I'm Not Against Theology, I'm For Free Thinking!

Zaehet Strife

Well-Known Member
Final Exam
5/9/11
1. Socratic Method; what is it and what are the advantages and disadvantages of using it?

The Socratic Method is a way of getting someone to question their own thinking, or way of thinking, in order to get them to perceive something in a different way. That is how I understand it, in which i could be wrong. I think a lot of people take offense to this method. With this method you are attempting to make people question their beliefs or belief system. It doesn’t matter who you are, if someone criticizes your beliefs you tend to get offended. A lot of times people get offended even when it was not their intention. To ask someone to even think about the possibility that what they have believed all their life might not be true…is outrageous to them. But you have to think about it in a different light I think. Its people like that who just haven’t had the opportunity for their minds to mature. It’s not a bad thing, it just hasn’t happened yet. Think of it like this; it’s like trying to explain to a ten year old what it is like to be an adult for one day. It’s impossible, you can’t just expect to be able to understand what that’s like if you don’t have the experience yet.

I think the Socratic Method is fun, I like to debate about things. I especially like to debate about things when it makes you question yourself, and why you think the way you do. I think it’s disrespectful to many people, but I personally don’t think so. I think it’s imperative that we question everything for ourselves, no matter what it is. I think it works, but for very few people.


2.“
Do not attempt to change the way things are” –I think that means who need to accept our circumstances in life. We need to accept the things that we cannot change. The only thing we can change is ourselves and we may change our perception at any given time, it just takes concentration and free thought.

“Do not grasp at earthly pleasures for eventually they will cease to exist and all that is left is the Tao” -
Things, materials, objects… what is value? What does value truly mean? What is truly important in life? Do things really make you happy? Are things there only to distract ourselves, from facing our true selves? What would happen if everything you have was gone tomorrow? Could you live? Could you survive? All that is left in the end is not your physical body, but your consciousness, and what you have made of it.

“It is not living that matters, but living rightly” To be able to fully grasp this statement, you must be able know how to live rightly. I’m not sure if anyone knows how to do that perfectly, I’m not even sure if it’s possible. All I know is that I know what love is, I know what feels is like. I know that the closest thing that could ever come to living rightly would be to live with only true intentions of love. We can try, we can always try. You must understand that love loves everything, there are no exceptions. Love loves the good, and the bad. You must also remember, every single individuals perception of good and bad is different… wouldn’t that make good and bad the same thing? Except that they are just two sides of the same coin?

3. Logotheraphy; finding meaning to ones lives; choosing one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances.
That is the question isn’t it, what is the meaning of life? People forget, or have never had time to stop and think about it. We are too busy searching for something else, when we have everything we have ever needed within ourselves. What is the meaning of MY life? That is the question you need to ask yourself. It is different for everyone. That is so crazy for me, we all come from the same exact “stuffs” but yet we are so completely and utterly different in every aspect. The way you think about a certain situation, will judge how you react to the situation. If your meaning of life is to spread the word of love, optimism would probably be a very valuable asset. I think the way you perceive life is directly related to what you want to get out of life.

What do you want to get out of life? Do you want wealth, fame, good fortune, good health, toys, shoes, things… To love? To teach good morals? To instill a sense of freedom? To instill a sense of separation between body and soul, consciousness, mind, whichever word you would like to choose. To instill a sense of balance between ourselves, others, and nature.

When you figure out what life means to you. What you want to get out of life. That is what dictates your perception about life, which in turn dictates your attitude in any given set of circumstances.

4. “god is dead!” this comment was uttered by a most misunderstood philosopher.
We are now beginning to awaken from our own self-induced realities. We are now beginning to think for ourselves, instead of thinking like the majority. Questions that have no answers…questions people say they know, we know you cannot know. Theology teaches us morals and values. It molds the foundation of our very lives. What will happen when this is gone? What how people react when they realize the stories they have been told their whole lives are not true, they are man-made… that they are just stories. Will you not only lose faith in your idea of self, but is it possible you will lose faith in your morals and values?
I too used to believe in a story once, I was raised in a Christian home. Something must happen for you to question your faith, for you to question what you have been told is true your whole life. To perceive things through the real truth, not your truth. It’s a scary thing, giving up the lie. To come to an understanding that there are some things that cannot be known by us. I think that’s one of the most important lessons any human can ever experience. That there are some things humans do not have the ability to know, straight up. If you try to tell yourself that you know, that’s called self-willed ignorance. People are happy living in their ignorance… I’ve come to terms with that. It was very hard for me at first, but eventually you realize you can’t change anyone’s perception. I have to be happy because I’m awake, and I have just begun to see the cosmos in a new truth. Attempting to see things for what they truly are, not the way I WANT to see them.

I would like to think that there is a creator, or a god, or magic or divine force somewhere in existence. But I’ve come to the realization that no human has ever seen this, we have only ever seen this in our imaginations. I know now that I cannot give shape or name to what we humans have been calling “god” but I would like to think that there is a reason for life, that there is a reason for existence. The answer to that question lies within that same something or nothing… that we could never even begin to understand.

The answer- “I do not know, and I will never again presume to do so” for if I did I would then go back to sleep, and after you awaken it is not possible to sleep again… to perceive things the way you did before. People do not need theology to teach them morality, we need unity…we need harmony.

Everything said is all just my personal opinion, coming from my own perceptions
 

plantvision

Active Member
Zahet, marking this to read later. I have been looking at some of your posts, very interesting.

You seem like a fellow seeker of knowledge, keep up the good work.
 

Zaehet Strife

Well-Known Member
thanks plant vision that means alot bro. little tommy... yes there is so much suffering. its so sad to think about it, theres so much i want to do to help. as contradicting and selfish as this may sound to many people, i must work to heal my inner self before i gain the ability to help heal the outside world. there's also this thing called ego, which makes helping people with set perceptions almost impossible. leading by example is all you can do, maybe someday someone will look at you, and wonder how someone who owns so little... can be so damned happy!

its so hard, im still struggling to not see things through my own made up personal perceptions...but to see things how they truly are.
 

Little Tommy

Well-Known Member
That is the big secret. I try to process rather than react to situations and things. Having more stuff is certainly not the answer.
 

Zaehet Strife

Well-Known Member
thanks everyone, means a lot! been working really hard on this stuff lately... been trying to make a few changes in how i live my life.
 

Zaehet Strife

Well-Known Member
i think that means, if you are given the gift of life here on this planet... you will experience suffering no matter what.
 

Omgwtfbbq Indicaman

Well-Known Member
ion my honest opinion, that is a conflict of interest. theologians live of the closed-mindedness and ignorance of their followers. its a fact.
 

iNVESTIGATE

Well-Known Member
Final Exam
5/9/11
[/SIZE][/FONT]Do not attempt to change the way things are” –I think that means who need to accept our circumstances in life. We need to accept the things that we cannot change. The only thing we can change is ourselves and we may change our perception at any given time, it just takes concentration and free thought.

Everything said is all just my personal opinion, coming from my own perceptions

lol, wtffffff ....ummmmmmmmm. No, no, no, no, no. DO NOT just accept the way the world is. Especially when the world's idea of sustaining life today is inspiring and congratulating so much hate/fear fueled ideology & perpetuating death.

Nice freethinkin' bub.. lol Sarcasm. Like i hope what i just quoted was.........
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Final Exam
5/9/11
1. Socratic Method; what is it and what are the advantages and disadvantages of using it?

Think of it like this; it’s like trying to explain to a ten year old what it is like to be an adult for one day. It’s impossible, you can’t just expect to be able to understand what that’s like if you don’t have the experience yet.


That's a good analogy.

I also appreciate the Socratic Method, it's the foundation to the scientific method, and a key part of accurate, unbiased science.

I think it’s imperative that we question everything for ourselves, no matter what it is.


+rep, the kicker to this one being; What would an omniscient god prefer more, its creation to blindly obey and not genuinely question its origins and follow through with the correct answers, believe what it's told by an ancient book, or actual inquiry into existence? I try to think of it like a father would, after all, that's what He's supposed to be, right, a father type figure? Wouldn't you want your kids to know what's true, regardless of... anything else? Isn't that the most important thing?
2.“ Do not attempt to change the way things are” –I think that means who need to accept our circumstances in life. We need to accept the things that we cannot change. The only thing we can change is ourselves and we may change our perception at any given time, it just takes concentration and free thought.


I see your point, and to a degree, I agree, but I think people can be changed, the reason they're mostly in the dark about reality is because outside influences condition them to accept their place on this Earth because things will be better, and all of us want to feel that cosmic sense of justice, and know it's right, so most of us trick ourselves into believing it is, and that's enough.

People can be changed, how were you enlightened? How did you reason your way through the web of deceit? One has to have the will, the actual want to know, but that comes from within, and even theists are susceptible to it.

“Do not grasp at earthly pleasures for eventually they will cease to exist and all that is left is the Tao” - Things, materials, objects… what is value? What does value truly mean? What is truly important in life? Do things really make you happy? Are things there only to distract ourselves, from facing our true selves? What would happen if everything you have was gone tomorrow? Could you live? Could you survive? All that is left in the end is not your physical body, but your consciousness, and what you have made of it.


All great questions for someone to ask themselves.

“It is not living that matters, but living rightly” To be able to fully grasp this statement, you must be able know how to live rightly. I’m not sure if anyone knows how to do that perfectly, I’m not even sure if it’s possible. All I know is that I know what love is, I know what feels is like. I know that the closest thing that could ever come to living rightly would be to live with only true intentions of love. We can try, we can always try. You must understand that love loves everything, there are no exceptions. Love loves the good, and the bad. You must also remember, every single individuals perception of good and bad is different… wouldn’t that make good and bad the same thing? Except that they are just two sides of the same coin?


Oh boy, my exgf would tell you I haven't the cloudiest idea of what 'love' is, and I'd have to agree with her at this point in my life... but I do know one thing about love; it's intentions are always pure, so that makes it universally good. I've always been a firm believer in the impossibility of the concept of objective truth, but if there is anything that could possibly be objectively true, it's that 'love' is good, that, I think, we can all agree on, whether your a psychopath who murders innocent people in your spare time or stoners like you and I on internet forums...

What is the meaning of MY life?


(the rest of that post was great, but this point is KEY!)This is one of the most important questions I think we can ask ourselves, and so many fucking people don't even recognize the distinction. The 'MY' is PROFOUNDLY important. It is what separates us as individuals while uniting us as a species because we can all consciously ask ourselves the exact same question.

When you figure out what life means to you. What you want to get out of life. That is what dictates your perception about life, which in turn dictates your attitude in any given set of circumstances.


Agree.

Theology teaches us morals and values. It molds the foundation of our very lives. What will happen when this is gone? What how people react when they realize the stories they have been told their whole lives are not true, they are man-made… that they are just stories. Will you not only lose faith in your idea of self, but is it possible you will lose faith in your morals and values?


No. I believe people can learn good morals and ethics. If you really think about it, the morals most faiths teach are already common sense, but they also include things that are actually pretty immoral, which go against our common sense. How does the believer explain that?

Through a system of educating people, which goes all throughout society, not only in the household with proper parenting (which in itself seems an impossible task), but in the community and state and country and planet at large. Everyone is responsible for knowing what's right and doing it.

That there are some things humans do not have the ability to know


...yet.

But again, I think the distinction should be noted, ..."there are some things that humans do not have the ability to know, and there are some things that most humans simply do not want to know (the truth about anyway)"

We know things, we know a lot of things... it's just that most people don't believe them. Their ignorance clouds their judgment and they let the fairy tales and imagination take over. In a society that rewards this behavior and conditions the rest of us to accept it, the stage is set for an unusual outcome... and us crazy atheists have to sit back and accept it...

straight up. If you try to tell yourself that you know, that’s called self-willed ignorance. People are happy living in their ignorance… I’ve come to terms with that. It was very hard for me at first, but eventually you realize you can’t change anyone’s perception. I have to be happy because I’m awake, and I have just begun to see the cosmos in a new truth. Attempting to see things for what they truly are, not the way I WANT to see them.


You're certainly right, that's a hard pill to swallow. I still haven't fully accepted it yet, though I've noticed myself leaning more towards the "I don't give a fuck anymore about you people, when the apocalypse comes, I'll be alive and you'll be dead because you're stupid and I'm not stupid" as opposed to the "come on guys, this is a little silly, aren't we a little old to be believing in this stuff? Aren't the real answers much more interesting anyway?!"...

I know I'll be much happier when I finally do learn to accept it, but like I said... It's hard, it just feels like you're giving up on the world, giving up hope for humanity. I still want to have hope even if I know it's pointless. How's that for an 'atheist's delusion' eh? ;)

I would like to think that there is a creator, or a god, or magic or divine force somewhere in existence. But I’ve come to the realization that no human has ever seen this, we have only ever seen this in our imaginations. I know now that I cannot give shape or name to what we humans have been calling “god” but I would like to think that there is a reason for life, that there is a reason for existence. The answer to that question lies within that same something or nothing… that we could never even begin to understand.


This is interesting, why would you "like to think there is a creator"? Is it because you can't imagine any meaning in an existence without one?

I'd refer back to your earlier post, #3, the reason/meaning of your life is what you make it.

The answer- “I do not know, and I will never again presume to do so” for if I did I would then go back to sleep, and after you awaken it is not possible to sleep again… to perceive things the way you did before. People do not need theology to teach them morality, we need unity…we need harmony.

Everything said is all just my personal opinion, coming from my own perceptions

Good read, I enjoyed this thread dude. Haven't had quality like this in a while.
 

Zaehet Strife

Well-Known Member

Originally Posted by Zaehet Strife
I would like to think that there is a creator, or a god, or magic or divine force somewhere in existence. But I’ve come to the realization that no human has ever seen this, we have only ever seen this in our imaginations. I know now that I cannot give shape or name to what we humans have been calling “god” but I would like to think that there is a reason for life, that there is a reason for existence. The answer to that question lies within that same something or nothing… that we could never even begin to understand.





This is interesting, why would you "like to think there is a creator"? Is it because you can't imagine any meaning in an existence without one?


that my friend, is such a good question...thank YOU (not god) that you asked me that. i think its because its hard for me to accept the unknowing factor of the creation of existence/non-existence. can something be created out of nothing, is nothing just no-thing? or something or omfg see man, this shit is just so hard lol. there are no answers, but i naturally want one. in this lifetime i will never know what or how existence/non-existence was created...but i like to think there is hehe. do i think that i will have another existence after this? i will never know... but i like to think so hehehehe!

this shit is just so crazy man, in the past month my perceptions have changed so much i do not know who i am. straight up with that too.


what drives you to do the things you do? think truly to what motivates you, a search for self? or a search for something external of you? because we are all searching for something...

im not trying to say the way people are living is bad or wrong or anything like that what-so-ever. im just trying to paint a different picture, to offer a different perspective. all you have to do is take away everything you think you know about yourself, and dig hard, dig deep, and really try answer the questions about yourself that you've either never thought of, or have been avoiding




i want to know who my true self is... beyond the illusion of what we humans create called reality.


maybe i don't
want to know, maybe i already know who i am... i think its the journey of my becoming that (indescribable word) part of myself that i know i am. i just have to find it...its hard, its scary, it will take everything from you and give you nothing but yourself. im trying my best, and i have a very long way to go...but for some reason i believe i will get there... to a place in my mind with no attachments. with great faith, doubt, and determination i think i can do it, i know i can do it. journey on my friend, and share with me what you discover of yourself, and everything else you may about the cosmos. =D
 
I just want to say I enjoyed your post! It was quite inspiring. :) Its always comforting to know that there are people that DO expeirence what I feel and think.
 

karri0n

Well-Known Member
+rep, the kicker to this one being; What would an omniscient god prefer more, its creation to blindly obey and not genuinely question its origins and follow through with the correct answers, believe what it's told by an ancient book, or actual inquiry into existence? I try to think of it like a father would, after all, that's what He's supposed to be, right, a father type figure? Wouldn't you want your kids to know what's true, regardless of... anything else? Isn't that the most important thing?
I whole-heartedly agree with this statement. I do believe any pgilosophical or spiritual system should embrace questioning and searching for knowledge as the most important thing to be doing. I have spoken to friends who were very open minded, liberal cathlics, who once told me during a discussion on religion that we shoudn't question or seek to understand the nature of god and the universe; that some things aren't meant to be known and only God should know. This, to me, is one of the most harmful tenets I've ever heard in any spiritual tradition.


Oh boy, my exgf would tell you I haven't the cloudiest idea of what 'love' is, and I'd have to agree with her at this point in my life... but I do know one thing about love; it's intentions are always pure, so that makes it universally good. I've always been a firm believer in the impossibility of the concept of objective truth, but if there is anything that could possibly be objectively true, it's that 'love' is good, that, I think, we can all agree on, whether your a psychopath who murders innocent people in your spare time or stoners like you and I on internet forums...
Unconditional love of the self, others, and everythng is at the very root of nearly any spiritual tradtition.

(the rest of that post was great, but this point is KEY!)This is one of the most important questions I think we can ask ourselves, and so many fucking people don't even recognize the distinction. The 'MY' is PROFOUNDLY important. It is what separates us as individuals while uniting us as a species because we can all consciously ask ourselves the exact same question.
This pretty much sums up my views on religion. The gods, philosophies, and rules that someone live by and work best for them is the correct path. It is impossible for anyone to be "wrong" in their spiritual beliefs as long as those beliefs serve the person what it is they need from their faith.

[/quote]
Zaehet Strife said:
straight up. If you try to tell yourself that you know, that’s called self-willed ignorance. People are happy living in their ignorance… I’ve come to terms with that. It was very hard for me at first, but eventually you realize you can’t change anyone’s perception. I have to be happy because I’m awake, and I have just begun to see the cosmos in a new truth. Attempting to see things for what they truly are, not the way I WANT to see them.

You're certainly right, that's a hard pill to swallow. I still haven't fully accepted it yet, though I've noticed myself leaning more towards the "I don't give a fuck anymore about you people, when the apocalypse comes, I'll be alive and you'll be dead because you're stupid and I'm not stupid" as opposed to the "come on guys, this is a little silly, aren't we a little old to be believing in this stuff? Aren't the real answers much more interesting anyway?!"...
I know I'll be much happier when I finally do learn to accept it, but like I said... It's hard, it just feels like you're giving up on the world, giving up hope for humanity. I still want to have hope even if I know it's pointless. How's that for an 'atheist's delusion' eh? ;)
Why is this hard? This is not different than a christian trying to convert you, trying to change your perception. Just as you KNOW you're correct and want to help them realize the truth, they KNOW they are correct and want to help you realize the truth. I would point back to the reference that you both agreed upon, saying that YOUR OWN beliefs are what truly matter, and not someone elses. If it works for you and serves you well, and what they do works for them and serves them well, why does anyones perception need to be changed? Who charged YOU with the responsibility of educating the "ignorant masses"? Along tha same vein, why does anyones perception need to be changed, even if this is somehow your responsibility to educate? Why not simply teach what you know about bioloy and cosmology without anything religion related involved? ahere's an example:

What you do not know defintively: There is no creator of the universe and no such thing as any god.

What you do know definitively: The universe expanded from a singularity and underwent a massive surge of energy causing massive and rapid expansion. Through gravity, the particles scattered over the universe from the expansion clustered together, forming galaxies, stars, and planets.

Why does lesson A need to be taught? Lesson B is far more informative and can be shown to be accurate. I's also not inflammatory, and if someone has an issue with it, that's their problem, not yours. The same cannot be said for lesson A.

This is interesting, why would you "like to think there is a creator"? Is it because you can't imagine any meaning in an existence without one?

I'd refer back to your earlier post, #3, the reason/meaning of your life is what you make it.


I also agree with Pad on this one. I don't think you should "like to think" anything. Think what makes the most sense - what you can logically decipher from the knowledge and experience you have or are able to acquire. This can be applied to nything, not just spirituality.

Good read, I enjoyed this thread dude. Haven't had quality like this in a while.
[/quote]

+rep Pad
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
This, to me, is one of the most harmful tenets I've ever heard in any spiritual tradition.
Absolutely, the stifling of real education disgusts me. This, to me, is on par with killing people. You murder a persons mind with bullshit and you destroy his ability to succeed. The sad part is they get away with it in the name of their faith.



It is impossible for anyone to be "wrong" in their spiritual beliefs as long as those beliefs serve the person what it is they need from their faith.
As long as it doesn't come at a cost to anyone else, which organized religions do, whether believers believe that or not, those of us who do not believe pay the price for the ones that do.

Why is this hard?
It's not 'our facts' against 'their facts', it's 'our facts' against 'their faith'.

It's hard because to these people, 'facts' don't matter. Faith supersedes fact, as their god said it should. A true believer will stand strong in their faith in light of the facts against it, to them, this is a sign of loyalty, trust, obedience, etc., to us it's a pretty clear, and pretty successful attempt to attain and maintain power.

...saying that YOUR OWN beliefs are what truly matter...
..to you. Your own beliefs are what truly matter to you, in that they are what give meaning to your life.

A persons belief system defines who they are and determines how they make decisions in reality, these decisions affect each one of us. I'm not, and never have said that the way organized religion has shaped our species is 100% bad, as some (uti) might have you believe..

why does anyones perception need to be changed?
Because organized religions cause more harm than good. Something needs to be changed.

Who charged YOU with the responsibility of educating the "ignorant masses"?
I think it's everyones responsibility to educate the ignorant masses who has the ability to do so. This means teaching people the stuff we know. Knowledge. The stuff that when we test it, it works. Nothing else.

There is a big difference between what I, and others like me do, and what believers do.

Why does lesson A need to be taught? Lesson B is far more informative and can be shown to be accurate. I's also not inflammatory, and if someone has an issue with it, that's their problem, not yours. The same cannot be said for lesson A.
I hope I explained why I think this line of reasoning with believers doesn't work, they don't care. God says green is blue, to them, green is now blue. God kills thousands of people, it's the right thing to do because God did it.. Whatever God does is right, no matter what. I have a fun time getting believers to admit this, just take em down hypothetical lane sometimes... "what if God destroyed a whole town, including lots of innocent people, because it was too wicked, would that be the right thing to do?"..."well yeah, God did it, so it must have been..." while their face contradicts them as they say it because they know something is definitely wrong with that statement..


I still need to reply to ZS too, I haven't forgotten bro, just been busy n realized you posted after I started replying to this one...
 
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