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Dr.J20

Dr.J20

Well-Known Member
AdmiralSurf said:
A fellow grower friend just received his Mars II 900 and I can't wait to get up to OC and see it. He's already reported that the light seems solidly built and there are no signs of metal shavings in the unit. To be honest, I wonder about these claims of metal shavings anyways. The member who claimed this seems to have been banned already for having multiple accounts. Is it possible he was a plant by a competitor? Sounds completely paranoid, but you'd be surprised how many prospective LED customers come to these types of forums before making their purchasing decisions. Please don't hesitate to correct me if my information is inaccurate.

I writing this to alert anyone in the market for an LED light that they should be careful to fully vet any recommendations given out in this thread with multiple information sources prior to their purchase.


Don't make your purchase decision solely based off what someone in this thread recommends you do. Use multiple information sources!

​

I should state that I believe RIU to be the best canna forums out there, but that doesn't mean this place is completely free of guerrilla marketing. I haven't read every post on the forum, so there is also a high possibility that I am still missing information which could change my view entirely. Call me paranoid, call me an asshole. I don't care really. What I do care about is accurate information. Every single canna forum out there seems to be infiltrated by LED marketing folks, or people who may be receiving perks to help with marketing. There's also certainly some fanboy-ism going on. Either way, you can't truly trust anything you read on the internet anyways.


Why am I so skeptical about this thread you ask? Well the same 2 or 3 people always seem to chime in (usually within minutes) when asked for an LED recommendation here, and they almost always recommend Area 51 panels. This seems a bit fishy to me--especially since these same people don't seem to have any really good grow journals of their own to back their claims. In fact, I've noticed the same people can also be found throughout the site chumming it up with the owner of A51. I'm not making any accusations, but perhaps there is more going on here...

This thread is jock-full of recommendations that regularly trash LED panels as being "Chinese", when in fact there are almost zero LED panels that are 100% USA-made. Almost everything you buy is made or assembled in China these days. Panels aren't automatically bad just because they are Chinese made, ship from China, or don't have "Top-bin" CREE-brand LEDs anyhow. A lot of this is pure marketing BS directly from LED manufacturers. Performance gains from supposed "Top-bin" LEDS are usually only significant enough to be noticed with some sort of digital measuring device, and will not have a huge impact on your harvest results. To be clear: Some really good stuff can and does come out of China, and USA-made doean't always mean best-made either.


Anyhow I'm disregarding earlier recommendations and am purchasing a Mars II 400 for myself today. I'll be putting it up against the XGS-190 with some measuring equipment and a small grow-off of sorts (they'll unfortunately have to be in the same room together). To me the $200 is totally worth risking to settle this issue, and find out definitively if you can grow good canna with a light at HALF the price of these 'Tesla-quality' lights.


Truth has a way of surfacing eventually.

Peace.
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some really hard to parse claims here. the only one I'd be interested in fleshing out is how you propose to make direct comparisons between lights in a given grow without the kind of laboratory setup required for control groups etc. Also, to be fair, seems like you'd need to do such a test with clones rooted under a third light. Anyhow, i'd be careful about knocking the performance of a light based on a presumption that because you need expensive "digital" equipment to quantitatively assess performance differences, and you don't have said equipment, that the differences won't affect harvest--quality or quantity. Anyhow, in my time at RIU i've found the most solid community members approach growing with a scholar's curiosity and thirst for scientific accuracy. If your apollos and mars leds from amazon kick ass, people will want to hear that as much as they'll want to hear negative reports. Its all in the spirit of finding the ways to grow the best plants--whatever that means to you (biggest yield, strongest, best flavors, all of the above etc.,). So, thanks for taking the plunge and testing out the mars 400! let us know how it stacks up!
Be easy,
Dr.J :leaf:
 
AdmiralSurf

AdmiralSurf

Member
Dr.J20 said:
some really hard to parse claims here. the only one I'd be interested in fleshing out is how you propose to make direct comparisons between lights in a given grow without the kind of laboratory setup required for control groups etc. Also, to be fair, seems like you'd need to do such a test with clones rooted under a third light. Anyhow, i'd be careful about knocking the performance of a light based on a presumption that because you need expensive "digital" equipment to quantitatively assess performance differences, and you don't have said equipment, that the differences won't affect harvest--quality or quantity. Anyhow, in my time at RIU i've found the most solid community members approach growing with a scholar's curiosity and thirst for scientific accuracy. If your apollos and mars leds from amazon kick ass, people will want to hear that as much as they'll want to hear negative reports. Its all in the spirit of finding the ways to grow the best plants--whatever that means to you (biggest yield, strongest, best flavors, all of the above etc.,). So, thanks for taking the plunge and testing out the mars 400! let us know how it stacks up!
Be easy,
Dr.J :leaf:
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Excellent Response!

I'm not attempting to make any big claims at all yet. This is 100% speculation. Regarding my statement about top-bin parts though (which I agree should properly have been stated as theory): It just seems like common sense that the difference between a few uMols, or a couple points of Par output per LED, aren't going to give you a "huge" impact on your final harvest. I think a light meter will help settle some of this claim. The Mars II lights come with more LEDs for the money, so theoretically they should be brighter even with the lower-grade chips. But who knows until actually tested...

Also when I receive the new light I'll try to be as scientific as possible when it comes to the testing phase. This includes using as proper of a control and testing environment as I can muster.

It's only the grow-off which'd be much less likely to be scientific--mostly to do space constraints.
 
Dr.J20

Dr.J20

Well-Known Member
AdmiralSurf said:
It just seems like common sense that the difference between a few uMols, or a couple points of Par output per LED, aren't going to give you a "huge" impact on your final harvest.
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Indeed, it may SEEM like COMMON SENSE and this is precisely why it should remain a hypothesis until you've confirmed it. Also, again, how are you defining "huge difference?" Because if those uMols are the difference between maximum terpene, flavinoid, and cannabinoid expression, I'd like to have them on my side.

Harkening back to the original thrust of the post I was responding to, vis-a-vis area 51, I have to place some kind of confidence in the market: If there weren't a demand for better leds for horticulture, I doubt Jeff would have gone out on a limb just based on the quasi-conspiratorial theory that he could drum up enough market share by trolling canna fora and planting marketers in them. I'm guessing that A51s work well enough to get the rep from the people here. I know if i get an xgs and it blows shit out of the water, I'll be back up here repping the hell out of it, just like i did when I got my PAR t5 grow dialed in a couple years back and started swearing by zoomed flora suns. most of the top notch led growers on here are fairly open, in what i've read, about their opinions, as well. Many will mention the other top quality LED manufacturers, and it may just be that A51s prices, worldwide free shipping, meet more of the demographic that pops up at RIU looking to buy a light. In any case, I appreciate that you're willing to do both the grow off and the more scientific testing (to best of your ability obvoiusly). Thats the kind of positive information we can all learn from. Make sure to be as detailed as you can with that scienfitic run too!
Be easy,
Dr.J
 
hyroot

hyroot

Well-Known Member
those of use who bash the chinese leds actually have owned them. China does not have quality control standards and most companies there use lower quality leds and drive the led's to the max and they end up failing sooner than later. I did par t5 for 2 years and got sick of bulb replacement. I had gone through 2 apollos, one I sold right away to get a larger one then that one failed. All my equipment was stolen I was back to par t5 for a batch. Now using induction which is far better than anything I've use so far. I do have an area 51 sgs which is proven to have better results than the apollos. I've yet to use it. I'm waiting to grab seeds at the cup. Its not marketing BS we all already went through all the trial and error of chinese led's. If I were to buy chinese I would get evergrow. The a51 casing is from china, the rest is U.S. made. Apache is U.S made

chinese leds will give good results but use more watts to cover a smaller area. The problem with chinese led's is CHINESE LED'S DO NOT LAST


if buying a mars why not get it from the manufacture of LG solutions. its far cheaper.
 
PSUAGRO.

PSUAGRO.

Well-Known Member
Wow.......I'm on my phone so I'll make this quick......NO one ever said that cheap Chinese panels can't grow some fine cannabis!!! The problem is for HOW LONG?? Longevity with these panels is an issue that can be seen over and over in hereif you bothered to look! Before you start shitting on this thread, maybe you should have read most of it.

The led fixtures most of us recommend don't usually FAIL....high quality parts isn't all about better performance, it also means the manufacturer cares about their product, sharing detailed spec sheets and so forth. Which you won't get from any Alibaba seller ! Leds are an investment and some like not to deal with "issues" during a grow.

Most veteran growers on here will always recommend DIY if you have the skills and time.....their is nothing better

Btw I talk to Tesla;-) and he told me you remind him of Edison! Wanting to push cheap and disposable light tech.....lol


Edit.......looks like Hyroot beat me to it^^.....my Bastard phone
 
Chronikool

Chronikool

Well-Known Member
hyroot said:
cree and nichia are both U.S. made.
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Whilst Cree is a US company...im not they make all their LEDs in the USA....? And Nichia is a Japanese company...

but i get what you are saying....Quality control is top notch from these companies... :)
 
hyroot

hyroot

Well-Known Member
Chronikool said:
Whilst Cree is a US company...im not they make all their LEDs in the USA....? And Nichia is a Japanese company...

but i get what you are saying....Quality control is top notch from these companies... :)
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you are right on Nichia. at least nichia is not chinese. Cree head quarters is in North Carolina and built in Santa Barbara, Ca. they do have offices in 12 different countries though
 
Greengenes707

Greengenes707

Well-Known Member
Japanese are well known for their electronics and higher quality compared to the chinese.
Nichia is the #1 supplier of led's in the world. They have been on top since the beginning of white chips...which they invented. Just look into them and you will see they are ranked there for a reason.

A lot of cree's are made in their Huizhou, China factory. Cree makes quality and they are based out of the US. But not pure US made for every cree. They are the same materials and process, and that's the special part about cree, so should be relatively just as good as the true american cree's, but if we want to get picky...you know.

I have said this many times...It isn't the brand of lights we hype, we say those top brands because those brands meet the lighting requirements of the plants best. µmols readings are important, and the footprint charts are too. That shows you the performance capabilities to meet the plants lighting requirements. All that µmols stuff is based on real quantified information. Yields are directly related to the amount of light a plant received. The foot print charts show how much are will be within the requirements. Not every part of the canopy will be at the "requirement level", but having as much as possible will give the best results...the footprint charts show that.

If a light meets the the requirements then it would get my nod of approval no matter the brand or origin. I will have some further questions probably, but quantified performance speaks very loudly to the educated.

700-1000µmols peak and 250-350 outer 4x4 edge is what I use as a base requirement range.

 
vladimiroslav

vladimiroslav

Well-Known Member
Admiral Surf, I was following the topled thread on the other forum where the metal shavings pics have been showed first, so I can assure you they were posted overthere and have been deleted. Now, I have another concern about topled, as I stated myself overthere:

Question from me "Also, I check your site regulary and I saw today that you changed the coverage area of the lights, the 192x3 reflector went from 2.5x2.5 to 4X4, and it looks like some others have been updated aswell. What happened? :-) "

Answer from Sara " I have a excel file, and I put 64x3w's coverage under 192xx3w. :( "

So I guess that "corrected file" wasnt the good one either because since that post in July, the coverage area still grew to 4.4 x 4.4 as stated on their site:

LED Output Power: 192*3watt
Draw Power:350~400W
Dimension:560x477x50mm
Voltage: AC85~265V
View Angle of leds: 90° /120
Lifespan 50,000-100,000hours
N.W.: 11KG G.W.: 10KG
Coverage :4.4'x4.4' Standard

Topled? No fucking way. Ever.
 
AdmiralSurf

AdmiralSurf

Member
PSUAGRO. said:
Wow.......I'm on my phone so I'll make this quick......NO one ever said that cheap Chinese panels can't grow some fine cannabis!!! The problem is for HOW LONG?? Longevity with these panels is an issue that can be seen over and over in hereif you bothered to look! Before you start shitting on this thread, maybe you should have read most of it.

Btw I talk to Tesla;-) and he told me you remind him of Edison! Wanting to push cheap and disposable light tech.....lol
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Bad Karma said:
If Admiral Smurf wants to learn the hard way, that is his choice.
But the constant jabs at all of us, like we tricked him into buying an Area 51 light, that he can still return, BTW.
That kind of bullshit shows just how childish you are.
If you've been paying attention, I even complemented you (in another thread) for sticking it out around here, but that was obviously a mistake on my behalf.
I just hope the TopLED light is actually safe, and doesn't set his house on fire, even if he is a dick.
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I post some reviews, question claims with little supporting evidence, and several people around here act like I took a shit on the pope's hat. Despite what some seem to think, I didn't come here to ignite a flame-war. I came to find the best LED bang for the buck. So what if I "learn the hard way"? If that's really the case, then I'm doing others on this forum a favor with a follow-up investigation to validate others' claims. What's to say some products don't improve over time anyhow? Hell I bet I could buy 4 cheap panels for the price of 1 XGS and double or even triple my harvest with the same amount of money. The difference in yield alone with the cheaper panels could pay for a new panel every fucking harvest. So what if a light goes bad every couple years?! Buy the inexpensive light, maybe check for metal shavings, and run that shit as long as it'll go!

And yes I'm now completely disappointed with my Area 51 XGS-190. It's an expensive piece of hardware, and the owner of the company is a complete jerk. This is a guy who publicly has alcohol+anger issues, and enjoys watching sweaty men in speedos pretend-fighting. You really think he started his company out of a puritanical desire to help you grow economically? FACK no. He wants to make more money so he can buy that Tesla he's been eyeing. Yes he posts here, and you're kidding yourself if you think it doesn't affect his sales numbers. I'd send the light back, but I think I'll auction it off on ebay for fun. Perhaps I could pull a pretty dollar just based on the pseudo-infamy I've so quickly generated around here.

Also a side note:
This Bad Karma guy is the biggest BSer of them all. He always the first to bash other companies based on what he's read people say in forums. Where's your grow journals bro? And what's with the horrid avatar too? You trying to be intimidating? Also what grown men are that into WWE wrestling?
 
Shwagbag

Shwagbag

Well-Known Member
He does make a valid point I think regarding yield. But I don't think we should even be discussing yield for LED's relating to commercial growing (i.e. panels paying for themselves in superior yield in one grow). I haven't seen a commercial grow yet from start to finish with LED's, and I've still seen no evidence to support that it would be worth it. Not to say they're not out there, they could be. Most of the grows (not all) I see on RIU are sportin' sick looking torched out plants with fluffy buds, followed by LED advocates beating off to their mediocre yields and stroking the egos of the grower for their accomplishment of what some experienced growers would consider hash bud at best.

Subjective, realistic advocates of LED tech can see the improvements over the past couple years, and WANT the lights to work as well as the alternatives, but also realize the fact that they just don't do it, yet. Lets be realistic, who is going to drop 10k on these "name brand" panels to do a SMALL commercial grow? Nobody in their right mind, even if they have excessive amounts of capital to work with. The same goes for the knockoffs IMO. It just doesn't really make much sense to drop a large sum of money on any LED tech until its tested on at least a small scale, and unless side by sides are done to show that "ours does what theirs does for less" it doesn't make much sense to buy anything lol.

Another major problem with LED journals is that you just don't know who to trust. When I see an impressive LED journal I immediately question it, because I've seen so many complete failures. The market has really given itself a bad name with all of the cheating and unprofessional PR.

WeJuana did some really nice grows testing various panels. Those are probably the best LED grows I've seen on here. I was quite impressed at how he was able to get the most from each different light. Not only did he show the lights were mostly adequate, he also showed that he has respectable gardening skills, something some of these small closet grows are lacking, which makes it even more difficult to gauge the effectiveness of the lighting. But then again, how do I know he was being honest?

Just my two cents, take it or leave it.
 
Dr.J20

Dr.J20

Well-Known Member
hyroot said:
those of use who bash the chinese leds actually have owned them. China does not have quality control standards and most companies there use lower quality leds and drive the led's to the max and they end up failing sooner than later. I did par t5 for 2 years and got sick of bulb replacement. I had gone through 2 apollos, one I sold right away to get a larger one then that one failed. All my equipment was stolen I was back to par t5 for a batch. Now using induction which is far better than anything I've use so far. I do have an area 51 sgs which is proven to have better results than the apollos. I've yet to use it. I'm waiting to grab seeds at the cup. Its not marketing BS we all already went through all the trial and error of chinese led's. If I were to buy chinese I would get evergrow. The a51 casing is from china, the rest is U.S. made. Apache is U.S made

chinese leds will give good results but use more watts to cover a smaller area. The problem with chinese led's is CHINESE LED'S DO NOT LAST


if buying a mars why not get it from the manufacture of LG solutions. its far cheaper.
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admiral surf, this should probably put the matter to rest--can't be any clearer than Hyroot stated it: these lights are investments; why invest in something that may only last 1/2 grows, and has a greater probability of setting your house on fire?
anywho, back to waiting for xgs to come back in stock!
be easy phriends! :leaf:
 
Dr.J20

Dr.J20

Well-Known Member
Shwagbag said:
respectable gardening skills, something some of these small closet grows are lacking, which makes it even more difficult to gauge the effectiveness of the lighting. But then again, how do I know he was being honest?

Just my two cents, take it or leave it.
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while its clear from earlier posts that I'm more of a fan of LED tech than shwagbag, I do agree that he points out the multi-variate nature of growing. Without properly isolating a single variable (e.g., light source type), you don't really know what you're testing. I don't think shwaggy was as kind to some LED growers in his post, but hey, like he says, take it or leave it. Personally, I hate to cast aspersions on anyone else's decisions about how to engage their grows but Admiral surf did point out in his response that we need to have as many honest reports, including the failures, that we can have. If it turns out that he comes back and says "gee, you guys were totally right about longevity, but i was totally right about being able to yield enough to keep buying new cheap panels" then that may tell us somehting. What's better, when looking through his detailed journals, someone interested in something completely unrelated may find his or her answer in Admiral surf's journal.That would be the value to doing htings we have seen before, like testing all those chinese panels.

Shwag, i think you actually start to answer your own supposition as well: No commercial size grow has used this tech all the way through because the alternatives are still better options. When you enter a purely commercial grow, you get saddled with a lot more of an economic demand since turning a profit is what your on about---perhaps, if you're a good company, not your sole goal, but still, as a commercial operation, the bottom line becomes significantly more important.
BUT
this is a forum populated by a majority of personal growers. Hence, LED technology may provide the solution to a complex set of variables that each grower has to contend with. Whether a state's laws allow the activity of growing, initial cost, goals for growing, purposes for growing--e.g, if you need to supply four or five patients with consistent quality and quantity, LED may be too much of a fledgling tech. for your yield/time demands.

To your point about not being able to assess the honesty of both LED companies and posts on fora: on the one hand, without the ability to test and retest any claim about anything in the world of which you don't already possess an expert level of understanding, you will be at the mercy of your faith--so to speak. Better said, its your critical reasoning ability that enables you to differentiate between bullshit and "truth." So while you may not be able to KNOW, definitively, the truth of a claim, it is possible to make your way through these linguistic representations without writing off any on the fallacious argument that because the claimant has an interest in you believing his or her claim, he or she is necessarily employing subterfuge to achieve that goal.

Anywho, be easy,
Dr. J
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Wow. I pity the noob looking for LED guidance when they click on this thread

Music to reflect upon: Eagles Hotel California- where you can check in, but you can never leave... and we are programmed to believe/deceive
 
Shwagbag

Shwagbag

Well-Known Member
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate any information in this thread and within the forum for that matter. Whether the grow is successful or not, it serves the community.

But I still think people dropping G's on these things based on what's seen on this forum is just crazy.

I'm going to remove myself from this thread as of now. I don't have anything to gain and certainly nothing to offer other than cynicism.

Good luck to everyone as they continue to learn and share!
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Just make sure you keep that avatar posted where I can continue to enjoy it

Shwagbag said:
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate any information in this thread and within the forum for that matter. Whether the grow is successful or not, it serves the community.

But I still think people dropping G's on these things based on what's seen on this forum is just crazy.

I'm going to remove myself from this thread as of now. I don't have anything to gain and certainly nothing to offer other than cynicism.

Good luck to everyone as they continue to learn and share!
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