Is Christianity Safe?

Is Christianity Safe?


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PadawanBater

Guest
Paddy, check out this link:

http://www.flamewarrior.com/islam.htm

It's written by an Atheist who usually criticizes Christianity because it is what affects us most here in the West.

He claims that modern Christianity is tame compared to Islam.

I'm curious to see your reaction to the piece.
Good article for the most part. I agree with 90% of what was said.

Though I did want to point out, one of the major reasons I think Christianity is so dangerous is because of the sleek, safe appearance it has to most of the believers. It's a trick, show them the fluffy side and promise all the rewards (when they're young no less) and you don't even have to mention the rest, they'll believe whatever you tell them. It's a different kind of "terrorism", one that lasts generations and doesn't really "harm" people physically (for the most part), but like I said throughout the thread, mental harm is just as bad as physical harm, and it lasts much longer, which to some might arguably make it worse.

I like this bit a lot, in my case I apply it to all organized religion, not just Islam;

I make little distinction between terrorists and those who enable them, excuse them, and fail to condemn them.
 

Leothwyn

Well-Known Member
I agree with what you've said about islam being more dangerous. Christianity's book of myths has plenty of kooky and scary quotes like the koran one you gave. The difference is that christianity has been more adaptable. The reason that only catholics committed the atrocities that you mentioned was because they were the christian church then (exception: church of England). It's their willingness to change that brought about all of the other sects that we now have (who do preach hellfire... I don't know what rock you've been under). I'm glad that many christians are happy to ignore parts of the bible in order to keep up with modern times (reality)... the perfect example is your idea that hell is just being stuck outside the pearly gates (that's a new one for me).

Let's hope that islam will start pulling its head out of its ass a bit, and start selectively ignoring more of the bullshit aspects of their religion. (We are slowly seeing some of that... islamic sects in Indonesia that incorporate alcohol in their rituals, for example).


i love how every one in these debates argues against catholic dogma not christianity. the crusades, witch hunts, molestation all stems from a church not the religion. christianity itself teaches only love, peace, and respect. not once in any church outside of a catholic one have i ever even heard someone really discuss hell as being an eternal punishment and lake of fire. hell literally means absence of god. not burning lava lake, not horny demons fucking up the place, simply absence of god. so hell could literally be just havin to chill outside the pearly gates.

one religion that is dangerous in and of itself however is islam(it is better to kill an infidel than to allow him to conver to islam. the koran, "may god bring death to the christians and the jews" mohamad at his death.

thats right ill say it, if every single muslim died tonite, tomorrow the world would be a safer place.

btw to all the race baters, my 2nd best friend in the world is AbdaRahim, a muslim, so im not just hating, its just that to make an omlet you gotta crack some eggs lol.
 

morgentaler

Well-Known Member
I love the Fact that You have absolutely no Clue of what your talking about.
You have the comprehension level of an 3yo (Blind Ignorance).
I'll advise you to phone a friend to help out.
And my ability to pretend is a secret, SHHhhhhh :mrgreen:
:sleep:
That's funny. 3 year olds can learn something.
You obviously haven't learned anything any time recently. Like when you no longer have a leg to stand on with anything you say you still pop up now and again to make a couple of empty insults, because if you were to try and join in the actual conversations your ignorance and inability to convey any idea clearly would get you bitchslapped back into last tuesday.
 

morgentaler

Well-Known Member
Ya know morgen, I don't know why you have to be so condescending. It's really unbecoming, especially from someone who is as intelliegent as you appear to be. Why don't you stop ridiculing people and simply make your point. If you are so confident you are right then there's no reason to belittle the others posting in these threads don't ya think? ;-)
Maybe you want to go back and read a bunch of his nonsense posts, where his best attempt at making a point was just to use the word monkey in each one.

Once anyone has established themselves as too lazy to look something up, or just repeats the same unsubstantiated crap that was argued by themselves or someone else in the discussions they're fair game for contempt.

I grew tired of the liars for jesus and the "god is real you just don't know how to look for him" crowd, long ago.
 

morgentaler

Well-Known Member
i love how every one in these debates argues against catholic dogma not christianity.
Hardly. You haven't been paying attention.

I'm not the only one who has argued against ALL forms of dogmatic faith, and other points are regularly dealt with:

The claim by some that the existence of the christian god is undeniable truth, yet completely lacking in evidence.

The claim that Christianity is loving, etc. and the New Testament is a wonderful diversion from the old, yet it still promises eternal suffering to unbelievers throughout.

and more.


Here's a new one: If Christ was such an awesome guy (if he even existed) why did he not abolish slavery on the spot. The apologists will say "Because it wasn't culturally appropriate." Well, you're talking about the son of the being that supposedly created the universe. Can apparently deliver bread and fish to beat the band, but not save people from the abuses of slavery. Hmmm.
 

OregonMeds

Well-Known Member

"
We can only rise above them by putting them down over time."

Oregon we will never put down religion or spiritual belief, it's hard wired into our brains. We must "know" - and in the absence of understanding superstition will take it's place. And in a lot of cases the people don't care about the truth, "these lies what we believe" is good enough for them as it is for you and I in other matters.

Nor should we ever limit people's access to religions that give comfort to the practitioner, so long as they and their religion follow the One Rule. The older I get the more I see the comfort that my religionist family and friends get from their beliefs.

The only thing we can hope for is to completely separate church and state, and that is going to take some time. An example is Turkey, 99%+ Muslim but moderately sane in a sea of Islamic insanity only because:

"Turkey is officially a secular state with no official religion since the constitutional amendment in 1924 and later strengthened in the Kemalist Ideology, alongside the Atatürk's reforms and the appliance of laïcité by Mustafa Kemal Atatürk at the end of 1937"

.

bongsmilie
I disagree completely on the "never put down religion" part. I agree it's human nature but as you said it also requires a lack of understanding and lack of education in certain areas. I am quite certain that over time we can overcome religion. There will always be some stragglers but I still would consider it a total win just getting the number of believers under 50% so it's no longer ruling us as a majority. People do need answers or they make up superstitions to fill the gaps, true, so educate educate educate. We will get there eventually.

I think in just 10-20years time things will start slowly changing for the better in modern countries just because education will have to get better also the more we advance.
 

Drgreenz

Well-Known Member
Hardly. You haven't been paying attention.

I'm not the only one who has argued against ALL forms of dogmatic faith, and other points are regularly dealt with:

The claim by some that the existence of the christian god is undeniable truth, yet completely lacking in evidence.

The claim that Christianity is loving, etc. and the New Testament is a wonderful diversion from the old, yet it still promises eternal suffering to unbelievers throughout.




Here's a new one: If Christ was such an awesome guy (if he even existed) why did he not abolish slavery on the spot. The apologists will say "Because it wasn't culturally appropriate." Well, you're talking about the son of the being that supposedly created the universe. Can apparently deliver bread and fish to beat the band, but not save people from the abuses of slavery. Hmmm.
once again you have little idea of what you are talking about. god himself(assuming a christian standpoint here) can not even end slavery, it is called free will, he gave man the will to go out and do as they please with themselves, to stop slavery, murder, rape, pillaging would be to control the will of those who are doing it. the best thing about christianity is the fact that under that belief system you are free to do as you please, god doesnt say pray 6 times a day or burn. he says "hey here is a life for you, do what you want but try to at least be decent and oh remember, even though your pretty much a peice of shit, i still have a place for you if you want."

btw as far as the "was jesus real debate" did all of you know, even the koran dictates that jesus is the mesaih? well not yet at least to be a messaih is when he will return to earth. but he is the one they acknowledge of being the one to come.
in fact there are over 1000 text outside of the bible which all talk about jesus and his life including the 18 years not in the bible.
 

OregonMeds

Well-Known Member
once again you have little idea of what you are talking about. god himself(assuming a christian standpoint here) can not even end slavery, it is called free will, he gave man the will to go out and do as they please with themselves, to stop slavery, murder, rape, pillaging would be to control the will of those who are doing it. the best thing about christianity is the fact that under that belief system you are free to do as you please, god doesnt say pray 6 times a day or burn. he says "hey here is a life for you, do what you want but try to at least be decent and oh remember, even though your pretty much a peice of shit, i still have a place for you if you want."

btw as far as the "was jesus real debate" did all of you know, even the koran dictates that jesus is the mesaih? well not yet at least to be a messaih is when he will return to earth. but he is the one they acknowledge of being the one to come.
in fact there are over 1000 text outside of the bible which all talk about jesus and his life including the 18 years not in the bible.
Free will is one thing, never speaking out against things like slavery is another. All he had to do was speak against it not force anyones hand.

You have never even picked up the old testament have you? Your god requires strict obediance or he will kill you in many different bloody ways and then he will enjoy the "sweet savory smell of your blood".

If you need I can pull out some bible passages to educate you.


And what are you doing with that sig? Who's side are you on? Thomas Jefferson was not on your side.

Lastly the fact that the bible the koran and the torah all share much of the same crap is not something you can use to strengthen your argument, it's only evidence of ancient plagiarism.
 

Drgreenz

Well-Known Member
lol you may want to read a copy of The Founding Fathers someday, TJ was a devout christian spiritualist. also as for the rest of your ill informed statement, it is called the new covenant.
 

morgentaler

Well-Known Member
once again you have little idea of what you are talking about. god himself(assuming a christian standpoint here) can not even end slavery, it is called free will, he gave man the will to go out and do as they please with themselves, to stop slavery, murder, rape, pillaging would be to control the will of those who are doing it.
All he had to do was say "Slavery is evil, and you will suffer for it as you will suffer for all other sins."

And you can dance around that all you like but if the bible is dictating that you must do X or suffer Y in other places, why couldn't "God" or Jesus speak up on that issue?
 

morgentaler

Well-Known Member
btw as far as the "was jesus real debate" did all of you know, even the koran dictates that jesus is the mesaih? well not yet at least to be a messaih is when he will return to earth. but he is the one they acknowledge of being the one to come.
You're using another religious text to support your religious text as real.
That's like using Ender's Game to show that Harry Potter was real.


in fact there are over 1000 text outside of the bible which all talk about jesus and his life including the 18 years not in the bible.
Cite them. Historical, non-religious texts.
Greek and Roman would be the most accurate in that time period. Good luck with that.
You'll be hard pressed to find *4* non-religious historical documents, at least 1 a forgery (Josephus), and none within his lifetime.
 

Drgreenz

Well-Known Member
you are looking at this from your pretty pink tinted 20/20 hindsite goggles. up until really the 1500's slavery was not considered evil. it was just another facet of life. and also, where does it say do x or suffer y? the only 2 things the christian bible truly dictates is 1: have faith that god can and has saved you. 2: try to be a decent fucking human being. anything else is just specific stories of god telling certain people to do very specific things at that moment, there are no mass dictations except, to put it in jesus' words "1: have faith 2: be cool"
 

morgentaler

Well-Known Member
lol you may want to read a copy of The Founding Fathers someday, TJ was a devout christian spiritualist. also as for the rest of your ill informed statement, it is called the new covenant.
He really sounds like one:

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

What is it men cannot be made to believe! -Thomas Jefferson to Richard Henry Lee, April 22, 1786. (on the British regarding America, but quoted here for its universal appeal.)

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination. -Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion. -Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes. -Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July, 1816
My opinion is that there would never have been an infidel, if there had never been a priest. The artificial structures they have built on the purest of all moral systems, for the purpose of deriving from it pence and power, revolts those who think for themselves, and who read in that system only what is really there.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Mrs. Samuel H. Smith, August, 6, 1816

You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, June 25, 1819

As you say of yourself, I too am an Epicurian. I consider the genuine (not the imputed) doctrines of Epicurus as containing everything rational in moral philosophy which Greece and Rome have left us. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, Oct. 31, 1819

Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live. -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Correa de Serra, April 11, 1820
Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820

To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820

Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind. -Thomas Jefferson to James Smith, 1822.

I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors. -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825

May it be to the world, what I believe it will be, (to some parts sooner, to others later, but finally to all,) the signal of arousing men to burst the chains under which monkish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves, and to assume the blessings and security of self-government. All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Roger C. Weightman, June 24, 1826 (in the last letter he penned)
 

Drgreenz

Well-Known Member
You're using another religious text to support your religious text as real.
That's like using Ender's Game to show that Harry Potter was real.




Cite them. Historical, non-religious texts.
Greek and Roman would be the most accurate in that time period. Good luck with that.
You'll be hard pressed to find *4* non-religious historical documents, at least 1 a forgery (Josephus), and none within his lifetime.
the dead see scrolls, the gnostic texts and here are a few more greek and roman texts
Letter from Pliny the Younger to Trajan (c. 110)
Tacitus (Annals, c.115-120) [The best current discussion on this passage is in my friend JP Holding's site]
Suetonius (Lives of the Caesars, c. 125)
Lucian (mid-2nd century)
Galen (c.150; De pulsuum differentiis 2.4; 3.3)
Celsus (True Discourse, c.170).
Mara Bar Serapion (pre-200?)
Talmudic References( written after 300 CE, but some refs probably go back to eyewitnesses)
 

OregonMeds

Well-Known Member
Please do explain to me how the new covenant or new testament or whatever makes the same old religion any better. And how do you justify completely changing many of the core practices or ignoring them just because they were in the original book? There are many many things in the old testament that say they must be done forever or god will be very angry and you just went 180 degrees with a new book but it's still just the same old religion. Why why why when everyone saw a need for a new book didn't you all just say screw this old religion lets make up a completely new one? Why continue to lend your support to a church so born on cruelty and blood?
 

Drgreenz

Well-Known Member
He really sounds like one:

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

read up on him a bit, he was adamintly opposed to organized religion(the church) but he is in fact a christian spiritualist, you may want to further your search outside of "google_anti christian jefferson quotes"
 

Drgreenz

Well-Known Member
Please do explain to me how the new covenant or new testament or whatever makes the same old religion any better. And how do you justify completely changing many of the core practices or ignoring them just because they were in the original book? There are many many things in the old testament that say they must be done forever or god will be very angry and you just went 180 degrees with a new book but it's still just the same old religion. Why why why when everyone saw a need for a new book didn't you all just say screw this old religion lets make up a completely new one? Why continue to lend your support to a church so born on cruelty and blood?
you do realize that the old testament is the jewish torah right? christianity is a totaly different religion. they stem from the same history(that of the old testament) but are totally different guess what the first half of the koran is???? thats right, the torah!!!
 

OregonMeds

Well-Known Member
He really sounds like one:

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

read up on him a bit, he was adamintly opposed to organized religion(the church) but he is in fact a christian spiritualist, you may want to further your search outside of "google_anti christian jefferson quotes"
You may want to read more of his quotes and then put things into full perspective by understanding he could never have gotten anywhere had he said he was an athiest.


Absolutely no athiest would get elected for shit back then and it's still impossible now. Had he not claimed some belief system we would not know who the hell he ever was but his quotes stand firm and tell the real story behind the scenes.
 

shnkrmn

Well-Known Member
:sleep::sleep::sleep: Really weak comeback.

read up on him a bit, he was adamintly opposed to organized religion(the church) but he is in fact a christian spiritualist, you may want to further your search outside of "google_anti christian jefferson quotes"
 
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