Just what is the nature of Capitalism

medicineman

New Member
Here is what Wiki says: "There is little controversy that private ownership of the means of production, creation of goods or services for profit in a market, and prices and wages are elements of capitalism."
One must by this account surmise that without capital, capitalism would not exist. The right to own property, own businesses, and work in a free environment should not be restricted by government. There are however, some rules that need apply. First, we must ask ourselves some pertinent questions.
1. Should the employer (Business Owner) be able to regulate all aspects of their businesses without government interference, (Rules)?
2. Should the employee be made to accept all the employers mandates, or be shuffeled off to unemployment?
3. Is there actually something called fairness in the workplace?
4. Should the employees be allowed to organize for the betterment of their conditions, both in workplace conditions and wages and benefits?
5.Does owning the "business" actually give the employer power over the workers outside of their production, and if and when does this take precedent over human values?
6. Is the relationship between the Business owner and the employee strictly at the owners discretion?
Now these questions are for the business/employee relationships.
There are other aspect of Capitalism I shall now address.
Lets start with the basic premis of capitalism, Capital. Without this commodity, capitalism would not exist. Capital is the energy that drives the system. Without it, nothing would happen. Where does this capital come from?
In general, My views are this:
Capital comes from old established money sources, parents, mentors, Banks, etc. To extract capital from any of these sources requires one to either be related, have a wealthy friend, or be able to convince a bank (Without having collateral) to lend one money (capital). Why then, is capitalism such an evil system?
Capitalism is rigged from the gates. Without capital or a way to get it, one is relegated to be in the serf category, working for the "man", the capitalist.
It is a very lucky person that can break this bond. Rock stars, Gifted atheletes, movie stars, certain inventors, etc.
Capitalism is great for the capitalists, as I suspect many on this forum are, but for the common citizen, it is an evil system that robs men of their dignity and their ability to have a resourceful life. It is a system that uses capital to excert all types of cruelty to humans, raping and pillaging the poor accross the globe.
So now you may ask, what system would I replace it with? Well to be honest, I haven't invented it yet. You can be sure it would not be one that has been tried and failed, as Capitalism is on the verge of. I would first remove the top 2% from their long held positions and re-distribute that wealth to make a better living environment accross the globe, I'd leave them with a comfortable amount, but not enough to regain their power. I'd turn the tables on the most powerful and put genius class scholars to the task of re-inventing Capitalism. Yes, some form of Capitalism, or reward for hard work should be left in place, but be shared by the workers.
As I fully aknowledge, there is no perfect system at hand, and these are only suggestions, but a fairness doctrine needs to be implemented in this society, as the rich hold way too much power over how this country operates. I await my deluded friends on the rights rage, and expect no less than complete opposition to any thing I express on this forum.
 

dukeofbaja

New Member
Capitalism, in my opinion, is the worst system out there. Except for most all of the other ones.

I think it would be a lot fairer if people were just better to each other. For example, where I am here, the workers get a bonus at the end of the year if they keep maintenance under budget and the units rented. It keeps us working hard and reusing what we can to save money, workers are happy, owner is happy, good times all around.

But I suppose life was never meant to be fair...
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
Capitalism, in my opinion, is the worst system out there. Except for most all of the other ones.

I think it would be a lot fairer if people were just better to each other. For example, where I am here, the workers get a bonus at the end of the year if they keep maintenance under budget and the units rented. It keeps us working hard and reusing what we can to save money, workers are happy, owner is happy, good times all around.

But I suppose life was never meant to be fair...
No system is perfect. You will never be able to make things completely fair. Empowering individuals to be self sufficient and strive for excellence seems to be about the best thing you can do IMO. Capitalism does this best. Govt. stifles excellence and does a very poor job of creating "fairness". I hope that humanity evolves past the point where we need govt. to keep a boot on our throats. Until then.................I'll just grow some dank ass weed and keep my head down. :leaf:

Wassup Steely Dan?
 

fulbright

Member
Capital comes from old established money sources, parents, mentors, Banks, etc. To extract capital from any of these sources requires one to either be related, have a wealthy friend, or be able to convince a bank (Without having collateral) to lend one money (capital). Why then, is capitalism such an evil system?
Capitalism is rigged from the gates. Without capital or a way to get it, one is relegated to be in the serf category, working for the "man", the capitalist.
I've rewritten this below to reflect reality. ;-)

Financial capital comes from old established money sources, parents, mentors, Banks, etc. To extract financial capital from any of these sources requires one to either be related, have a wealthy friend, or be able to convince a bank (Without having collateral) to lend one money (financial capital). Why then, is capitalism such an amazing system?
Because financial capital is not the only form of capital. Capital is the resources you use to produce goods and services. Every healthy man and woman already has the foundational type of capital: LABOR*. And thankfully, as money is simply a unit to store the value of labor, all men and women can convert their labor into financial capital. That's right, folks! You have the power to create wealth!

*Labor need not be physical. It can be mental.
 

undertheice

Well-Known Member
I hope that humanity evolves past the point where we need govt. to keep a boot on our throats.
this is the point of capitalism and the path it leads us toward. none of these systems are an end unto themselves, they are a direction in which we travel. capitalism leads toward the expansion of the individual toward his potential. socialism demands that the force of the state drive the herd toward a given goal and denies individual achievement. communalism may be more productive and still allow the freedom of the individual if it is a matter of unanimous choice, but it is never thus and seems to degrade into the tyranny of the mob and then to just another authoritarian state. there are a limited number of alternatives to choose from.
 

Balzac89

Undercover Mod
Theres nothing wrong with capitalism as long as the proper regulations are put in place to protect the system from greedy assholes. Kinda like what they are tryign to pass now.
You should watch Obamas speech from yesterday it was very informative.
 

Balzac89

Undercover Mod
this is the point of capitalism and the path it leads us toward. none of these systems are an end unto themselves, they are a direction in which we travel. capitalism leads toward the expansion of the individual toward his potential. socialism demands that the force of the state drive the herd toward a given goal and denies individual achievement. communalism may be more productive and still allow the freedom of the individual if it is a matter of unanimous choice, but it is never thus and seems to degrade into the tyranny of the mob and then to just another authoritarian state. there are a limited number of alternatives to choose from.
We as the people have to make sure corruption does not thrive in our system. Then the advantage is held by us.
 

abe23

Active Member
The problem is that there are finite resources in the world and there needs to be some sort of mechanism to distribute them fairly and efficiently. Capitalism itself fails at the fairly part and socialism fails at the efficient part. This is why the US, as well as every industrialized country in the world, has a system that falls somewhere in between with government spending making up for part of gdp, regulated markets, protections for consumers and employees etc within a free-market based economy. No?
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
The problem is that there are finite resources in the world and there needs to be some sort of mechanism to distribute them fairly and efficiently. Capitalism itself fails at the fairly part and socialism fails at the efficient part. This is why the US, as well as every industrialized country in the world, has a system that falls somewhere in between with government spending making up for part of gdp, regulated markets, protections for consumers and employees etc within a free-market based economy. No?
I don't think there are too many who will argue for absolutely pure capitalism or absolutely pure socialism. Most of us agree that neither would work. How much of either is too much is the real question. Capitalism without regulation would surely be disastrous. I personally think the goal should be to put up as little regulation as possible. Of course there are always going to be some who will find ways around regulations. Does this mean we should tack on more regulations? Won't some people simply find ways around those regulations as well? Freedom isn't free. There will always be those who take advantage no matter what system is in place. At some point govt. becomes too bloated and inefficient. Therefore we try to strike a balance. You can't have too much regulation because it becomes very costly and the regulations start to become an obstacle to liberty and innovation. Accountability in govt. is what's needed, not more regulation. :weed:
 

medicineman

New Member
The problem is not with the regulations, although surely more are needed in the financial snd mining industries for example. It is the lack of enforcement and vigilance on the part of the regulators and government oversight committees that are the real problem. I am not completely anti-capitalism. I actually think a modified version of capitalism would work very well. Certainly not a free market system. That would certainly run rampant with unfettered greed, like the present system. More like a worker owned environment with no possibility of speculators or wall street clowns making money out of thin air. Talk about earning money, those wall street crooks, although without a doubt extremely smart, make money by cheating the workers and the country out of money by false profit. (Are you listening CJ?) Profit should go to those that earn it, not those that buy and sell the companies on a daily basis. The premis that a company can be owned by speculators is bogus. I know, that is our current system, but it sucks for the average guy/Gal. Put ownership into the hands of employees and I'll wager profit will rise, employee attitude would peak, and everyone could make a real decent living. As for failed businesses, everyone would be out of a job. Of course, those at the top would be compensated accordingly.
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
The problem is not with the regulations, although surely more are needed in the financial snd mining industries for example. It is the lack of enforcement and vigilance on the part of the regulators and government oversight committees that are the real problem. I am not completely anti-capitalism. I actually think a modified version of capitalism would work very well. Certainly not a free market system. That would certainly run rampant with unfettered greed, like the present system. More like a worker owned environment with no possibility of speculators or wall street clowns making money out of thin air. Talk about earning money, those wall street crooks, although without a doubt extremely smart, make money by cheating the workers and the country out of money by false profit. (Are you listening CJ?) Profit should go to those that earn it, not those that buy and sell the companies on a daily basis. The premis that a company can be owned by speculators is bogus. I know, that is our current system, but it sucks for the average guy/Gal. Put ownership into the hands of employees and I'll wager profit will rise, employee attitude would peak, and everyone could make a real decent living. As for failed businesses, everyone would be out of a job. Of course, those at the top would be compensated accordingly.
These types of employee owned companies already exist. In fact they usually do quite well. I think most people agree that Wall Street is broken (maybe not the guys getting extremely rich). It sure as hell isn't gonna be fixed by the clowns in power now. Look who Obama has stuffed his cabinet with. It's like a Goldman Sachs holiday party! For a long time politics has been too cozy with Wall Street. I look for Obama to do some b.s. regulation that won't do shit to fix the real problems in Wall Street. What's needed IMO is more transparency. I consider myself of average or maybe slightly above average intelligence and I can't figure out more than half the shit going on in the financial sector! :dunce: I'm not that interested in money though. I simply want a quiet, comfortable existence. Live and let live, I say! :-P
 

dukeofbaja

New Member
Put ownership into the hands of employees and I'll wager profit will rise, employee attitude would peak, and everyone could make a real decent living. As for failed businesses, everyone would be out of a job.

Such is the situation where I am lucky enough to be working right now. The full time employees get a bonus at the end of the year based on a fair estimate of what costs should be from my soon to be father in law. I am a damn hard worker, and have been working 10 hour days for 8 hours pay recently, but what the full time employees do regularly on a daily basis would wear me out. No breaks, they never seem to get tired or waste time, it is just balls to the wall work. Capitalism can work, if folks are good to each other and not so distant as often occurs in corporate type settings.

I look for Obama to do some b.s. regulation that won't do shit to fix the real problems in Wall Street.

I will also be eager to see if whatever bill passes is not so heavily watered down as to be disgusting....like health care reform. Why no fucking public option? I guess I will have to see what these high risk exchanges are like before deciding what I think of it for sure.

I consider myself of average or maybe slightly above average intelligence and I can't figure out more than half the shit going on in the financial sector! :dunce: I'm not that interested in money though. I simply want a quiet, comfortable existence.

Myself as well, good sir. I just like the simple things and can't understand the greedy dollar chasing that goes on....luckily I have the RIU politics section to rile me up when my existence gets too quiet and comfortable

PS - Thanks for getting the Steely Dan reference! +rep if I can
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
What is stopping a person or a group of persons from forming their own business? Hint...It isn't the free market. We don't have a free market in this country, it still has vestiges of it, but to suggest there is a "free market" is incorrect. We have very heavily regulated markets. Even kids trying to run Kool-Aid stands are subject to regulation.

Heavily regulated markets add costs and barriers to entry, thus decreasing competition and increasing prices to consumers.

One of the biggest scams of "regulation" is the scam concerning what is to be used for currency and how "money" is created. That market is tightly held by government and their partners in crime the Federal Reserve and The IMF. Any discussion of free markets should first start with an understanding of how the wool has been pulled over the masses eyes concerning this money creation monopoly.

Ever wonder why a candy bar costs a dollar now and thirty years ago they were .20?

Begging for "regulation" from "them" to save us is exactly what caused most of the financial problems in the first place. The Creature from Jekyll Island is a good book to start with to understand just how insidious the money "creators" are.
 
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