HPS, MH, Floros, Phillips Cermamic Metal Halide has 'em all beat.

Greetings fellow weed growers and lovers! I'm new here but not new to other forums. I've seen a ton of noobs asking about lighting and all anyone has to say is HPS, MH, Floro or LED. Time to stir some shit up and help some of you out and get you out of the dark ages.

LEDs won't be refined for a couple of years, I've seen grows fail, I tried them myself as supplemental lighting, and for clones. To say the least, I wasn't impressed. They need work, they may be the best thing out there at some point but for now, you're better off with floros in my opinion.

HPS lights are great for flowering and for you noobs out there, YES you can veg under them too! Every post about lighting here seems to tell people that you NEED MH for vegging and HPS for flowering, THEY ARE WRONG! I've had grows with just MH. While HPS is better for flowering, But there is something better then both of those bulb even if you pay the jacked up price for the "super duper specially enhanced king of all" version of either of those bulbs.

Forget all of those OVERPRICED "enhanced" horticulture bulb for both MH and HPS. People get hung up on how many watts and how many Lumens without understanding what they are for. It's advertising, it's sales, it's all about exaggerating something and making it seem more important than what they can be used as. The news does the same thing every night, exaggerates the story to get viewers to increase sales. I'll let you know now, I'll put a 400 watt CMH bulb up against their 600 watt "enhanced bulb" and embarrass them all, as for a 400 watt enhanced bulb it doesn't even come close.

Take a look at the comparison on the light spectrum chart, it doesn't take a expert to see the difference.

All of that and check out the second picture....... yeah, that bulb is lit and being held. The bulbs run that much cooler then HPS and MH bulbs. No air cooling hood needed! most of the heat goes vertical on the bulbs.

And check out the pics of the grows. As you see, they are different grows, the bulb is proven.

These bulbs run about $50
They work on standard HPS ballasts of the same wattage
They run much cooler which put them closer to the plants and makes them much more effective.
They range in watts up to 400 watts. there is no 600 or 1000 watt out there right now but they are coming.
Not for digital ballasts, they require a hard strike to fire up.

There's endless advantages to these bulbs.

Got Questions? Comments? Sarcasm? Hit me with it.

There are pics following a grow along from start to 4 weeks into flower in my gallery. The pics of the grows are not my grows, I grabber a verity of photos to show these bulb are alreay being used. One pic shows a CMH and HPS set up, the guy is doing a comparison, I'll let you know what he ends up with but you can see the color difference on each side of the trees.

I will post my grow soon. 6 DJ Short Grape Krush in a ebb & flow hydro set up in a cabinet under a 400 watt CMH.
I have a few that are at 2 weeks from seed now, the undersides of the leaves are really purple! I'll put my grow up in it own thread, I'd like to keep this thread to lighting.

I'm probably 4 months from going to CMH here as well. Huge thread over at IC, your info here, reading on the Phillips site, etc, have convinced me there isn't much to lose giving them a try.

I really want to know if you can actually grab the bulb...that is nuts...I can't even grab a 60 watt incandescent!

For us battling heat issues, these could be fantastic. Hope to still be around to share my results when the time comes.

But I'll definitely be following your threads and grows to get more insight.

Peace - OGH

hey man that is a great thread and some very interesting info. time to take another look at ALL the options....I wonder how readily available these might be, I'll have to check the local hangout....really, man this is good info. thanks so much for taking the initiative to bring this forward. cheers!

No digital ballast? really, not even the lumatek ballast?

definately going to keep track of this thread...

I found this on the bghydro.com forum:

Hi , thanks for the reply.
As you seem to know about ballasts, I do have some detailed questions/comments.

As far as i can see, the only benefit to using a "digital" ballast would be one of lumen maintenance. Ie the ballasts ability to get more out of the bulb as it ages
The improved efficiency is barely worth taking about and I don't believe that you really get higher lumen output per watt input. The manufacturers can claim all they want, but I've yet to really measure any appreciable difference in lumen output.

Designing a EB for HPS is relatively simple, ( note that I said relatively and not just plain simple) in that it doesn't present the same resonance issues that your typical MH bulbs does. Due to the shape of the arc tube, HPS will only have a few narrow bands of acoustic resonance . It would generally be safe for say a 400 Watt to operate around 35kHz given it's arc tubes particular dimensions. MH on the other hand is a minefield between 20KHz to 100KHz with wide bandwidth acoustic resonances ( determined by it's arc tube dimensions ( being that most are a short ,fat, with nice curved/elliptical ends that make a lovely tuned cavity over a wide frequency range) so it requires a much more complex control system to ensure that the bulb isn't being driven in a "sweet" spot until it explodes.
For MH EB's we are left with a few rules :
1) We can use a low frequency square wave to side step the resonance issues ( ala GE ... say 150Hz) but this will negate any efficiency increases that may or may not be present by running above 20KHz
2) we can operate between 20 - 100KHz and try to pick a magic frequency that will work with resonance . Very difficult and inherently unreliable due to subtle bulb to bulb differences.
3) If we choose to operate in this region we must implement some form of spread spectrum frequency modulation ( white noise perhaps) , to ensure that we don't allow resonance to occur within the bulb. This increases the cost/complexity of the ballast and in doing so decreases the reliability somewhat.
4) Operate the bulb at a high enough Frequency that we are out of the acoustic resonance region ( above 120KHz say ) but then that can lead to EMI/RF problems. And the higher the frequency generally the higher the switching losses which would decrease the efficiency.

All this makes me wonder how Galaxy have made their ballasts. Having a ballast run both HPS and MH would make me think that they have put some effort into designing a good ballast , but that was until it blew apart 2 Ceramic metal Halide retro fit bulbs . It was clear that they failed due to resonance issues as I could see it/hear it until they cracked the arc tube.
The Bulb ? Philips Master color CDM400S51/HOR/4K/Alto . These are wide spectrum CMH bulbs designed to operate in HPS ballasts. They were the only CMH 400W bulbs I could find that would operate in the Horizontal position and it seemed like a good fit for the Galaxy. The shape of the CMH arc tube was much closer to the HPS tubes so I figured that it would be alot less likely to have wide bandwidth acoustic resonance issues than say a Horiltux blue and it would required a special pulse ballast . Ie it should work with normal HPS ballasts.

Where did I go wrong in my hypothesis ? Is the Galaxy really just a HPS EB that might run the odd MH ? Sure seems so. If it did have spread spectrum ( in one form or another , then acoustic resonance should not have been a problem.
So far I've had a lumatek .... it was a high power RF transmitter and Lumatek's service was so pathetic it set a new low that I didn't think was
possible. Oh sure they've fixed the RF problems now.
Now this Galaxy that will vapourize CMH's ... are there any other ballasts that can actually do what they claim ?

I'm really begining to think that EBallasts still have a l o n g w a y to go before they have matured enough to be called a good replacement for magnetic ballasts ( in the higher power ranges atleast)

What frequency do Lumatek's run at ? ( the new an improved ones) Above 120KHz ? Below 20KHz ? somewhere in between... how are they controlling acoustic resonance with MH lamps?
Will the new Lumatek's run pulse start /Ceramic metal halides ? will they run the Philips MasterColor HPS/MH that I really want ?

Sorry for the rant, but I'm very frustrated at just having watched 120$ go up in smoke again !

Cheers

SB7

Seems like your right but, he didn't try the lumatek digital ballast yet. Anybody tried this setup?

I think new lighting is really cool... definitely keeping track of this thread...


edit: deleted the edit. just me being a dumbass.

I read through a very long thread on icmag about cmh bulbs, It seemed to me that the only people that were all about these bulbs were the people that were selling them. Seemed like alot of hype and not alot of results. One thing that I did find interesting that I did not know until I read thread was that digital ballasts are not UL approved. Thats kind of scary.

i found this, 39,199 lumens, 15,000 hours to half life, 4057k.....

Philips HPS Retro-White 400W

40$

this is a kickass link, all about all kinds of lights, from t5's to hps...

White Paper - Fluorescent Vs. Metal Halide in Hi-Low Bay Applications

going to go make a thread for this one...

Wow can you really touch that bulb without burning your fingers?
just that is enough to sell me on it, since I would be able to use it in small spaces.

MasterColor® HPS-Retro White 400W Ceramic Metal Halide Bulb by Horizen Hydroponics

100$ for a 400w...

I have a feeling that the pic of him holding the bulb was just after it came on. I would be willing to bet that you cant hold it after it been running for a minute.

Dats said:

I have a feeling that the pic of him holding the bulb was just after it came on. I would be willing to bet that you cant hold it after it been running for a minute.

Click to expand...

Quoted for Truth!

I could take a pic of me holding a hps bulb with it on as long as the light had just come on and I took the pic quickly.

Being that I run 2 x 400 HPS side by side, and was born a skeptic , I'm looking forward to giving one of these a shot right next to a new HPS when the time comes for new bulbs in 3-4 months.

From my background in reef tanks I learned to hate electronic ballasts, so I only I heavy duty magnetics at this point.

Really I'm not looking for the CMH to grow plants better...though that would be great I'm really am interested in the heat displacement. If I can knock by closet temp down by 3-6 degrees simply by using these, without losing growth, I'll be a happy camper.

Time will tell - OGH

great thread

i could use some temp control come spring, and will also be ready for a new light soon.

Dats said:

I have a feeling that the pic of him holding the bulb was just after it came on. I would be willing to bet that you cant hold it after it been running for a minute.

Click to expand...

It's not me holding that bulb but, I have a 400 watt here. I'm setting up my cabinet now, I'll be able to tell you from personal experience how hot they run in a few days and if I can actually hold it. The part that is a fact is that the bulb runs a lot cooler then HPS or MH bulbs. By the way, I don't sell them that's why I didn't post a like to where you can buy them, I don't represent anyone and I'm not making anything off of the info I provided. Phillips makes them and they are also on the Venture Lighting website. I bought the Phillips so I don't know about the one from Venture Seems to me that you're a little closed minded...... Just my opinion.

You only need one bulb to cover th MH and HPS spectrum
They are less then half the cost of the enhanced bulbs
They run at a cooler temp
You can put them much closer to the canopy
.....really dude, where's the hype? If you prefer, stay with the lighting you have, there are plenty of people out there that are looking for solid facts, do you have any? or are you just stating your opinion and ranting a little? Do you have anything to say that you can back up about lighting performance? Any comparision charts/graphs? Mine are posted, let's see what you have before you knock them.

oldgrayhair said:

Being that I run 2 x 400 HPS side by side, and was born a skeptic , I'm looking forward to giving one of these a shot right next to a new HPS when the time comes for new bulbs in 3-4 months.

From my background in reef tanks I learned to hate electronic ballasts, so I only I heavy duty magnetics at this point.

Really I'm not looking for the CMH to grow plants better...though that would be great I'm really am interested in the heat displacement. If I can knock by closet temp down by 3-6 degrees simply by using these, without losing growth, I'll be a happy camper.

Time will tell - OGH

Click to expand...

As I said, I'm getting my cabinet set up or the next few days, hopefully by the weekend I'll be able to try it out inside the cab and see what temps I'm getting, between the HPS and CMH bulb. My cabinet is 36wX30hX31D and I'm not using an air cooled hood. A 4 inch inline fan on a Speedster is what I'll be working with to start off. I'll see see if I can 400 watts into that tight of a space and run at decent temp.