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Increasing the THC and CBD levels with Mn and Ir - REALLY?

Discussion in 'Advanced Marijuana Cultivation' started by Dr. Who, May 1, 2017.

  1.  
    Budley Doright

    Budley Doright Well-Known Member

    And once again we were talking about water filters, you forgot to add the rest of the quote I think, yup confused huh. Don't you have somewhere else to be angry and egotistical? ;).
     
  2.  
    Budley Doright

    Budley Doright Well-Known Member

    My hasn't this thread turned a corner lol.
     
  3.  
    Chunky Stool

    Chunky Stool Well-Known Member

    Oh for fucks sake, shut up already... :sleep:
     
  4.  
    churchhaze

    churchhaze Well-Known Member

    So, has anyone here actually experimented with different levels of Fe and Mn and observed noticeable changes? (besides me of course..)

    I have a suggestion... A good start would be to go get some FeDTPA, MnSO4, and a milligram scale... Just saying... Stop trying to do these experiments organically... You can control the level of all elements almost perfectly with hydro, which is how I know my mix #21 is 5ppm Fe and 0.5ppm Mn in the first place. I set those 2 elements are at those concentrations for a reason. Things have changed a lot since Mix #1 in 2009. Many insights were gained, particularly on the concentration of Fe..

    I suppose nobody actually cares about the effects of varying levels of Fe and Mn.
     
    3GT, Dr. Who and MichiganMedGrower like this.
  5.  
    MichiganMedGrower

    MichiganMedGrower Well-Known Member


    I would like to hear your findings if you don't mind posting them.
     
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  6.  
    Dr. Who

    Dr. Who Well-Known Member

    Getting testy for what reason? I'm not discrediting your question. Not on purpose!

    I find it to be a factor. It has been for years and tried it many ways. I don't care "why", It just works. It's good enough for me, and I'm not interested in proving any "why". I'm not writing a book or doing research to publish a paper.

    Just to say, The plants that got the high K in veg. Did not have low K in bloom. I don't understand your statement on that - It was a mistaken soil build......The available K in the soil was way high!

    I have not gotten yellowing from high K, high P use - you betcha....

    Bottom line is that I increase the K by like 3 points in bloom (on some strains).
    The environment is a constant, 71 - 74 deg. 40- 45 % Rh (40 is the set point and it rides to about +5 to fire)
    I run 1 K HPS with 400w of Merc Vapor set just under the hood.

    I have found that for me running the extra 3 points. Has increased the amount of natural coloring in those strains that will express coloring. Anthocyanin increase by what action? Some strains more then others. Examples would be Ghost OG and an early diesel.
    If they do not get the 3 points, they in no way color like if I do. So then, what would you conclude from that if it was happening in your garden?

    It simply caught my attention years ago and continue to use the find to my ends.

    Don't get so "huffy". I'm not calling anyone anything and sure not attacking anyone.

    K is known to influence many things in blooming flowers and fruits - K is vital to several areas of plant growth, including drought tolerance, disease resistance, stem strength, improved texture, color and flavor of fruits, and photosynthesis.


    Fair enough?
     
  7.  
    Dr. Who

    Dr. Who Well-Known Member


    Oh, you'll know when the plant gets too much - it'll show you just fine :mrgreen:
     
    Dynamo626 likes this.
  8.  
    MichiganMedGrower

    MichiganMedGrower Well-Known Member


    From the information written I would conclude the room is a bit cold and a bit dry for the lighting and that K uptake is such that adding more gives you the results you want.

    My opinion why. Is that the plants start to slowly lock out K at the roots and then photosynthesis is compromised some and the other colors start to show.

    I have been focusing on observing what slight deficiencies and toxicities show on the plants.

    My comment was about the other post though. It had too many variables to determine what did what. And the cold could have easily been the main factor.

    I did just ask why you thought the K was the culprit first. It's frustrating to get an answer sometimes.

    And now you have answered with more information to go on. :-)

    No one but beginners are ever going to risk their results on someone's word of their observations alone.

    Well I hope that to be a mostly true statement. :-)

    This stuff is very serious for me. I studied for 2 years day and night before even planting my first seed.

    And observed from inside the industry since I was a teenager.

    I look at it like it's greenhouse production and nothing can go wrong or I go out of business.

    I'm sorry if you view me so controversial about people's observions. It's not personal at all. I am more interested to weed out enough info to see what's really going on.

    And if we present theories we will always have debate.

    I hope.
     
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  9.  
    churchhaze

    churchhaze Well-Known Member

    Well I wasn't looking for whether Fe increases CBD and Mn increases THC and these are observations only, not actual experiments.

    What I noticed is that under high light intensity, iron deficiency is a lot more common. I've tried levels between 4ppm iron and 10ppm iron (Hoagland formula has Fe of anywhere between 1-5ppm) and used to use commercial mixes like GH flora. I've never experienced any of the light bleaching symptoms under high intensity light with any of my formulas and I suspect this is because of most commercial formulas are just on the borderline of causing deficiencies in Fe. FeDTPA is one of the more expensive ingredients. I started with too much iron in my first formulas (10ppm) and halfed it over time and saw no deficiencies or slowing of growth.

    As for Mn, my experience was basically using 0.5ppm for a long time, noticing some other popular formulas used 2.0ppm... so I tried it... I didn't know what I was looking for and didn't notice any difference. I lowed it back to 0.5ppm and didn't notice any deficiencies.

    My method of designing formulas is basically to get rid of what's not needed.. If 5ppm Fe doesn't cause iron deficiency under any conditions, it shouldn't be 10ppm. (unless this theory of excess iron causing CBD is true) If 0.5ppm Mn doesn't cause Mn deficiency under any condition, it shouldn't be 2ppm. (unless the theory of excess Mn causing higher levels of THC is true). A good formula is balanced so the plant gets everything it needs.
     
  10.  
    MichiganMedGrower

    MichiganMedGrower Well-Known Member

    My observations match this iron info exactly.

    My old house had .2 ec filtered well water and showed no iron build up at all. I only used bottled nutes and would show deficiencies without upping nute strength. Higher ec no iron deficiency. (Or calcium)

    New house has unfiltered .3 ec deep well water that does show a bit of iron buildup. I grow larger plants in the same pots with the same nutes and have no deficiency.

    I grew under properly sized hps in both houses. More intensity now.

    Not scientific but the bleaching and light deformed new leaves don't lie.

    Isn't spray and grow and such products mainly an iron boost for the veggie garden for the same reason?

    And you are right the paper was an observation of effects. The article I attached was a company using the paper to sell a product before the info is really proven.

    So common in agriculture. Everything retail I guess. Lol.
     
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  11.  
    Chunky Stool

    Chunky Stool Well-Known Member

    This is all very fascinating! Thanks for the info guys.
    Ever heard of a product called Vitalize by Mills? It is a *very* expensive foliar that's supposedly just silica. Can't overdose on silica, right? Well I gave my plants three doses in four days and the fan leaves bleached out to the max.
    Sounds like their secret ingredient might be iron...
    (I got a free sample.)
     
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  12.  
    MichiganMedGrower

    MichiganMedGrower Well-Known Member

    I never use any additives unless I know what and why. And then I don't use any additives. Just a bottle of complete nutes.

    However I have found so far (in potting soil mix) that seaweed and humic acid are key ingredients to the results I look for.

    They are in my soil and nutes now but if I used Pro mix or the like and a mineral based nute I would add these elements.

    I have not used silica but is is highly recommended at a constant but low ppm.

    However. Silica is present in amended or organic soil so I wonder if it is a hydro thing like so many products needed for water culture that are needlessly recommended for soil and vise versa.
     
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  13.  
    ANC

    ANC Well-Known Member

    Too much K screws with magnesium absorption. This is a critical problem. humans have haemoglobin which is formed around iron. If you replace that iron with magnesium you have plant blood, chlorophyll. is the heart. So, of photosynthesis.

    It is very quickly depleted so when plants are not responding to single dose treatments, it may be because they are running out of this element too fast every time. Remember each strain and to some extend phenotype, have different nutritional demands. If everything else is going well I would not increase potassium unless the flowering stalls.
     
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  14.  
    Dr. Who

    Dr. Who Well-Known Member

    NICE reply! Thank you, I understand better now too...

    I don't think the rooms actually get cool enough too do much expression by temp variation. I built the stand alone building just for growing. It is very, very insulated and drops little. I have the night temps set to 65 and only during winter has the furnace come on at night (yup a furnace and central air!) I'm of the school of 71-74 ambient. Used a laser temp gun to measure the temp layers about the plant.

    Pots on 1" foam = under 70
    Mid to upper plant = 71-74
    Canopy = upper 80's

    This (in relation to my used RH %) supplies the proper transpiration rates for the way, and concentration rates that are feed. This in turn gives me my desired result = getting as close to "potential" as can be, without overfeeding.

    I feel these lower temps are a critical part of denser buds..... At least that's how it's worked for me, as I found this balance.
    I Have to say the early reports on the KIND experiment follows my preference very well. I'm also running Hesi soil (my way) as the base and supplementing as a Friend and employee does. Should say here, that she took my old notes, liked the changes I made to Hesi's list and changed it again by her college studies (I hired her right out of school) and has shown some impressive results from her work.

    Wanted to try that for myself. Following her method by eye and not by her chart (she wanted me to try that) is rather fun. It's nice to have some fun doing this again.....Just seemed to be getting rather monotonous.......

    Life needs change, to stay interesting......maybe some DWC with these brands for shits and giggles later..
     
    MichiganMedGrower likes this.
  15.  
    MichiganMedGrower

    MichiganMedGrower Well-Known Member


    Ok. I see where you feel things are stable enough to make judgements.

    I do get tons of color with night temps at 65-66 Fahrenheit.

    I run 75-77 lights on and 65-70 lights off. And humidity maintained for the whole house and grow rooms at 50-60% RH.

    best I can do here ventilated.

    The colors increased drastically with the metal and ceramic halides in there. It was the same for color (not leaf health) regardless of a little over or under nuting.

    Isn't the purpling from the plant getting old and being unable to make chlorophyll? It's mostly genetic?
     
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  16.  
    Dr. Who

    Dr. Who Well-Known Member

    I see your point, yet I'm not raising to toxic levels or levels that have screwed my Mg uptake...Not at all. I assure you, I have no Mg problems. In my organic wo soils or in the synthetic runs I'm doing right now.
    I'm also a everyday water/feeder in the use of synthetic's, so no "running out to fast" problems there.

    In the WO soil builds. I go for 2 of 3 bloom soils being amended with differing release timed "extra" K. For longer running plants. The 3rd is a fast plant faster release higher K soil. These soils have plenty of available Mg.....and I have never had an uptake issue with Mg in them. This would seem to indicate that the plant is not being feed a tox level amount....eh?

    Now and then (with the organics), might supplement a bit more K by teas near the end. If the plant "looks" like it needs more to fill my requirements from years of doing it....As you might guess. I grow by "what the plant tells me" visually. Some natural schedule has been ingrained over the years and of course the plants tolerance's to what I'm feeding.....It's like it's following a very well worn path, that you began decades ago..... After finding what has been your best route to the destination..

    I believe that our plant has a higher need/tolerance for K then many other C3 plants. That's just a simple observation and has it's own "limits". I see that difference all the time on the farms......Squash has very little tolerance to any elevation of K. Cruciferous vegetables have more but, still quickly loose yield from elevated K. This makes sense as you tend to have these crops in more moist soils and that increases K availability.....You don't amend the soil for K, you rotate to a lower K using plant for that area next season. Alfalfa and grains like higher K amounts in soil and alfalfa actually does best with plenty of available K. This makes for the use of manures being well suited for use as ferts on those area's....Same for limited use on cruciferous fields but, not for squash fields!

    This is what I have found in Cannabis as expression of K overuse in veg: Reduced growth followed by symptoms of iron chlorosis, stunting, reduced branching, color expression in new growth that can increase out, and abnormal darkening and thickening of roots.

    In bloom: Reduced growth followed by symptoms of iron chlorosis, stunting. In severe case's (you do see this around here too) necrosis starting on the edges of leaves and moving inward.

    This is a severe case (pic from cannabis.com)
    upload_2017-5-25_9-34-34.jpeg

    This is somewhat advanced excess K expression in squash. More like it was ferted poorly and responded quickly to the problem.
    upload_2017-5-25_9-40-31.jpeg

    Early in squash is light yellowing followed by light tan necrosis on the leaf edges, going about 1/8 to 1/4 inch in....

    8)
     
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  17.  
    Dr. Who

    Dr. Who Well-Known Member

    Exactly correct! There is no "need" to amend Si in soils! There is plenty available, all the plant can use!

    Now Hydro is a completely other story. While the plant does grow, it shows in testing like half the "normal" plant levels of Si in it's cell structure. With everything that Si regulates or has relative relationships to.....Personally, I would say that proper use of amending SI in hydro is needed.

    I always found it prudent to ensure adding it by it's self and pre-diluted in a gallon or 2 of water. pH to the res pH level and add slowly.

    I had better results with less problems (especially P problems), when using Si in hydro - period.
     
  18.  
    MichiganMedGrower

    MichiganMedGrower Well-Known Member

    @Dr. Who

    I forgot to mention. The breeder of CH9 seeds had developed a powdered nute after Greenhouse seeds version became popular in Europe.

    The NPK.

    12-9-34

    With 2 kinds of nitrogen and 3% magnesium.

    He had been growing medical with the big boys back in 93' in Mendocino. Sure he started before that. Point is tons of plant history.

    Thought you would find it interesting.

    It's called. "Easy Pistils". Meant to be used all the way through.
     
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  19.  
    Dr. Who

    Dr. Who Well-Known Member


    It would seem that we are getting quality answers and directions from Heil Tweeter in his posts! Confirming these "observations."
    In fact in reading between the lines in his posting. You get the feeling that some real serious growers have known and been practicing this for awhile..

    Observations are the ground floor of discovery..no?

    I've already sent out soil samples and will follow his Mn and Fe level relations ships and increase my Mn by the recommended 10 - 20 ppms at a time. As needed of course.

    I do understand your minimalist approach too! Interesting in it's self!
     
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  20.  
    Dr. Who

    Dr. Who Well-Known Member

    That's an interesting NPK balance......Anyone else see the high K levels? That's not close to where I have mine!
    Yet you can see the use at 1/3rd and that's still high K to me, P level just a tic too.....4-3-11.3

    Yet the P level will work with that N.......Gosh, my ratio is close, except for the K. I'm like 6 for K.
     

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