HHP's 10K HPA Build Thread!

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Atomizer

Well-Known Member
It works out to 0.58GPH (2.2LPH) per nozzle, which suggests the average pressure in the manifold during the misting is a little less than 43psi.
Pressure ramp: 0psi-120psi-0psi over 3 seconds gives an average of 40psi, compare that to the closest published nozzle spec: 0.6GPH @ 43psi and its a pretty perfect match for 0.58GPH @ 40psi
Running the 3sec/4min cycle for 24 hours would put 7.75gal (30L) through the chamber.
 
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indrhrvest

New Member
Atomizer said:
It works out to 0.58GPH (2.2LPH) per nozzle, which suggests the average pressure in the manifold during the misting is a little less than 43psi.
Pressure ramp: 0psi-120psi-0psi over 3 seconds gives an average of 40psi, compare that to the closest published nozzle spec: 0.6GPH @ 43psi and its a pretty perfect match for 0.58GPH @ 40psi
Running the 3sec/4min cycle for 24 hours would put 7.75gal (30L) through the chamber.
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All that math makes my head hurt haha..

We just dropped the manifold size down to 3/8's from 1/2 to reduce the volume and increase the pressure. I'm hoping to bring total water usage down. For prototyping however, the 1/2 served its purpose.
 
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Atomizer

Well-Known Member
A few real life measurements, a few known variables and a bit of math can be useful.
Its easy to think..the nozzle spec is "x" GPH at "x" psi and i`m using this cycle timing. So, i must be delivering "x" gallons of nutes per day.
It holds true for 100% lossless systems, but they dont exist in the real world ;)
 
Mike Young

Mike Young

Well-Known Member
indrhrvest said:
Or just use a good industrial spec'd pump to begin with, one that has a great track record in industrial applications. I've worked with a lot of pumps for many different applications, this isn't my first rodeo. We are not using off the shelf pumps, we have our own spec.



Our prototype used 1/2 PVC without any issues. The only real drawback is the additional volume. Once the solenoid closes you have the additional volume of the 1/2 PVC that will be released from the nozzle until it looses pressure. You'd simply use more water is all.

Here's what we came up with after quite a bit of R&D. We switched to 3/8 stainless tube with 1/8 npt bungs. It obviously costs a little more, but you'll never have any problems with it. The rack mount allows you to use differnt manifold setups.




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Damn, that's pretty!
 
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indrhrvest

New Member
It's an automated nutrient mixing system. In this chart, it's the NDS. The AGT is the tray and the LS is a lift station. It's the 1st generation production version after two prototypes.

System Diagram.jpg
 
Jimmy Luffnan

Jimmy Luffnan

Well-Known Member
I have seen in a couple of threads you results with your systems and they look good, good root formation.
Since you are very into R&D and want the best possible results, I found this a while back and it is a very interesting study into the "magical fluffy roots" or trichoblasts that is the greatest desire in TAG... ;)

http://www.usmarc.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/53200360/Morphological_synergism_root_hair_length_density_initiation_geometry_P_acquisition_A_thaliana_modeling_approach.pdf

It is a little bit of a long read, but talks about effect of Phosporous levels and trichoblast production.
Lowering P levels though PH availability has quite a substantial impact on the production of these hairs, not just water micron size and spray cycles which we focus on the most...
Interesting stuff for the advanced TAG grower none the less...

Cheers Jimmy.
 
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Atomizer

Well-Known Member
I think that doc relates more to soil where P (and everything else) has to be actively sought out by the roots. With HPA and AA the roots get waiter service in the form of mist, they just have to adapt to make use of it. Droplet size, timing and chamber temperature seems more important than the nute makeup with HPA/AA. As long as you dont overwet, overheat or overfert, you should see plenty of root hair production, even with ex-soil roots.
root hair .jpg
 
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indrhrvest

New Member
Jimmy Luffnan said:
Very nice!
The craftsmanship and design look excellent :)
Well done

Cheers Jimmy.
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Thanks, we are setting the system back up right now for a LED vs T5 run. My personal view is not to strive for perfect puffy roots, but to find a happy medium between good multi-cell root hair development and maintaining a wet enough enviornment so as to reduce risk of crop loss. We are looking at this from a commercial point of view so there has to be a measure of saftey. We have some videos on Youtube/indoorharvest showing our roots..

 
Jimmy Luffnan

Jimmy Luffnan

Well-Known Member
I think you are the right track ;)
It seems to be a forever quest for HP and AA growers to find that perfect fluffy root which is a lot of time and testing, testing, testing.

If you can get your system to grow faster, use less nutrient and water and minimize pathogens to considerable degree over the best current methods of growing, then you have a winning system, even if the roots don't qualify as A+++ quality to the fastidious TAG grower.

Advancements in technology still scare most people even though they don't realize it, but that is human nature :)
'People' are afraid of the path less traveled. When you can show them effort/cost/simplicity vs reward, you've won them

I look forward to your future advancements indrhrvest :)

Cheers Jimmy.
 
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oxanaca

Well-Known Member
indrhrvest said:
Thanks, we are setting the system back up right now for a LED vs T5 run. My personal view is not to strive for perfect puffy roots, but to find a happy medium between good multi-cell root hair development and maintaining a wet enough enviornment so as to reduce risk of crop loss. We are looking at this from a commercial point of view so there has to be a measure of saftey. We have some videos on Youtube/indoorharvest showing our roots..

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hey my friend had a few thoughts for you

have you ever thought about adding a 50gpd RO unit to each tray. he figured in the spirit of risk prevention any component failure would be isolated to single trays rather than to the entire system, such as if your 1200gpd unit suffered catastrophic failure

he was also wondering when you plan to grow more challenging species. seeing as lettuce and basil have tiny root systems and dont require much light, fill that fucker up with roots dude.
 
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indrhrvest

New Member
oxanaca said:
hey my friend had a few thoughts for you

have you ever thought about adding a 50gpd RO unit to each tray. he figured in the spirit of risk prevention any component failure would be isolated to single trays rather than to the entire system, such as if your 1200gpd unit suffered catastrophic failure

he was also wondering when you plan to grow more challenging species. seeing as lettuce and basil have tiny root systems and dont require much light, fill that fucker up with roots dude.
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I think the problem there would be the added cost to the system and the increased maintainence required to keep that many RO systems online. There risk of a properly designed RO system having a failure is minimal. For example, we are not using a single component common to what hobbyists use now. Those RO systems sold by Hydroponic shops are basically junk compared to our RO systems we source from an OEM supplier.

We do have plans to grow larger plants, but right now it is easier to conduct our R&D with lettuce and basil due to our facility space. We have larger root chamber designs, we can make a 2' deep tray as well for really big roots.

In a larger operation we wouldn't even use individual RO systems per nutrient despensing unit, we would install one large RO system to supply the entire facility. An example of a unit would be this..

 
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Atomizer

Well-Known Member
You`d need a football field sized place to warrant something that size ;)
Your 1200gpd RO should be enough to run at least 150 chambers (30L/day) drain to waste. Centralizing the RO system for low maintenance makes good sense, as would centralizing the irrigation system. You`d cut the maintenance of 300 pumps, 300 accumulators, 300 solenoids and 150 timers down to 1 big pump + a backup, 1 large accumulator + a backup, a bank of solenoids and a few timers. It would free up more time for checking the odd 6,750 nozzles ;)
 
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indrhrvest

New Member
Atomizer said:
You`d need a football field sized place to warrant something that size ;)
Your 1200gpd RO should be enough to run at least 150 chambers (30L/day) drain to waste. Centralizing the RO system for low maintenance makes good sense, as would centralizing the irrigation system. You`d cut the maintenance of 300 pumps, 300 accumulators, 300 solenoids and 150 timers down to 1 big pump + a backup, 1 large accumulator + a backup, a bank of solenoids and a few timers. It would free up more time for checking the odd 6,750 nozzles ;)
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I'm sure you'll snicker.. but yes, we have designed a skid fixture just like our nutrient system that incorporates two large tandem pumps with a large accumulator. Really just depends on the application and the customers budget.
 
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Atomizer

Well-Known Member
Makes no odds to me, but i`m sure potential customers would appreciate having the option of tighter mist control, that translates to lower water/nute consumption as well as lower maintenance.
Pump based HPA (aka TAG) is very dated, it was knocking around on Overgrow at least a decade ago. If you offer the more modern, accumulator driven system it may give you an advantage over competitors that are using pumps.
Most advances in modern aero have come from growers on forums just like this one, it doesnt look like thats going to change anytime soon.
 
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