that the government(s) involve themselves with.

The government presence has artificially inflated the price via prohibition. If there were no regulation and no prohibition, a true free market, supply and demand would set the price. Taxed and regulated is better than the present model in that the size of the stick the thugs use is reduced, but I oppose tax and regulation on the grounds that I and I alone own my body. Nobody should have to be granted permission to own themselves or grow a plant.

Don't give up on Mary Ruart, if you believe peaceful interactions are the best way to live your life.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Interesting studies I am sure but common sense dictates otherwise, Interfering with a consensual agreement between two parties creates this thing known as unemployment, simple example if hiring somehow to clean the floors for 5$ an hour consequently makes you 1$ in profit per hour because you don't need to do it yourself or give someone else the responsibility of doing this, If you now have to pay that job 7$ an hour then your losing money to have someone hired just to do that, now instead you have your other employees do that job in addition to what they normally do. The minimum wage keeps jobs away from the less fortunate, as you wrote, only middle class receive minimum wage, that is because higher standards are set, the workers need to do more, if you could hire that guy clean the floors for the value of cleaning those floors then it gives him a job and your not losing money.

The floor cleaner guy can then hopefully learn about the other jobs in the business and work his way up ideally, living out the american dream. Now instead the good workers are over worked long hours, business can't find people to hire because few people have experience, and a huge unemployed class is created and on and on and on.

The problem is this "common sense" thing you mention. When "common sense" does not comport with reality then it does not make sense to continue to attempt to USE common sense. If the employer cannot afford the employee to clean his floor then he surely cannot afford to pay his staff to do so, taking them away from their important work and/or paying them overtime.

The point remains that tghose studies indicate that the difference between that 5 dollars and another amount is not significant enough to seriously alter national employment figures. That doesn't make "sense" in a free market but we are still left with the reality of the situation, that companies still hire even when mandated to pay more than they would like to pay.

IF the floor needs sweeping then a company will hire a floor sweeper and pay what it must.


Nothing says that they don't pass the cost on and they may but if the company down the street has decided to forgo a clean floor in order to keep their prices lower than the other company, then the company with the clean floors will not raise their price or do so at it's own peril.
 
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