Kitty's 6000 Watt Ebb & Flo, pictures galore, continually updated never ending oh no!

Hello. Welcome to my grow journal. I welcome all comments and constructive criticism! +++rep for those who post good questions or for those with good suggestions!

**** HELP **** If you find something I've fucked up, or could be doing better, tell me!! This journal isnt for my bragging rights, its so I can teach newbies and experts can teach me!!


************* DISCUSSION THREAD FOR THIS GROW JOURNAL IS HERE:

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journal-discussion/316433-kittys-6000-watt-ebb-flo.html

I've grown in the past with other methods, and now that I moved into a new home, thought it would be time to try a new system out and expand a little more. The room you see was dug out of the side of a mountain underneath the foundation of the house. The room was then leveled, slab poured, dried, and voila, a nice little grow room. Right now there's only two 1000w lamps, there will be 4 more on the way for future cycles. Right now, this is just the first cycle, and in the photos you'll see seedlings that are in their first week of veg. I generally wont be vegging in this room, but since there's nothing flowering, why not for now.

Hardware!

- 2000w lamps (upgrading to add 4000w more over the next 4 weeks for 6000w total, to accommodate a 3-cycle harvest)
- Generic air cooled hood
- Carbon filter attached to a Vortex 8" then downsized for the 6" holes and attached to a variable speed fan controller.
- No air intake to the room yet, will add one later.
- "RastaGrow" Ebb & Flow system with all the buckets.
- Exhaust goes through ventilation of a 3 story home
- Nutradip Tri-Meter for pH/ppm/temp.
- Humboldt Nutrients Grow/Micro/Bloom and ProZyme, Flavorful, Big Up Powder, and a few others (all on their 8wk moderate feeding chart)
- Also add H2O2 and Sea Cal / Sea Mag (Humboldts version of CalMag)
- Hydroton as the medium
- There is no RO water as tap water here is 40ppm. It's actually fresh mountain water since this is a very remote and quiet area.

The strains I'm vegging right now are all from Nirvana. Their seeds have been very reliable for me over the years. I plan to make a mommie for each of the strains as once the other 66% of the flowering lights are installed, the other 4000w worth, there will be 3 harvest cycles.

- Northern Lights
- Bubblicious
- White Widow
- New York Power Diesel
- Snow White

Normally I wouldnt want to flower so many varieties under two lights, but with a new system I want to test each strain immediately. After a while, it'll be one strain per light that way I can guarantee a nice and even canopy.

I wouldnt recommend the RastaGrow system over a CAP ebb & flow system, the RastaGrow has shitty hosing, DIY boxes all over it, clumsy wiring, etc... Reworked a lot of it to meet my standards. They didnt even have a secure way to attach the hoses to the pumps without them slipping off. Changed the hoses to blue clear and flexible hosing, fixed their floats, fixed the wiring on the timer, etc... Yikes. I do really like the colorful pots, makes it easy to identify strains if you utilize them to your advantage! Each light will flower 9 buckets, and I plan to experiment down to only 4 buckets per light by using Uncle Ben's topping method and an undetermined amount of veg time.

In each of the 2.5 gallon buckets, the growing medium will be Hydroton. Looked at the Sure-to-Grow's pot inserts, but everyone gave them negative reviews, I wish that they would work because it'd be a lot less work filling new pots up. The reservoir is 55 gallons in capacity, but I'm only filling it up to 40 gallons right now. There's simply no need for the extra water waste while the plants are tiny little superguys. Today (3/28/10) the plants are all about 3"-4" in height and on day 11 of vegging.

You'll also notice that the filter and vortex fan are suspended from the ceiling by ropes. This is to keep the noise and vibrations a fan can make suspended, thus non-existant. It also allows me to move and re-position the fan and filter without having to rewire walls. All of the lights are also suspended with rope along with the filter/fan, and all can be adjusted in height by retying it down at the post.

Inside the reservoir, there are two large airstones keeping the water perfect. There's also an temperature set aquarium heater set to 71(f) to keep the res water at the perfect temperature too. In addition, I use H2O2 as many have suggested here on RIU to ensure that the water is the best it can be. (Did you know H2O2 has a pH of 2.1? It also makes your finger skin flake off if you touch it. )

I chose Humboldt Nutrients because of reviews and simplicity. Their 5 or 6 part YouTube instructional videos sold me on their technical knowledge and exactly what each product was meant for. At first I wanted to go just Grow/Micro/Bloom, but ultimately splurged on the full line of nutrients. Their Humboldt Roots comes in a 50ml jar for $25, and for two lights, you use one jar every week for the first 5-6 weeks of total veg/flower time! You can tell the potentcy though as soon as you uncap it and the odor comes out. Good god that stuff stinks!!

Why did I get an 8" and then duct it down to 6" for the light cooling? I want to ensure that I have over-adequate cooling, so the theory behind this was to get a bigger fan than needed, and use the variable speed fan control to keep it about half speed and then in the summer if it gets toasty, I have additional CFM I can put through without making an existing fan in the grow room obsolete.

There isnt any CO2, I'll address whether or not I'll use it later, have a long time before flowering actually starts. I think I want to flower when these ladies get 24"-30" tall. The extra few pots that arent connected to water lines are for 3 mommies that are just borrowing some veg room for now. There's two plants that look a little whimsical, so I may toss a few more seeds down to get better Mmommies.

Please remember, I'm not an expert at growing, I just know what I know from having done it a good bit and from researching and reading and watching videos etc.... If you have any input or suggestions, I'm ALL ears!! +++rep for those who post good questions or for those with good suggestions!

Thanks for stopping by. I will be updating this thread every few days with new photos, construction of the new light upgrades, construction of the new vegging & mommy room, and some HOWTO's for other Ebb & Flo users over time.

Kitty (That's the nickname for one of my dogs, you can imagine, he isnt large)

DISCUSSION FORUM HERE: https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journal-discussion/316433-kittys-6000-watt-ebb-flo.html

Have you grown bubblicious before? I have the chance to get it and hadn't heard much on it from other growers. Your start looks awesome, and it looks like you definitely did your research. Ill be checking back in!

ievolution said:

Have you grown bubblicious before? I have the chance to get it and hadn't heard much on it from other growers. Your start looks awesome, and it looks like you definitely did your research. Ill be checking back in!

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Thanks. +rep to you. I grew bubblicious only once before, and it was in a grow box that only went 30" tall. It was a very nice, pink-ish smelling herb that worked. I'd recommend you try if you're an indoors guy.

I love the Rasta colors on the buckets. Nice setup kitty. Subscribed.


I do love me some Diesel. I have been growing Grapefruit X NYCD for years, definatey a personal fav.

Your setup is quite nice. You have so much room!! you can grow monsters in there if you have ample time and patience for veg, I mean flowering is 8-11 weeks usually but you can veg the living shit outta those girls... I mean once you pull your males (hopefully not many ) I am a beginner who has dabbled with some outdoor, a failed indoor crop (mites) and I have studied and studied and studied... haha I just started my first real show about a week ago, got all 40 of my clones potted in a soiless medium (OG KUSH) I hear that is a badass strain...can't wait. I have a 10 x 10 x 7.5 tall room, 4 1000 watt lights ( 2 mh, 2 hps ) like you I have an 8 inch vortex from a large carbon can. I have all general hydroponics nutes: micro, grow, bloom, diamond nectar, grozyme and kool bloom for the last three weeks. i have a grow zone temp control hooked up to my fan and it seems to work great. I am not skipping any aspect of keeping the environment healthy and optimal. One question, have you noticed any issues with having your lights right over top of those tiny plants? I had mine directly under just the 1 MH 1000's and they started dying a bit... I was told that I should NOT! have them anywhere near that much light until they get alot bigger so I moved them to the other side of my room and they perked right up. I just noticed yours are bang under those (HPS?) 1000's. If yours are surviving mine should be too lol. I tried powering up one of my hps 1000's with a MH with the plants aways away from the light and, again, they cowered in fear. So now I'm chicken shit on what to do, everyone has a different answer for me lol. i will stay connected with you through your thread for trading tips and advice if your interested. Good luck for now and have a good one

northeastern lights said:

I love the Rasta colors on the buckets. Nice setup kitty. Subscribed.

I do love me some Diesel. I have been growing Grapefruit X NYCD for years, definatey a personal fav.

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Thanks! I really wish the Rasta system was more professionally setup, but thankfully since almost everything in an Ebb/Gro is from Home Depot (or parts that work as subs!) it was easy to overcome. The colored buckets are a great idea, although one thing that they dont tell you that I didnt consider either, is that you cant really move a black bottom bucket to a red bottom buckets spot without moving both buckets for a "true" color change. But still, easy to unplug and move one real fast anyway. Strangely I'm using colored twist ties rather than the buckets for strain identification right now

BCBuddy420 said:

Your setup is quite nice. You have so much room!! you can grow monsters in there if you have ample time and patience for veg, I mean flowering is 8-11 weeks usually but you can veg the living shit outta those girls... I mean once you pull your males (hopefully not many ) I am a beginner who has dabbled with some outdoor, a failed indoor crop (mites) and I have studied and studied and studied... haha I just started my first real show about a week ago, got all 40 of my clones potted in a soiless medium (OG KUSH) I hear that is a badass strain...can't wait. I have a 10 x 10 x 7.5 tall room, 4 1000 watt lights ( 2 mh, 2 hps ) like you I have an 8 inch vortex from a large carbon can. I have all general hydroponics nutes: micro, grow, bloom, diamond nectar, grozyme and kool bloom for the last three weeks. i have a grow zone temp control hooked up to my fan and it seems to work great. I am not skipping any aspect of keeping the environment healthy and optimal. One question, have you noticed any issues with having your lights right over top of those tiny plants? I had mine directly under just the 1 MH 1000's and they started dying a bit... I was told that I should NOT! have them anywhere near that much light until they get alot bigger so I moved them to the other side of my room and they perked right up. I just noticed yours are bang under those (HPS?) 1000's. If yours are surviving mine should be too lol. I tried powering up one of my hps 1000's with a MH with the plants aways away from the light and, again, they cowered in fear. So now I'm chicken shit on what to do, everyone has a different answer for me lol. i will stay connected with you through your thread for trading tips and advice if your interested. Good luck for now and have a good one

Click to expand...

Thanks! Right now I plan to veg for 24-36" and then later perhaps a little more when using Uncle Ben's 4 cola topping method. I figured with 4 buckets there and an extra week of veg per light would end up making the same canopy for the same yield.

There should be no males as these are all fem seeds. Never know about a hermie though! I havent gotten a hermie in about 2 years.

You'll really dig your OG Kush strain. That's a very popular Los Angeles-desired strain. It smells very different, looks very different, and tastes very yummy. I will be buying Dr Greensomeones seeds from Canada later for the OG Kush, I didnt want to dump the $150-ish on a packet of seeds till I knew the Ebb/Gro system was dialed in perfectly. One thing to note, you'll yield less with OG Kush than other strains, another reason it typically brings more $/oz than other strains.

For the vegging under 1000w MH lamps (They will be HPS for flower, of course)........ A lot of people dont take into consideration that it's 1000w only a few inches from the lamp. Once you're about 36" away your spreading the light out enough where it doesnt burn the plants. I think the most common mistake is people putting them under big lights too close, then feeding them too much nutrients for their first week to give them poor results. Keep the temps down lights up and you'll be fine.

Despite this, I'll still be building a mother room with them under a 96w T5 4-bulber, and the veg area in the same room will probably use something similar or a lower wattage bulb. I need to research this a lot more, though. Lucas of the Lucas Formula demonstrated perfectly where YIELD is a result of the amount of kWh in Veg, rather than kWh in Flower. End of summer plants get less light, so it makes sense. I want to maximize it so that the plants get as much veg as possible to get them as 4 pots under the 4-cola method per 1kW lamp.

Thanks for the comments, keep em coming!!

Kitty

Today I made an official foliar spray from Humboldt nutrients. Used Sea Cal, Sea Mag, FlaVorful and the Honey Carbs in a gallon jug, made sure pH and ppm was good with it, then put a sprayer on the jug and away we go! The foliar spray will only be used until the second week of flowering, after that its best *not* to use it.

Hey there, thanks for the info on the strain and lighting. I went and got a 400 watt MH for the 40 clones in 3 gal. pots (gives you an idea of the space needed) It was hanging 3 feet above spread over the younguns evenly...but I thought I may get away with bringing it down a foot, now it seems like the outer plants will not recieve alot of light as the width and length of all those pots, even tightly together, is about 6 x 7 feet. I like the topping method myself, I've used it plenty for outdoor. It's give you wide and bushy beauties... if you have the patience to veg them long enough to get the desired effect of the 4 cola canopy, than power to ya! I just wanna get my plants to about 16-18 inches and begin budding cycle, so from right now I'm expecting 4 more weeks of veg than 9 weeks flower. I've heard that OG is a heavy yielder from several sources being that it is an indica dominant strain ( you should see the dark, pretty wide leaves on my girls ) therefore supposedly it will produce a heavy, dense, smelly crop... not saying your wrong but what makes you thing the kush is a light but potent yielder? Just curious. When using your 4 cola method with a 4 plant per light arrangement, you will have 16 sweet colas per 1000 watt, let me know what you pull for ounces off of each light because I think it will be impressive and i'm gonna copy you down the road! lol i plan on utilizing many methods in the future, sooner than later. I just want to get the basics of keeping a WONDERFUL environment for the plants, then add to my growing knowledge. Things like light movers, co2 treatments(very interesting) foliar feeding and hydroponics as I am using soiless mix by HP and have never done any hydro, I know it's easy, I'm just not ready. What would you suggest for lighting in a veg room I will have soon for a crop that will flower under 4 1000 watt lights. About that.... You said I would use the HPS for flowering well that's true but I will also be using the two MH 1000's as well, i was told that reproducing the spectrum of nature is obtained by adding half/half MH, HPS lighting, the pros that grow around here do it and swear by it, so that's what I bought. Anyways tell me more about why you like some strains more than others for growing and what equipment you prefer to use, I will give you a quick list of what I have for a 4 light room: 2 mh, 2 hps, 8 inch vortex, oscillating fan, growzone pp2 temperature control with a sensor cord hanging at plant height, hooked up to the fan keeping my room at 12-25 degrees celsius from darkness to light, I have a passive 6 inch intake polinted right at the Osc. fan, I have good nutrients, general hydroponics micro, grow, bloom, diamond nectar, grozyme, and kool bloom for heavy budding near the end... I know about PH, I just dont have a hygrometer for measuring humidity, can I get away with that? for now?

I just posted that and realized it's a big block of letters, haha sry man, I will space it out next time

Oh and I live in British Columbia on the coast and the pros that I mention grow some of the most bountiful and potent marijuana in the world, therefore i listened to them! hehe let me know what you think of that half half idea or look into it for me... alot of people seems to disagree or differ in opinion

Lol I have the same temp/Rh sensors. Wal-mart 7.97

BCBuddy420 said:

Hey there, thanks for the info on the strain and lighting. I went and got a 400 watt MH for the 40 clones in 3 gal. pots (gives you an idea of the space needed) It was hanging 3 feet above spread over the younguns evenly...but I thought I may get away with bringing it down a foot, now it seems like the outer plants will not recieve alot of light as the width and length of all those pots, even tightly together, is about 6 x 7 feet. I like the topping method myself, I've used it plenty for outdoor. It's give you wide and bushy beauties... if you have the patience to veg them long enough to get the desired effect of the 4 cola canopy, than power to ya! I just wanna get my plants to about 16-18 inches and begin budding cycle, so from right now I'm expecting 4 more weeks of veg than 9 weeks flower. I've heard that OG is a heavy yielder from several sources being that it is an indica dominant strain ( you should see the dark, pretty wide leaves on my girls ) therefore supposedly it will produce a heavy, dense, smelly crop... not saying your wrong but what makes you thing the kush is a light but potent yielder? Just curious. When using your 4 cola method with a 4 plant per light arrangement, you will have 16 sweet colas per 1000 watt, let me know what you pull for ounces off of each light because I think it will be impressive and i'm gonna copy you down the road! lol i plan on utilizing many methods in the future, sooner than later. I just want to get the basics of keeping a WONDERFUL environment for the plants, then add to my growing knowledge. Things like light movers, co2 treatments(very interesting) foliar feeding and hydroponics as I am using soiless mix by HP and have never done any hydro, I know it's easy, I'm just not ready. What would you suggest for lighting in a veg room I will have soon for a crop that will flower under 4 1000 watt lights. About that.... You said I would use the HPS for flowering well that's true but I will also be using the two MH 1000's as well, i was told that reproducing the spectrum of nature is obtained by adding half/half MH, HPS lighting, the pros that grow around here do it and swear by it, so that's what I bought. Anyways tell me more about why you like some strains more than others for growing and what equipment you prefer to use, I will give you a quick list of what I have for a 4 light room: 2 mh, 2 hps, 8 inch vortex, oscillating fan, growzone pp2 temperature control with a sensor cord hanging at plant height, hooked up to the fan keeping my room at 12-25 degrees celsius from darkness to light, I have a passive 6 inch intake polinted right at the Osc. fan, I have good nutrients, general hydroponics micro, grow, bloom, diamond nectar, grozyme, and kool bloom for heavy budding near the end... I know about PH, I just dont have a hygrometer for measuring humidity, can I get away with that? for now?

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If you have one 400w MH lamp for vegging a 7'x7' space, that is probably pretty weak lighting. A 1000w lamp is good for a 4'x4' canopy, I think the 400w's are something like 2.5'-3'? You'd fare very well to add a second 400w lamp and transfer it into two batches.

If UncleBen's topping method works as the 5000000 pages of responses indicates, the 16 colas per 1000w lamp should be pretty intense. The 2.5 gallon pots are more than suitable to hold the strength, if not, I've already designed the system to properly post the plants upright, just havent actually built it yet. For this run, I plan to top some of the plants, but not others, to test the yield and visual results. The understanding is the colas will be close to the same each but a little lighter.

For the OG Kush (the "818" strain) you'll notice it once you get to week 2-3 of flowering how the bud structure is different from most other strains. I've noticed it yields less than others by a fair amount (20%?) but my experience with the strain is limited only to about 600-ish clones that I've flowered. I consider that a good amount, some may think its not many, or perhaps weak starting genetics, who knows. Regardless -- the smoke was fantastic and its an *easy* transfer if your supplying a shop. Nobody ever has enough of it!! =)

Had a problem with my NutraDip Tri-Meter that is now finally resolved. If you look closely at the photos of it in the first post you'll see the numbers are waaaaaay off base. Every "tick" the meter read the probes it updated with various numbers, ppm would be 0, 9800, 4082, etc... all in a matter of seconds, pH fluctuated wildly from 4-10, and the temperature also flickered. (Initially, this caused me to feed the plants for 2 days with pH 4.1 watter, the reason you see a little poor growth on the lower parts of a few plants). The manufacturer said this was a result of my digital ballasts causing RF interference with the Tri-Meter. They have no plan to fix or resolve this issue and they've been aware for 6 months of it. Ouch. They advised me that I should try a different circuit (I did), try a different power strip (I did), and even move the Tri-Meter (I did). Turns out none of this matters, it isnt an issue with the ballast being plugged in and operational, it is an issue of the RF interference from the power cable, which, when relocated, resolved the problem. I had to move it completely away from the reservoir and the tri-meter and tuck it behind the mylar. Its nice to have a working meter without having to unplug lights to look at pH.

I agree a 400 watt may be too weak for all of those clones (3 so i will be lighting them with 2 1000 watt MHs in about a week, how far from the tops of the plants should I keep them? I was gonna start with around 4 feet.

I dig your 4 cola method indoors but am afraid to use it as I dont want to veg for more than 4 weeks... how long you think vegging would take to get 14-18 inch 4 toppers? they have to bounce back from pruning so I'm not sure on the duration. Good job figuring out your problem with your tester, trial and error my friend haha.

I just posted my first thread today but they won't allow me to post pics it says * security tokens needed " wtf is that? Anyways...take 'er easy

Oh and only time will solve our slight disagreement on the OG yield LOL We will have to see in about 12-14 weeks. I have read countless info that it is a 60/40 indica dominant strain and that it yields a reasonably heavy, bountiful crop, but again, we will see. Im assuming there is many variations of this strain, I'm sure it differs from where I'm from and yourself. So what strain should I grow next for a FAT crop? I would like to know a good one. I was thinking northern lights or ak-47.

BCBuddy420 said:

I agree a 400 watt may be too weak for all of those clones (3 so i will be lighting them with 2 1000 watt MHs in about a week, how far from the tops of the plants should I keep them? I was gonna start with around 4 feet.

I dig your 4 cola method indoors but am afraid to use it as I dont want to veg for more than 4 weeks... how long you think vegging would take to get 14-18 inch 4 toppers? they have to bounce back from pruning so I'm not sure on the duration. Good job figuring out your problem with your tester, trial and error my friend haha.

I just posted my first thread today but they won't allow me to post pics it says * security tokens needed " wtf is that? Anyways...take 'er easy

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4 feet away is too much. By the time a week hits, 36" max and then slowly come down to 20" before blooming.

For the 4 cola method, I've never used it. I'm curious myself how it'll work out. The theory and data shows that the plant when topped properly when the 7th "true" internode arrives will redirect the hormones of the plant that makes it grow tall. Those hormones go to top two internodes on the plant resulting in 4 main colas. You could top those 4 main colas again and have 16 if you want, but those colas will be less in size and not an increase in yield. When topped properly, the plant should see zero growth or stunting or stressing issues.

Plant stress is caused by humans, not hormone redirection.

Since the plants dont miss a day of growth when topped, just veg as usual.

BCBuddy420 said:

Oh and only time will solve our slight disagreement on the OG yield LOL We will have to see in about 12-14 weeks. I have read countless info that it is a 60/40 indica dominant strain and that it yields a reasonably heavy, bountiful crop, but again, we will see. Im assuming there is many variations of this strain, I'm sure it differs from where I'm from and yourself. So what strain should I grow next for a FAT crop? I would like to know a good one. I was thinking northern lights or ak-47.

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Northern Lights is one of those seeds that I buy and think "Why this strain, again....." every time. It's kinda outgrowing itself. AK-47 too. Personally, I'd try out the Bubblicious if you havent already. It's just a nice little change of pace and great yielder.

First of all Im going to stop "hi-jacking" your thread, as I just read about that issue. Sry I dint't know I am just impeccably hungry for any info I can get as I am intense of growing very very good pot right from the start. I know those strains are kinda boring I've just never grown them before, all ive grown was random seeds given tome, outdoors. I will try some sugested strains but what i wanna do is order the stupid "10 seed pack* and veg to sex-show all that germ and pick the strongest fem. for clone to get a good specimen of the strain. I will try probably 10 strains in the next year or so I think from the pics I saw that you need to sheet in your room a bit more or go with 2 more 1000's and fill your space better and utilize the tight environment and light reflection of the walls... I have 4 1000 watts, 4000 watts lighting a space of 9.5 x 10.5 by 7.5 high(feet). I would like to know your nutes used and exact feeding shed/ per week of veg and flower, I have the local hydro shop giving me feeding charts so I'm curious.

BCBuddy420 said:

I would like to know your nutes used and exact feeding shed/ per week of veg and flower, I have the local hydro shop giving me feeding charts so I'm curious.

Click to expand...

http://www.humboldtnutrients.com/schedules/3Part-8-Mod.pdf

I use everything on the chart.

researchkitty said:

4 feet away is too much. By the time a week hits, 36" max and then slowly come down to 20" before blooming.

For the 4 cola method, I've never used it. I'm curious myself how it'll work out. The theory and data shows that the plant when topped properly when the 7th "true" internode arrives will redirect the hormones of the plant that makes it grow tall. Those hormones go to top two internodes on the plant resulting in 4 main colas. You could top those 4 main colas again and have 16 if you want, but those colas will be less in size and not an increase in yield. When topped properly, the plant should see zero growth or stunting or stressing issues.

Plant stress is caused by humans, not hormone redirection.

Since the plants dont miss a day of growth when topped, just veg as usual.





Northern Lights is one of those seeds that I buy and think "Why this strain, again....." every time. It's kinda outgrowing itself. AK-47 too. Personally, I'd try out the Bubblicious if you havent already. It's just a nice little change of pace and great yielder.

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Not a fan of the AK-47 kitty or just is it just played out?


I'm growing some from serious seeds and so far its great, unfortunately I haven't gotten far enough into flowering to really know if it's a keeper.

northeastern lights said:

Not a fan of the AK-47 kitty or just is it just played out?


I'm growing some from serious seeds and so far its great, unfortunately I haven't gotten far enough into flowering to really know if it's a keeper.

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Over time you just hear the same strain names like buzz words. How many times can you buy a Trainwreck flavored this or that now. Its just too much. I like the smoke, but I think that now is the time to grow newer genetics that have come to market as of late. Despite me picking fairly normal Nirvana seeds to start, that was just a "dial it in first" price saver. Next comes the good stuff.