Got mugged by some crackheads today

SublimeSilence said:

Actually no you are incorrect. There are requirements by law in the use lethal force in self defense. Generally put in the simplest way it goes by the "average man" rule. I.E. would an "average man" be threatened enough in a given situation to be authorized to use lethal force. If someone comes up to you and threatens you with their fists and you pull out a gun and shot them you would in fact go to jail. Why? It's considered a disproportionate use of force. Don't believe me? Look it up, or better yet talk to cops or a lawyer about it. Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you can use it no matter if you feel threatened or not. In any situation where you use lethal force you need to prove that your life was in fact in danger, "Self defense" won't cover it. Keep in mind that in murder cases where the murder admits to the killing over 90% of the time they claim it in self-defense. So when you walk into that courtroom the case will also not just be as clear cut as, "Hey he was a crackhead trying to rob me, he showed a knife in his belt so I shot him!". There is more to a case than just that.

Also in the American court system, life is normally given priority over property. Not in all states, and it varies country to county, but for the most part that statement holds true. If someone jacks your shit and you shoot them as they run, you more than likely depending on your state/county will in fact be going to jail for at least manslaughter.

Read up on your rights as a gun owner to self defense. When you use a gun for protection, especially outside of the home, you are fighting an uphill battle.

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Do you think these idiots think that far ahead? They think the cops are gonna pat them on the back for shooting another human whether they are a crackhead or wtf, they seem to be above the law , we'll see.

Also IF this guy did have a gun when the thugs came up to him and asked him for his wallet, I highly doubt he would have been able to pull it out quickly enough to shoot all four of them. I mean if he started pulling out his piece before they made any threats to him at all he would have gone to jail because he pulled a gun on four people that posed no immediate threat to him. Also had he pulled his gun when they surrounded him if they were close enough, they wouldn't have just stood there they would have lounged for him and more than likely tackled him and then used his gun against him. And so what if he got it out in time to maybe shoot one of them, what if they weren't cowards and the others tackled him? If anyone here has ever actually shot a gun(and especially under a stressful situation) you would know that the process of unholstering, chambering a round and then getting to the task of shooting four people would take a bit of time.

On the other hand lets say he did shoot one of them and the rest ran off. Let's look at legally what would happen to him. First when the cops would get there he WOULD be arrested. Also unless there were witnesses/camera's around, the only evidence the cops would have would be one dead guy and another guy claiming he was about to be mugged. So they search the dead guy and find the knife that you claimed he had, but it was in his belt and not in his hand. That's minus one for you. In court you HAVE to prove IMMEDIATE threat, IE that if you didn't kill him at that second your own life would have been in danger. So if he showed you he had a knife that doesn't count for shit in court unless that knife was in his hand ready to go. Next if the other muggers are found what then? They could just as easily say that you were trying to rob them of their money to fix their football field after they come up to you to ask for a donation. I could go on with this...

I have to say this guy did the right thing and is lucky more didn't happen to him. He lost 12 bucks and that's all. The choice to not be a victim can't always be made.

I could sit here and type multiple paragraphs more about the law on the use of deadly force but I really don't feel like it. If you own a gun and ever plan on using it in self defense you are an irresponsible gun owner if you don't research the laws on it yourself. There is a wealth of information on the internet available about your state/counties laws on this subject and I highly suggest reading up on it. Otherwise if you don't with the comments being thrown around here I can see one of you going to jail if you ever do in fact use your gun.

SublimeSilence said:

Actually no you are incorrect. There are requirements by law in the use lethal force in self defense. Generally put in the simplest way it goes by the "average man" rule. I.E. would an "average man" be threatened enough in a given situation to be authorized to use lethal force. If someone comes up to you and threatens you with their fists and you pull out a gun and shot them you would in fact go to jail. Why? It's considered a disproportionate use of force. Don't believe me? Look it up, or better yet talk to cops or a lawyer about it. Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you can use it no matter if you feel threatened or not. In any situation where you use lethal force you need to prove that your life was in fact in danger, "Self defense" won't cover it. Keep in mind that in murder cases where the murder admits to the killing over 90% of the time they claim it in self-defense. So when you walk into that courtroom the case will also not just be as clear cut as, "Hey he was a crackhead trying to rob me, he showed a knife in his belt so I shot him!". There is more to a case than just that.

Also in the American court system, life is normally given priority over property. Not in all states, and it varies country to county, but for the most part that statement holds true. If someone jacks your shit and you shoot them as they run, you more than likely depending on your state/county will in fact be going to jail for at least manslaughter.

Read up on your rights as a gun owner to self defense. When you use a gun for protection, especially outside of the home, you are fighting an uphill battle.

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Thats why you always shoot to kill. Dead people cannot defend themselves.
Some States have what is known as the castle doctrine. Generally, the “castle doctrine” provides that someone attacked in his home can use reasonable force, which can include deadly force, to protect his or another's life without any duty to retreat from the attacker. It is defined differently in different states. The name appears to have its origin in the English common law rules protecting a person's home and the phrase “one's home is one's castle. ”

So if they break into your home and your state has a castle doctrine start shooting you'll get away with it. In fact just a few months ago some 24 yr old drunk broke into an old mans apartment, the old man shot him with a 12 gauge slug and killed him. Old man never spent a night in jail or even went to court over it.


Most of the time just showing the gun will diffuse the situation instantly.

NoDrama said:

Thats why you always shoot to kill. Dead people cannot defend themselves.
Some States have what is known as the castle doctrine. Generally, the “castle doctrine” provides that someone attacked in his home can use reasonable force, which can include deadly force, to protect his or another's life without any duty to retreat from the attacker. It is defined differently in different states. The name appears to have its origin in the English common law rules protecting a person's home and the phrase “one's home is one's castle. ”

So if they break into your home and your state has a castle doctrine start shooting you'll get away with it. In fact just a few months ago some 24 yr old drunk broke into an old mans apartment, the old man shot him with a 12 gauge slug and killed him. Old man never spent a night in jail or even went to court over it.


Most of the time just showing the gun will diffuse the situation instantly.

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All states have a "castle doctrine" just most define it differently. The majority of states (and I mean 30+ of them) define it in this way. The "castle" ie your home is your last place to run to. A little known fact about the use of deadly force is that if there was a chance for you to run away, and you didn't take that chance and decided to stand your ground then in fact you are committing at least manslaughter. Of course if you have no chance to run then it's okay, and under the "castle doctrine" it makes your house AND business safe havens where you do not have to run if you have the chance. The idea that you can shoot anyone who breaks into your house though for whatever reason is actually invalid in the vast majority of states. I'd be willing to say that in more than 45+ of the sates it is illegal to shoot someone that grabbed your ps3 and is running out of your house. In most states if someone breaks into your house you can only shoot them if you believe they are in fact a threat OR they are trying to commit arson. Generally speaking with the exception of VERY few states(alabama is the only that comes to mind) you can never shoot anyone in the back if they are running away from you.


Take for example this hypothetical case where a man with Alzheimer's brakes into another mans house because he forgot who's house was his, the guy is in his late 90's and clearly senile. The owner of the house comes downstairs and shots the guy. When the cops come the home owner is very honest and explained he saw the guy in his living room he was scared and pulled the trigger. In the vast majority of states the home owner would still get convicted for manslaughter at the least because the senile old man posed ZERO threat to him or his family.

Again use of lethal force is a VERY sketchy topic with MANY grey area's. Understanding the laws in your area is KEY to being a responsible gun owner. That is if you decide to take the responsibility of EVER pulling the trigger in self defense.

Thank you SublimeSilence for your time taken in explaining this to me.
You are definitely adding another dimension to this conversation.
I am a better person today as I have learned something new from you.
It seems not all Americans are 'gun happy to the extreme'.
This puts me somewhat at ease as I would love to visit your country one day.

dbkick said:

you're a fucking moron not a motherfucker

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Ahhh, the last bastion of the illiterate is profanity.
Please explain how such an exalted person such as your self is above forum rules?
I thought we were having a conversation - well defined, civil & you begin slinging around profanity laced names?
I guess I'm the one glad you don't have a firearm as its likely you couldn't control it any better than you do your mouth.
You just earned my trusty old friend the Ignore button.
By the way, your mother and I are simply "friends", no need to take it personally.

Just to be clear I'll post the watered down basic things you need to cover if you ever use a gun in self defense. (I'm just going to copy/paste the majority of this from an already well written set of previous forum posts and elaborate a bit on them)

A. You will need to articulate Ability, Opportunity and Intent. That's the Ability of the guy you blasted to cause you great bodily harm/death (he had a gun, he had a knife, he had a club, he was frickin' huge). The Opportunity of the guy you blasted to do you harm (standing 100 yards away with a knife presents no opportunity to use it. the threat must be imminent). The Intent of the guy you blasted to do you said harm (what he said or did that put you in imminent fear of your life.)

B. There is also the duty to retreat, which is the responsibility to be able to show that you could not safely retreat. This means is you must flee if it is safe and reasonable to do so! Unless you were in your home or business where retreat is not necessary("Castle Doctrine"). IE if someone points a gun at you then your duty to retreat is nullified because in the act of retreat you could get shot in the back. But if a guy half a block down from you waves a knife at you and says he will kill you, you in fact CAN NOT shoot him because of reasons previously stated AND because you have the opportunity to safely retreat from the situation.

C. Show that you did not instigate the attack in any way, or that were in the wrong in any way. This just means if you were the one in the wrong you can not use deadly force. IE if some guy cuts you off while driving, and you pull up next to him get out of your car and start yelling at him. If he pulls out a knife or even a gun YOU DON'T have the right to pull out yours and blast him. By instigating something you forfeit the legal use of deadly force INSTANTLY.


Also keep in mind giving up your wallet will be far cheaper than needing a lawyer. The 12 bucks the guy lost is far cheaper than the thousands he would have had to pay for a lawyer to defend him. Not to mention the fact that he would need to live with the fact he killed a man if not many people over 12 bucks.

I think when people think of "American" gun owners they generally think of nascar loving red neck hillbillies. Rather than the law abiding citizens that most of us are. Thousands more people die because of drunk/reckless drivers every year here compared to people that are murdered with guns. I think gun issues get blown out of proportion, mostly by the media. Also our country for the most part is extremely safe. Statistically you have the same odds of getting mugged/robbed/home burglarised in the US as you do in Canada and the UK. These crimes listed vary by less than 1% between the three countries statistically.

I am by no means a criminal. Labeling me as such means you mine as well label yourself one.

Here in Washington there is no retreat law. If your in a public place and you have every right to be there and someone confronts you to the point where force needs to be takin you can take it. Its called the" stand your ground" statute. But other then that your hitting all the right nails. I carry peacefully. Never had to point or even show my weapon.

If I go my entire life without ever having to kill someone then my weapon has served its purpose. But if I have to then so be it.

Kodank Moment said:

I am by no means a criminal. Labeling me as such means you mine as well label yourself one.

Here in Washington there is no retreat law. If your in a public place and you have every right to be there and someone confronts you to the point where force needs to be takin you can take it. Its called the" stand your ground" statute. But other then that your hitting all the right nails. I carry peacefully. Never had to point or even show my weapon.

If I go my entire life without ever having to kill someone then my weapon has served its purpose. But if I have to then so be it.

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I never labeled you as one, only someone else talking like a hotshot on this thread.