Gypsum anyone?

NaturalFarmer

NaturalFarmer

Well-Known Member
Tupapa said:
Have u actually try it? Gypsum? Or u only read and read about it?
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You just come around to start shit? Sounds like it to me. Have you brought anything to the table here? You know aside from not understanding calcium uptake or gypsum? Calcium availability is directly linked to the CEC in your soil and whether it is tied up in a carbonate.
 
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Tupapa

Tupapa

Well-Known Member
NaturalFarmer said:
You just come around to start shit? Sounds like it to me. Have you brought anything to the table here? You know aside from not understanding calcium uptake or gypsum? Calcium availability is directly linked to the CEC in your soil and whether it is tied up in a carbonate.
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Relax grasshopper im not trying to start anything ijust want to learn something new about gypsum, since i didn't know it was readily available. Its all peace and love here.
 
NaturalFarmer

NaturalFarmer

Well-Known Member
Tupapa said:
B

I use gypsum in my super soil mix and i let it cook for a month., Maybe u can inform me., I didn't know u can use gypsum and it will be ready available. How u use it?
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I use it in my soil mix like you and would expect about a month to break down. 3-5 cups per 30 gallons. Most basic soil tests will have false readings in regards to calcium the ppm readings wont be in available form, so farmers will think they are covered when in fact they are deficient. Calcium is a slow mover and incredibly important to plant health. (Water Soluable Calcium vinegar:charred eggshell 10:1) The nutrients interact with each other in amazing ways (Calcium in particular) that can be seen in the Mulder Chart. (crossing your eyes, doesn't help, it is still a mind fuck but incredible useful with understanding nutrients)

mulders-chart-e1465939603653.jpg
https://www.rollitup.org/t/soil-nutrient-interaction.928978/#post-13198306


"Calcium is transported in the xylem via an ion exchange mechanism. It attaches to lignin molecules and exchange must occur with calcium or another similar cation (e.g. Mg++, Na+, K+, NH4+, etc.). Calcium is not very mobile in the soil, or in plant tissue, therefore a continuous supply is essential."
http://www.spectrumanalytic.com/support/library/ff/Ca_Basics.htm



"Gypsum dissolves in water to release Ca2+ and SO4 2- , with no significant direct impact on soil pH."
https://www.ipni.net/publication/nss.nsf/0/7C3CA66236089F81852579AF00766606/$FILE/NSS-16 Gypsum.pdf
 
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Rasta Roy

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
If you had gypsum and Langbeinite (sul-po-mag) on hand, do you think using them in combination would create a sulfer toxicity? Or do you think they are both slow release enough, that it wouldn't create an issue. I'm about to start prepping my beds and I'm definitely a fan of the pinch of everything method (diversity is everything right?!). I've got both on hand, the Langbeinite was what I was planning to lean on, because of the magnesium and potassium it brings to the table...But I don't want to miss out on the soil conditioning benefits of gypsum. Especially since Im gonna be doing a more no til approach with these beds that are kinda deep. I definitely don't want soil compaction going on in those bed bottoms. Plus I have a big bag of it I bought a year ago and have barely gone through.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
NaturalFarmer said:
I use it in my soil mix like you and would expect about a month to break down. 3-5 cups per 30 gallons. Most basic soil tests will have false readings in regards to calcium the ppm readings wont be in available form, so farmers will think they are covered when in fact they are deficient. Calcium is a slow mover and incredibly important to plant health. The nutrients interact with each other in amazing ways (Calcium in particular) that can be seen in the Mulder Chart.

View attachment 3860238
https://www.rollitup.org/t/soil-nutrient-interaction.928978/#post-13198306


"Calcium is transported in the xylem via an ion exchange mechanism. It attaches to lignin molecules and exchange must occur with calcium or another similar cation (e.g. Mg++, Na+, K+, NH4+, etc.). Calcium is not very mobile in the soil, or in plant tissue, therefore a continuous supply is essential."
http://www.spectrumanalytic.com/support/library/ff/Ca_Basics.htm



"Gypsum dissolves in water to release Ca2+ and SO4 2- , with no significant direct impact on soil pH."
https://www.ipni.net/publication/nss.nsf/0/7C3CA66236089F81852579AF00766606/$FILE/NSS-16 Gypsum.pdf
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Gypsum is nowhere near as water soluble as either calcium nitrate or mag sulfate. That's a basic fact of chemistry. Clearly other processes are at work to make it available to the plants.

This is why I commented above that soul is chemically very different from hydroponics.
 
NaturalFarmer

NaturalFarmer

Well-Known Member
Rasta Roy said:
If you had gypsum and Langbeinite (sul-po-mag) on hand, do you think using them in combination would create a sulfer toxicity? Or do you think they are both slow release enough, that it wouldn't create an issue. I'm about to start prepping my beds and I'm definitely a fan of the pinch of everything method (diversity is everything right?!). I've got both on hand, the Langbeinite was what I was planning to lean on, because of the magnesium and potassium it brings to the table...But I don't want to miss out on the soil conditioning benefits of gypsum. Especially since Im gonna be doing a more no til approach with these beds that are kinda deep. I definitely don't want soil compaction going on in those bed bottoms. Plus I have a big bag of it I bought a year ago and have barely gone through.
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From my understanding, a sulfur toxicity is almost unheard of.

"Toxicity
Sulfur toxicity for practical purposes should be considered as non-existent. Excessive applications most often result in a depression of soil pH and an increase of the problems that occur with the pH decrease. In fact, sulfur uptake is reduced as the pH of the soil decreases."
 
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Rasta Roy

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
Tupapa said:
B

I use gypsum in my super soil mix and i let it cook for a month., Maybe u can inform me., I didn't know u can use gypsum and it will be ready available. How u use it?
Click to expand...
"Gypsum has calcium sulphate in the dihydrate form (two water molecules with each calcium sulphate) making it somewhat more soluble than the anhydrous form of calcium sulphate. A small amount of gypsum can dissolve at once in the soil solution (limit is 0.24 g per 100 mL of water at 20oC). Once the soil solution reaches the limit of calcium sulphate in solution, gypsum starts to precipitate again. Thus there is a fast provision of calcium and sulphate into soil solution for plant uptake or effect on the soil but the overall rate of release from gypsum is controlled by the rate with which the calcium and sulphate are taken or move from the soil solution.

As gypsum dissolves, one sulphate ion is released with each calcium ion. Since a sulphur atom is lighter than a calcium atom, the amount of sulphur released is around 75% of the amount of calcium by weight.

Calcium sulphate is much more soluble than calcium carbonate (lime) and over time will release calcium at a significantly faster rate than the weathering of lime. Time of release is variable depending on soil conditions including moisture level (dryer is slower), drainage (faster soil water velocity means more ability for the gypsum to dissolve as calcium moves downwards), soluble salt level (higher levels of some salts can make it slower), sodium level (higher sodium level makes it faster as the calcium goes on to the exchange sites allowing more gypsum to dissolve) and the general ability for the soil (and plants) to “absorb” calcium and sulphate from the soil solution."

That's the science explanation. Small amounts of gypsum becomes instantly soluble with water, its properties keep it all from becoming soluble, but everytime you get it moist, part of it becomes soluble. Over time (months to years) this soluble amount will increase...Giving even better results...But we're talking soil that's been grown in and is communicating with a rhizosphere, getting regular waterings with proper drainage. The super soil cooking method will not increase its availability properties.
 
NaturalFarmer

NaturalFarmer

Well-Known Member
This was a response from a well known organic avocado farmer who taught me a few things about gypsum....He charges a lot of money from my understanding too.

"Sulfur should be about the same as your P, P should be about the equivalent of your K. K should be 3 to 5% depending on soil mix type and your overall CEC. Higher the CEC, the lower your K. The lower your CEC, the more K you need."

"Carbonate in excess won't hurt you and will over time, providing your water and biology, give up some of that calcium. What it does hurt though is that it gives you an idea that there is plenty of calcium yet you have calcium deficiencies.

One of my favorite "tricks" here in Peru is to walk into a farm and ask if they have a calcium problem. And then I wait. 90% of the time, the answer is, "yes, we have a terrible calcium problem" our pH is super high from an excess of calcium." But then you look at sodium and it is off the chart. By definition, if you have too much Na there is too much salt.

On my farm, I have some very white soils where the lab stops measuring at 100,000 ppm of Ca using M3. With [email protected], 1500 ppm of Ca. And there is a lot of sodium. What is the only answer? Gypsum. The response is amazing to gypsum."
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Then my observations about your Calcium are correct, way overstated. And you probably not only have carbonates, but bicarbonates too. This steals the soluble calcium from the soil.

Send a soil sample to Spectrumanalytic and ask for the K2 test. You will have results by the end of the week. Take 200 grams of dried sample for the lab. Take a couple of handfuls down about 12 inches or so, where you know you water and fertilizer. Mix the handfuls together and then dry them in a low temp oven or even the direct sun if there is no wind, frequently moving the soil around so that it dries.
 
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