Is this just from low pH? (coco) (pics)

I am using:
Pro-Tekt Silica @ 2ml/gal
CNS17 Bloom @ 15ml/gal
Drip Clean @ 0.4ml/gal
Floralicious + @ 1ml/gal
Great White @ 1tsp/10 gal (every other day)
AN pH Down

Day 18 Flower, after 20 day veg.

Temps 70 night, 80 day, 45% RH
2 x 1k HPS 16" above canopy, 4x8 tent, 400CFM exhaust, passive intake 24/7

My solution comes out to around 1.6EC ([email protected]) and I pH it to 5.5, because that's what I've read works best for coco. I recently had an issue with my pH meter and have been giving them 5.4 for a few days...is this what would cause the crazy yellowing? I know coco runoff isn't the best indicator, but when they started yellowing I started checking and it's in the 5.4-5.5 range....since 5.5 is acceptable I'm not sure if it's what's causing the yellowing.

Another weird thing, it's only happening to the smaller plants in the tent, the largest 3 look OK, and the buds are much bigger. It's like the 7 smaller plants are all stunting and showing this problem, it looks like a mg-, ca-, N-....

My EC runoff is only 0.1-0.2 over what I put in so that's acceptable so I don't think it's over feeding. I water once a day, the coco never gets too dry. The roots seem OK also, I use Great White every other day.

Can a pH of 5.4-5.5 really be causing all this lockout?

My nutrient profile as mixed above looks like this
N 85
P 36
K 115
Ca 99
Mg 20
S 45
Si 41
Mn 2
Mo .02

Those numbers, minus the slightly low Mg, don't seem to be bad, and I've had 2 grows before this with the same clones, same solution, same temps etc. that did great.

All opinions welcome! Thanks guys



Also went into another tent to find this dead one.....any idea why it did this? These are on the same feeding solution listed above, but are on day 32 Flower...this one just died in the course of 2 days Same feeding as the rest of them.

I've also noticed this run, now that temps hit 80F, my buds are falling over at day 28, they usually don't start to fall over, if at all, until day 40+.......I know buds falling over from weight isn't exactly something to complain about, but it never happens this early....I was under the impression that 80F is OK as long as you have good circulation? Some falling over buds on day 32...

A couple things..

One.. whatever caused that plant to die COULD be a serious problem in your grow room.
I've only seen plants fall one after another so abruptly one time before.. That was a fucking rat gnawing on the trunks (building an expensive nest)..
Whatever is the cause in YOUR grow.. could be something that if not addressed could take more plants, soon.
My guess?
Vermin
Root Pest
Root Disease
Damaged trunk
Something.. the plant is not staying hydrated.

As to the yellowing.. might have something to do with your nutrient setup..

Try Dyna Gro 7-9-5, Pro Tekt, Cal Mag+, Great White (GW being optional)

I bet you see no yellowing of the sort with that setup..

Ano

About the plant that withered and died, I just remembered a lower branch actually just snapped right at the main stem and drooped to the ground. Nothing touched it to break it, it just did it by itself....I wired it back up and it looks normal which is why I forgot, but this was a week ago...the plant looked decent until two days ago so I'm not even sure if it's from the branch breaking. WHY the branch just broke and fell under it's own weight is another question.

Using the nutrient profile calculator, using the Dyna Gro and CalMag would give me almost the same profile as I am running now so I'm not sure if it would make a difference, what I have seems to be an acute lockout of something.

Checking out the plant abuse chart pictures it seems like Iron deficiency is my best bet, but it only locks out at HIGH pH 6.5>...I have LOW pH problems. Looking at CNS17 it doesn't even list Iron as an ingredient so that could be the problem, but I can't imagine them leaving out a required element for plant life in a stand-alone nutrient.

As of right now, I made up 30 gallons (3 gallons per plant) of a flush solution of

5ml/gal CalMag+ (for what looks like the Mg- and Fe-)
7.5ml/gal CNS17 Bloom (half dose)
0.4ml Drip Clean (helps flushing elements from the coco)

Going to pH the flush solution to 6.0 to hopefully bring the coco root zone above the 5.4-5.5 it's sitting at now, hopefully this will help.

i dont know why that plant died. but you do need to fix the ph ,as you can see on the chart you are locking out N,P,Mg .

agreed, raise your ph to round 5.9- 6.1

Thanks for the replies guys. That chart has been proven wrong, but thank you and still you are right about the pH being off.

So I know Coco runoff pH is sketchy at best, and I'm going to do a slurry test layer when I can get some distilled water, but I made my flush mix as follows

1ml/gal pro tekt
7.5ml/gal cns17 bloom
5ml/gal calmag+
0.4 ml/gal drip clean
1 scoop/10 gal great white


Came out to 1.5EC and since I'm trying to raise the pH I set it to 6.1. After flushing 3 gallons through the 3 gallon pots, the p of tthe runoff DROPPED to 5.35! What does this indicate? As a test, I raised the last 3 gallons for the last plant to 6.7 pH and the runoff STILL came out at 5.4! Does this mean my the actual pH in the Coco at the root zone is really probably in the 4's? That would explain the crazy lockout.... But then my question is

How the hell do I raise it if 3 gallons of 6.7 flush didn't budge it from 5.35? I know Coco kind of "sets" it's pH after awhile and will always try and buffer back to that.... Well how do I RE-set it? I'm thinking my constant watering at 5.5 must have "set" it there and then something happened to make it drop and since it was already at the lowest end of acceptable, now I'm messed up.

I'm going to try flushing again tonight with another 30 gallons at 6.5 pH and see what happens.

Thanks for the replies again.

Flushed again with 6.5pH solution, still coming out at 5.4

Looks like it's getting worse.






As I said before, not sure if this helps diagnosis, but two of the ten plants in the tent, the biggest two, are doing perfectly fine. They have been getting the same exact solution as the rest, same light, same everything, they are in the same tent. I'm not sure if it's just a coincidence that they are the biggest two, but I have a hunch it has something to do with it, I just have no idea what. Here is a pic of one of the two good ones, in the sea of yellowing smaller ones..

Are the girls all the same strain? From the same plant? Or all from seed? Those are the questions I would ask first.

Secondly, something about those plants is causing the root zone pH to be way off, so it seems.

Doesn't it go, that each plant is unique and will want what it wants, which will be different from what any other plant wants?

Possibly these plants that are having the pH issues need a different feed mixture? Also, I would flush around 6.8-7 and see what you get.

I'd question the quality of your coir and any sodium chloride issues and advise to cut the K a bit and increase the N. Also, that is not a complete food regiment. You're only giving your plants 9 elements not the 16 found in one part products like Dyna-Gro.

Looks like micros and N deficiencies to me. What happened to the micros like Cu, Fe, Zn, etc? If deficient the symptom will be new and young leaves that are yellow and chlorotic.

You don't really think these cannabis specific vendors are worried about leaving out 2 of the most important micros required for plant health - Fe and Zn, do you?

Plants don't just need three or sixteen nutrients to grow.

Think about the plethora of minerals, there's at least 90 that plants can make use of.

hydrolyzed, the replies are going to get you into more trouble.

I still see problems with the "two good ones".

keysareme said:

Plants don't just need three or sixteen nutrients to grow.

Think about the plethora of minerals, there's at least 90 that plants can make use of.

Click to expand...

Wrong. You need to learn something about plant nutrition basics..... the 16 essential elements - macro, secondary and micro. There are a few that may be beneficial such as sellenium and silicon but they are not required for good plant performance.

He got off to a bad start using cannabis specific foods which have the wrong NPK values and are not complete. When are some of you ever gonna learn?

Of course everyone wants to take the easy way out (because they don't have a clue) and blame pH.

UB

I'm not sure why or for what reason you chose to take it where you did ben, but ya did.

I am talking about organic cultivation with compost, worm castings, mulch and no bottled nutrients at all. Worm Castings are plentiful in Iron and Zinc. When you take away the bottle, and just add water, continue to mulch the top layer, and let your soil and the worms and recyclers work for you, all the nourishment your plant could want to grow at its very best are available. Especially the trace minerals, rock mineral dust an fossilized kelp man. All that works to keep your soil alive with the beneficial fungi and nematodes working as well to make all the minerals and nutrients readily available whenever you plant may want them.

I ran with bottled nutrients for my first, second and third grow(s). All have been successful and healthy, clean medicine. The nutrients are organic, sustainably farmed, and cannabis specific for sure, and it can be either a 4 part, 8 part or 14 part nutrient line. You could probably even just use the very first product alone and be fine. Now I'm going with my own organic vegan super soil, no bottles of nutrients at all. My point is, while yes some and or most cannabis specific foods may be lacking in important and necessary elements and minerals for optimum plant growth which includes root health and development/mass, I do not feel that there is such a thing as a "bad start" in trying any sort of cannabis specific nutrients out. Now he knows for sure what that particular nutrient is like and hopefully can use this wisdom to make a choice from here about how he wants to nourish his plants. Hopefully. And how else would he have discovered this? I'm not sure, other than by experiencing it. So in this view, I say it is a great start, because he got out of the way one huge obstacle that people encounter with any sort of plant growth. Now he knows what to do from here.

Not once did the rainforest ever say to the rain, hey could you lower your pH a little, your a bit to alkaline for my taste. Grow on.

keysareme said:

Plants don't just need three or sixteen nutrients to grow.

Think about the plethora of minerals, there's at least 90 that plants can make use of.

Click to expand...

I use only water + the essential elements in a similar way (true hydroponics) scientists did over 150 years ago to determine what the (first) essential elements were. It's basic botany. Google 'essential elements plants'.

keysareme said:

as well to make all the minerals and nutrients readily available whenever you plant may want them.

Click to expand...

That sentence shows you don't really understand what you are talking about.

Sativied said:

I use only water + the essential elements in a similar way (true hydroponics) scientists did over 150 years ago to determine what the (first) essential elements were. It's basic botany. Google 'essential elements plants'.

Click to expand...

That's cool, but there are still at least 90 minerals that your soil and plant can make use of. If your growing in a hyrdo configuration then you really don't care about your medium, and you make your plants dependent upon you for their food. When you build your own soil, and establish it how nature is out in the forest an organic eco system of life, composting, mulching, worms, castings and the recyclers that go and make all the organic nourishment accessible to the roots, therefore to the plant, and ensuring that the soil is truly alive, a balanced organic and naturally buffered soil where all you need is water. I am well aware of what I am doing, I have an immense amount of organic compost that has been cooking since october, of only organic fruit and vegetable scraps, a plethora of birthing happy worms amidst the trays of stacked compost worm tower, a healthy top layering of mulch and all the minerals and elements any plant could want, all mixed and cooking ready to be put into a garden bed. It's simple, we need to stop trying to do what life does best, and that is organically grow, compost, break down, decompose, make use, grow, produce, fruit, balance and sustain itself on its own, and we need to just grow organically.

keysareme said:

That's cool, but there are still at least 90 minerals that your soil and plant can make use of.

Click to expand...

You lost me at '90' again. Please stop posting such erroneous claims , the forum is already bursting from such nonsense that go against the facts. Although you now said "soil and plant"... Seriously man, if not essential and not beneficial it's not essential and not beneficial. Plants don't eat whatever you throw in the water. As UB pointed out, you need to learn about basic plant nutrition, or more specifically nutrient uptake. About cations and anions exchange.

You might as well claim that PI is 5.28... facts are facts, invalid arguments (plants can use 90 minerals) are just that, invalid. Why repeat them after you've been proven to be wrong? Cannabis discussion forums... I will never get it.

I think your use of great white might have something to do with your problems- that stuff only needs to be used a couple times through out your grow and I've always been under the impression that supplementing with it too much can actually cause similar symptoms to what your seeing. Once your medium is innoculated you shouldn't have to re-apply it-I only use it when I pot-up, so approx 3 applications during the entire cycle.

Thanks for the replies.

Keysareme, I respect and understand what your saying, but I'm asking for help for my plants that are already established in coco medium, halfway into flower. Your post, while informative, pretty much tells me I need to make my own soil and grow organically. Maybe I will try that in the future, but it does nothing for my problem now. Thank you though.

Squidbilly, I actually emailed Plant Success about that...I used to have an issue with the "slime" (cyanobacteria) when I was in hydro, which is why I switched to coco. I was using Orca (pretty much liquid version of Great White) when I started coco a few months ago, and asked them if I could apply it more than every 2-3 weeks recommended. My theory was that I think that recommendation is for mainly soil growers, and also hydro growers that have recirculating systems. Since I do Coco drain to waste with 20% runoff each day, I was concerned that I would be washing out all the beneficial bacteria from the initial inoculation. Another reason they only recommend every so often is because it would be a waste of the mycos in it since the spores will germinate and colonize the medium from the first inoculation, but I was more interested and worried about keeping a good level of the beneficial bacteria in my medium. When I explained this to them in the Email, they agreed with me that the bennies would be flushed out in the first two or three waterings without the Orca (or GW), and that I would be OK using the Orca/GW every other day. That of course doesn't mean it isn't my issue!

Uncle Ben, thanks for the informative reply. I was wondering where all the other nutrients were also, once I read the label I was like "where the hell is all the rest??" My only issue with this theory of CNS being incomplete, is that my first two complete cycles (the last two) were perfectly fine using CNS17...the only issue I saw was some minor Ca- and Mg- in the first two weeks of flowering, which I think is kind of normal for coco if you don't know to supplement both in the first few weeks. All plants are the same Pheno from the same mother. What issues do you see with my two "not-so-good" ones? I agree that the nutrients seem incomplete but that doesn't explain why they worked fine for the first two cycles, from clone to harvest using the CNS Grow/Bloom/Ripe.

My coco is the compressed brick Botanicare CoCoGro....hydrated with RO water + 0.4EC calmag+, pH'ed to 5.8. I usually will rinse it 3:1 (3 gallons of hydrating solution per gallon coco) once I plant them, and by the time the last gallon comes out the EC is 0.45, telling me I hypothetically only have an extra 25ppm of most likely sodium left in it.

Here is the MSDS ingredient list, it appears those are in there, just not on the label

1.CSN17 Bloom
INGREDIENTS:
Calcium Nitrate
Mono-Potassium Phosphate
Potassium Nitrate
Magnesium Sulphate,
Iron EDTA (Fe)
Manganese Sulfate
Boric Acid
Zinc Sulfate (Zn)
Copper Sulfate (Cu)
Amonium Molybdate
Nickle Sulfate
Cobalt Sulfate
Potassium Iodide,
Potassium Dichromate
Sodium Selenate
Acozine Blue or Rubinol red.

I used the elemental symbol on the ones you listed as being missing, at least I think those are correct. So, it seems maybe the CNS is more complete than we thought, are we back to the low pH being my issue?

Anyways, I did another 3 gallon per plant flush last night, and the runoff was 5.6-5.7pH...getting there. Slurry test 2 hours after watering was 5.6, so hopefully they will start getting better.

Thanks A LOT for the replies guys.

"That's cool, but there are still at least 90 minerals that your soil and plant can make use of."

That's a feeling, not a fact. Know the difference....makes life a lot less confusing.

Squidbilly said:

I think your use of great white might have something to do with your problems- that stuff only needs to be used a couple times through out your grow and I've always been under the impression that supplementing with it too much can actually cause similar symptoms to what your seeing. Once your medium is innoculated you shouldn't have to re-apply it-I only use it when I pot-up, so approx 3 applications during the entire cycle.

Click to expand...

Hate to pop your bubble but myco fungi aka Great White, is worthless in potting soils.

hydrolyzed said:

Here is the MSDS ingredient list, it appears those are in there, just not on the label

1.CSN17 Bloom
INGREDIENTS:
Calcium Nitrate
Mono-Potassium Phosphate
Potassium Nitrate
Magnesium Sulphate,
Iron EDTA (Fe)
Manganese Sulfate
Boric Acid
Zinc Sulfate (Zn)
Copper Sulfate (Cu)
Amonium Molybdate
Nickle Sulfate
Cobalt Sulfate
Potassium Iodide,
Potassium Dichromate
Sodium Selenate
Acozine Blue or Rubinol red.

Click to expand...

But to what degree? Don't care about the MSDS, only the GA:
Guaranteed Analysis:

• Total Nitrogen (N): 2.0%, 0.09% Ammoniacal Nitrogen, 1.91% Nitrate Nitrogen
• Available Phosphate (P2O5): 2.0%
• Soluble Potash (K2O): 3.0%
• Calcium (Ca): 2.5%
• Magnesium (Mg): 0.5%, 0.5% Water Soluble Magnesium (Mg)
• Sulfur (S): 1.14%, 1.14% Combined Sulfur (S)
• Manganese (Mn): 0.05%, 0.05% Water Soluble Manganese (Mn)
• Molybdenum (Mo): 0.0005%

Derived from: Calcium Nitrate, Magnesium Sulfate, Potassium Nitrate, Monopotassium Phosphate, Manganese Sulfate, Ammonium Molybdate.

I don't see any iron, zinc, or copper micros listed.

This is what through me off too:

My nutrient profile as mixed above looks like this
N 85
P 36
K 115
Ca 99
Mg 20
S 45
Si 41
Mn 2
Mo .02

Ca and K are high, N is low, micros are missing. Doesn't matter about the others, I'm seeing a micro deficiency which always shows up in the new growth. If you have some zinc sulfate and iron sulfate, hit them with a dose of that. Kicker is how much and how long will it take before you see results? I'm using a gifted product which I'm very much enamored with - Keyplex 350 DP. I guaranty either via a mild foliar spray or a decent soil drench, your problems would be over. Firm gifted me with 5 gallons! Only using this as an example of what I think might help which if you notice are secondary and trace elements.

http://www.keyplex.com/images/specimen-labels/KeyPlex-350-JugLabel.pdf

There have been many a time that I looked at the same product at several sites, and the GA was different. I don't trust these firms, not like I do firms like Dyna-Gro or Peters.

The supplement page - 15 frickin' supplements designed to rip you off.
http://www.botanicare.com/Products/Plant-Supplements.aspx

I love how arrogant some of you are. It's as if you think your some superior human being cause you've grown cannabis for awhile.

The fact that you say it's just a feeling shows me how closed off to True organic growing you are.

I encourage you to run a side by side and show me the results.

Just because your uncle Ben doesn't meant your some Special all knowing of the true way of existence being.

The OP even agrees that he might be interested to make his own organic super living soil from here out. Did you not read that?

And you continue to tell him that beneficial fungi like great white will have no purpose in potting soils? Man. Where and for what reason would you want to tell someone that? It is a beneficial fungi that will help with root development.

I think I know more than most of you want to acknowledge. I'm coming from a spiritul place of connection with the plants, soil and ecosystem existing within it. You want to grow good plants, go ahead and stick to your bottled nutrients and make your plants dependent, just like the government wants all humans to be, or grow organically and grow plants to their maximum potential and allow your soil to be alive and provide all the organically occurring nourishment, that already exists in the soil, to be made a available and accessible by the roots and plant. It is a simple reality call life.

Don't try and write of the truth because it's now how you choose to do your growing, and don't tell someone that something is worthless, all life has value bro.

Oh yea, and it's not about putting something in your water to give to your plants, where did you get that I am saying that about the 90 minerals. Your supposed to mix and amend it all into your soil bro. Get with it, look at the rainforest or redwood Forrest. That's what I am talking about, that's how I grow.

Just because you've been doing it a certain way for awhile doesn't meant your way is the best, again look at the rainforest and redwood Forrest, for longer than you and I have been in these bodies, the environment has been successfully sustaining life.