Holistic B.S.B.P. Memorial Grow Series - There Shall Be LED!

SimonMoon

SimonMoon

Well-Known Member
BSBPImgLED.jpg
Holistic B.S.B.P. Memorial Grow Series - There Shall Be LED!​

Hi there Champ! Nice of you to drop by in my Holistic B.S.B.P. Memorial Grow Series - There Hall Be LED - Thread!

The Introduction

This is a series of threads that revolve around a very sophisticated small scale automated grow called the Holistic B.S.B.P. Memorial Grow Series < follow the link to the Mission HQ, to find out more. In this thread, I will be talking about my light set up and maybe ask the occasional question, in hopes one of you can answer it.

Here is a list of questions I still have no answer for yet - in case you want to help out

If you have comments or questions regarding my Light Set-Up specifically, feel free to ask them in this thread here, otherwise, if you have questions about the grow in general, go to the Q&A thread and find, or ask them there. If you have questions regarding other topics of my grow, find the specific thread - you will find all the links in the Mission HQ - and post your comments and questions there. Please be so kind and don't hijack this thread for your own grow or set-up, please don't flame or troll, be nice, have fun and don't forget to hydrate.

I have been interested in LEDs as grow light option for a while now, but I felt that LEDs always fell short a bit and just did not deliver well enough. This seems to have changed recently and so I am turning my attention to the Light Emitting Diods instead of the old and proven HPS I would use otherwise.
Yet, then again, looking at what the market currently has to offer, I am not very happy, especially when it comes to price, result and value comparison. But the technology is there, at least ahead of the commercial Light makers and thus I turn towards my Workbench and strap on the DIY tool belt, willing to do the self build option.

It's Hammer Time!


The Project Status Announcement Robot said:
The project is currently in a planning and testing stage. Several bits are pieces are acquired to test-build several elements that will play a part in the bigger picture. Currently, it is the cost factor for the cooling that is causing some headache, but I am probably overthinking it. Discuss below...
Click to expand...

The Plans

The current plan is to build a 4 x 4 CLU058 182W Citizen COB LED fixture with active water cooling. The fixture will have 9 x additional 730nm far red LEDs and 2 x UVB T5s. It will be remotely controlled and set to a program that simulates sunrise and sunset, and to run the UVB at peak time, when CO² injection occurs. You can find out more about the whole set-up here[link will follow].
16COBLayoutREALSIZE.jpg​
This is a quick schematic of the layout of the LEDs. The whole thing is designed to accompany a 120cm x 120cm (4ft x 4ft) grow chamber that holds 4 x 4 plants; with one of the COBs (the larger ones) per plant, directly above them - i will be using some lenses to spread and defuse it a bit. Each of the COBs has a copper heat sink on the back running through a series of radiators, which will be mounted on the top of the fxture, facing upward.

But I will be doing this with some style, using mainly higher end computer water cooling technology, especially for the fixtures, connections etc. I am struggling a bit with the costs, but i am also trying to figure out a functional way that is not too costly. For more details, check the post below where I go into the parts I am using and why.


Thread Index

 
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SimonMoon

SimonMoon

Well-Known Member
The Parts​

I will be editing this post as I do more research, post component lists when find the right parts, update it if things change etc., so make sure you check back regularly.


The LEDs

Since I am going down this road, I might as well get the best LEDs that we currently have available. As far as I can tell, the COB Citizen CLU058 182W Class seem to be the best in terms of output, par, spectrum etc.


I will be getting 16 of these babies. As soon as I have found a retailer that is... If you know one in Europe, please post a link.

And I am not sure yet on which 730nm LEDs i will be using, recommendations are welcome.
They will be running on a program, slowly gaining power, while the main light slowly gets darker, with the far red running for a couple of minutes alone, once the main light turned off; simulating the sunset

Also, if you know where I can get good UVB 2ft T5 bulbs, similar to the AgroMax Pure UV T5 Bulb with a relatively good output (24W+) and with 60% UVB/40%UVA.

There will also be a green night light in the room, to allow dark cycle visits - in case of emergencies - and maybe with an automatic timer, coupled to a camera taking a night image for time lapse and observation; pure curiosity...



The Electrics

I want to be able run the LEDs as hot as I can and as hot as the plants can take it - in reality, the strength will vary over their 12 hour period and run on a predefined program to simulate daylight. Suggestions are welcome

I will most likely, set the drivers off on a remote board, instead on the fixture directly - mainly because of the weight and additional heat. My mother room is right above and will be much cooler, so I will most likely have them up there. I also will have temperature sensors, inside the water at certain points and on the fixture, in contact with the LED, so we can monitor temperature changes and adjust the cooling - since we have PAR readers built into our grow channels, we will be able to monitor changes, degradation and correlation of output and heat.


The Cooling

The cooling has already shown to be a hassle. Originally, I wanted to cool two LEDs per radiator and pump, but a decent radiator, pump combo, with all the parts, they come out at about €200+ per pair, which is just way too much. Right now, I am looking more into a single continuous line, or maybe two or even four pumps and all of it in series, but use bigger radiators - 200mm instead of 120mm, and run 4 LEDs per radiator.

In the end, I want the cooling to sit on top of the whole light fixture, the radiators pointing upwards, with the fans and pumps adjusting to the temperature of the LEDs on the fly.

I will probably do some tests and see how hot those COBs actually get. Maybe I am planning way too much cooling, more than is necessary. Or maybe I am underestimating the whole thing and minimizing is not really an option - which would mean I would have to go with weaker lights, which is somewhat counterproductive to what I am trying to achieve.
 
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SimonMoon

SimonMoon

Well-Known Member
My Unanswered Questions

Please quote the Questions you want to answer in your reply! And Thank you for helping out! :clap:


  • Are the COB Citizen CLU058 182W Class really the best LEDs currently available?

  • Anybody know where I can order COB Citizen CLU058 182W Class LEDs online, in Europe?

  • What would be a good driver to use with the CLU058 182W LEDs, for maximum output?

  • Anybody know where I can get good 60-75° degree LED lens that would fit the Citizen CLU058?

  • I am looking for an affordable waterjet/laser cutting service, with simple online quotations, similar to "Big Blue Saw", but in Europe; anybody?

  • High End Far Red 730nm Chips? What's your recommendation?
 
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JorgeGonzales

JorgeGonzales

Well-Known Member
SimonMoon said:
I will be editing this post as I do more research, post component lists when find the right parts, update it if things change etc., so make sure you check back regularly.
Click to expand...
SimonMoon said:
The Build - coming soon
Click to expand...
SimonMoon said:
The Results - still a bit off, but it will come ;)
Click to expand...
Hey, I hate to be a wet blanket, but you only have 12 hours to edit at RIU, even top posts in a thread you started, because this forum is stuck in the stone ages. Your plan to update your posts, and keep them well-curated in the future is a good one, but it won't fly here. Sometimes new people think this forum has features that they take for granted elsewhere on the internet.

I don't know who is responsible for making the unilateral decision to never change the forum software or editing policies, but I will just thank @rollitup. Sorry to call you out, but this is what the start of a proper thread would look like.
 
coreywebster

coreywebster

Well-Known Member
SimonMoon said:
My Unanswered Questions

Please quote the Questions you want to answer in your reply! And Thank you for helping out! :clap:




  • Anybody know where I can order COB Citizen CLU058 182W Class LEDs online, in Europe?
Click to expand...
Primelight are a citizen distributer. They are in the UK, prices seem reasonable to me in comparison to places like digikey.
@Malocan might have some better ideas from other parts of Europe though.
@CobKits will certainly have valid opinions on some of your other questions
If you go on the Citi website they list all distributers.
 
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Malocan

Malocan

Well-Known Member
SimonMoon said:
Anybody know where I can order COB Citizen CLU058 182W Class LEDs online, in Europe?
Click to expand...
for uk: https://www.leds.co.uk/products
http://www.primelight.co.uk/led-light-sources/cob

for poland: http://www.tme.eu/en/katalog/#id_category=113365&s_field=artykul&s_order=ASC&visible_params=2,1088,754,1096,1113,2922,120,1101,1110,2456&used_params=2:52558;

but i know that robinccn from Northern Grow Lights sells too to europa and he has amazing price, you should ask him via email or here in forum (forumname robincnn)
https://northerngrowlights.com/collections/all
 
coreywebster

coreywebster

Well-Known Member
Malocan said:
for uk: https://www.leds.co.uk/products
http://www.primelight.co.uk/led-light-sources/cob

for poland: http://www.tme.eu/en/katalog/#id_category=113365&s_field=artykul&s_order=ASC&visible_params=2,1088,754,1096,1113,2922,120,1101,1110,2456&used_params=2:52558;

but i know that robinccn from Northern Grow Lights sells too to europa and he has amazing price, you should ask him via email or here in forum (forumname robincnn)
https://northerngrowlights.com/collections/all
Click to expand...
He does, bought mine Thursday, due tomorrow!
 
SimonMoon

SimonMoon

Well-Known Member
CobKits said:
not sure youre aware that RIU posts become uneditable after a day or two
Click to expand...
Thanks to
JorgeGonzales said:
Hey, I hate to be a wet blanket, but you only have 12 hours to edit at RIU, even top posts in a thread you started, because this forum is stuck in the stone ages. [...]
Click to expand...
I am now. I would have written some more, but since this is the case, I probably won't. Maybe I'll do it in a different forum. I want to thoroughly document my build from start to finish (there is way more than just the lights), because it would help me sort my thoughts, maybe get some helpful feedback and at the same time help others and maybe inspire them to do their own. And I am a writer, so this is something that comes natural to me... And if this is not the platform for this story, another might do.
 
JorgeGonzales

JorgeGonzales

Well-Known Member
SimonMoon said:
Thanks to

I am now. I would have written some more, but since this is the case, I probably won't. Maybe I'll do it in a different forum. I want to thoroughly document my build from start to finish (there is way more than just the lights), because it would help me sort my thoughts, maybe get some helpful feedback and at the same time help others and maybe inspire them to do their own. And I am a writer, so this is something that comes natural to me... And if this is not the platform for this story, another might do.
Click to expand...
If you do decide to go elsewhere, make sure you let us know where you land. I'd love to follow along.
 
SimonMoon

SimonMoon

Well-Known Member
JorgeGonzales said:
If you do decide to go elsewhere, make sure you let us know where you land. I'd love to follow along.
Click to expand...
i'll make a note if i find one. so far, all the growers forums - the larger ones i could find - all seem to have editing time limits. so i am still looking.

if anybody is aware of a goof forum where this is not the case, please let me know.
 
CobKits

CobKits

Well-Known Member
SimonMoon said:
I will probably do some tests and see how hot those COBs actually get. Maybe I am planning way too much cooling, more than is necessary.
Click to expand...
well.... at one cob per square foot you surely wont be running them over 50W ea.... which is nothing for an 1825 . in most cases you'll be running them at 35-40W ea as they are so damn efficient at 50W youll be well over 1000 umol ppfd at that point. id just get some pinfins and go to town. that would be somewhere around 800 input watts with less than 350W of heat to dissipate. easy peasy.
 
SimonMoon

SimonMoon

Well-Known Member
CobKits said:
well.... at one cob per square foot you surely wont be running them over 50W ea.... which is nothing for an 1825 . in most cases you'll be running them at 35-40W ea as they are so damn efficient at 50W youll be well over 1000 umol ppfd at that point. id jsut get some pinfins and go to town. that would be somewhere around 1600 input watts with less than 700W of heat to dissipate
Click to expand...
i thought about running them around about 80W if i can get the drivers. I would not have them run on that much for most of the time, but imitate a gradual growth with a peak at mid light cycle. Something like this:
light cycle.jpg

The reason I want to go a bit hotter, is having the option to test different settings etc - and i might want to use the light for other applications too. I also want to do a couple of tests with light distance. last but not least, i want to compensate for the loss i get from diffusion lenses.
But maybe they would still run fine on 80W with passive heat sinks, or maybe i might be able to reduce the amount of radiators.

My current cooling plan would look something like this:
16COBLayoutWaterflow.png

This would keep the costs more manageable...
Pump and Reservoir for ~150,-
Radiator+Fan 4 x for a total of ~400,- - maybe even just two?
for the heat sink blocks ~160,-
and another ~100,- for tubing and fittings etc.

Of course, if passive heat sinks would still suffice with my intended use (i really can't do the math on that), it would be way more affordable and would simplify a whole lot for me.
 
SimonMoon

SimonMoon

Well-Known Member
on second thought... it's more than 6 meters of pipe the water has to move through and the radiators add a whole lot of resistance, so either I use a rather strong pump, or more than one in series.
 
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