Kitty's Commercial Grow Op-Bigger & Better Every Day!

researchkitty said:

Harvest #1 was 2 lbs 11 oz off of 4000w. (.311g/watt)

Harvest #2 was 2 lbs 13 oz off of 3000w. (.435g/watt)

With the lack of a full pound per 1000w light, we are purchasing CO2 this week. I'm thinking of a wall mounted unit from C.A.P. hooked up to BBQ Propane tanks. Hows that sound, and what's a good inexpensive but useful controller for them? So many units its hard to figure out how they all connect and work. I dont want to lug around CO2 Tanks.

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I bought a refurb'ed CAP PPM-3 from here: http://www.growsmarthydroponics.com/REFURBISHED-PPM-3-CO2-Monitor-Controller-_p_1668.html?gdftrk=gdfV22646_a_7c984_a_7c3714_a_7c1668

It still has the same 5 year warranty as a new one...

holy shit in full swing this would be beautifull keep it going and great setup!

I see what "they" are saying seeing that CO2 is bad for your root system. But from what you were saying is that youll be running either an LP or NG burner, and we all know hot air rises so IMO if your pumps are closer to the ground they should be pulling in cooler air with the lower CO2 content, and as flamdrags said the math just dont add up.

researchkitty said:

"they say" that the extra CO2 in the room will decrease the amount of oxygen that your air pumps can provide to the reservoir. I dont see how this is possible since the air we breath is 78.08% oxygen (780,800 ppm) versus our CO2 is around 0.039% and in a grow op its 0.078% (1200 ppm ish). Does that extra 0.04% CO2 really make your reservoir water less oxygenated?

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The air we breathe is around 21% Oxygen, 78% Nitrogen, and .033% CO2.





http://www.buzzle.com/articles/composition-of-air.html


Awesome setup, BTW!!!!!!!

doc111 said:

The air we breathe is around 21% Oxygen, 78% Nitrogen, and .033% CO2.

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that is what ms kitty gets when she tries to talk physics. I've edited the post to fix her math/oxygen error, thanks for that =) mrk



Good idea about the air pumps on the floor too!

researchkitty said:

that is what ms kitty gets when she tries to talk physics. I've edited the post to fix her math/oxygen error, thanks for that =) mrk



Good idea about the air pumps on the floor too!

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No problem. It looks like you just had Nitrogen mixed up with Oxygen as far as percentages. Did you recently have a timer malfunction? I just had one a few days ago myself. Mine was more human error though. I must have bumped the damn thing and hit the button that switches it from auto to manual. Luckily I discovered it about 2 hours after lights should've gone off. Needless to say I am checking them like an obsessive parent. I haven't noticed any issues yet so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Have you noticed any problems?

CO2 has a much higher molecular weight than other stuff in the air, sinks like a stone due to that carbon atom in there. Not trying to be a nay-sayer, but regardless of heat that CO2's gonna hit the floor before long. Elevating your air pumps would be better.

researchkitty said:

"they say" that the extra CO2 in the room will decrease the amount of oxygen that your air pumps can provide to the reservoir. I dont see how this is possible since the air we breath is 21% oxygen (210,000 ppm) versus our CO2 is around 0.039% and in a grow op its 0.078% (1200 ppm ish). Does that extra 0.04% CO2 really make your reservoir water less oxygenated?

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none of that math makes sense ... even after the edit

just read this before i posted...
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Will_carbon_monoxide_rise_or_fall_indoors

Short Bus said:

CO2 has a much higher molecular weight than other stuff in the air, sinks like a stone due to that carbon atom in there. Not trying to be a nay-sayer, but regardless of heat that CO2's gonna hit the floor before long. Elevating your air pumps would be better.

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We have a winner. All the CO2 will sit on the ground and cause the oxygen to float up to the top of the room. So, an air pump sitting on the floor or at the level of your plants will blow CO2 on the roots.

Go around with a meter, and figure out a place that has a high level of oxygen for your pumps. This should be above the canopy, because CO2 should reach the top of the plants. Above that it's wasted.

Air circulation will seriously mitigate this issue, but it will proportionately lower PPMs of CO2 at the levels of the plants, unless you compensate with more CO2 in the room as a whole.

If this doesn't make sense I can explain further.

NorthernLights#5 said:

just read this before i posted...
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Will_carbon_monoxide_rise_or_fall_indoors

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CO is not CO2. Carbon monoxide versus carbon dioxide.

I should have known co2 would sink because of the mushroom stuff. Why do I post here after bong rips. Argh. Anyway, OK so pumps on the ceiling rather than the floors for air. Thanks!!

Now let's see some more plant pictures

researchkitty said:

I should have known co2 would sink because of the mushroom stuff. Why do I post here after bong rips. Argh. Anyway, OK so pumps on the ceiling rather than the floors for air. Thanks!!

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Putting an air pump on the ceiling will bring the warmer air to your reservoirs. I understand you're doing it to get the air that's richer in O2, but warmer air going into your reservoir ok with you? (i.e. you must then have a way to chill it?)

My suggestion is to place an air pump wherever it is convenient for you and if you worry about the quality of air, in particular the richness of the O2, then try pumping more air in (with a larger pump). Even though you have to get a bigger pump, you can achieve the same goal and not have to stand on a latter every time you want to access your pump. You can either pump in low amounts of high quality air or high amounts of low quality....I hear 1watt/gallon is the standard, but I use 10watts/gallon and I have a virtual wave pool of bubbles in my reservoirs.

I think you're overkilling it with 10w/gallon. You can only oxygenate up to MAX 9ppm at 20C water temp anyway. The colder your water, the more O2 it can hold. Here is an interesting email exchange I just had with General Hydroponics tech rep on their air pump...

Me:

Hello GH,

I am looking at your Dual Diaphragm Air Pump to oxygenate my reservoirs. I have a flood and drain setup.

I see that the pump is rated at 20L/m. What is the maximum reservoir size that this pump can oxygenate efficiently and maintain the max oxygen level (9ppm at 20 deg C)?

Thank you!

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GH Response:

Hello,
I don't know about 9ppm @ 20 deg C, but 100 gallons would be the max I would go. Also, if you reservoir is too deep it will not work. If you use air stones, they will not produce bubbles at a depth of 3 feet or more. Personally, I wouldn't use air stones. They harbor bacteria and don't actually create that much more dissolved oxygen Just weigh down the open airlines so they are resting on the bottom of the res and let them bubble up. Four open air lines at the bottom of a 100gal res. is plenty.
Thank you,

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medicine21 said:

I think you're overkilling it with 10w/gallon. You can only oxygenate up to MAX 9ppm at 20C water temp anyway. The colder your water, the more O2 it can hold.
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10w/gallon is definitely overkill, even 5w/gallon is overkill.... Here's why I do it...based on science, there are two ways to guarantee that you're getting enough oxygen in your reservoir. 1) completely over do it on the air pump 2) Use a meter to test the oxygen in your reservoir. Me, well I like the flexibility of having a large air pump like that and its one less thing I have to constantly test...

Might be just as easy to put the pump in another room. If left in the same room when your using Co2 it can play havoc with your pH.

I think you're overkilling it with 10w/gallon. You can only oxygenate up to MAX 9ppm at 20C water temp anyway. ( not quite right but the right idea) The colder your water, the more O2 it can hold. ( up to the saturation point)

For oxygen, the approximate saturation level at 50° F. is 11.5 mg/l, at 70° F., 9 mg/l, and at 90° F., 7.5 mg/l.




The earth's basic air envelope is made up of about 78% Nitrogen, 21% Oxygen, and 0.03% Carbon Dioxide. There are also traces of several other elemental and molecular gasses but they will be ignored since they have no known effects within the pond environment. Concentrations of these gases within water is a whole different story. The concentrations are much smaller and are measured in milligrams per liter (mg/l) or somewhat equivalently, in parts per million (ppm). A typical pond at a temperature of 70° F. will have concentrations of about 13 mg/l Nitrogen, 9 mg/l Oxygen, and 35 mg/l Carbon Dioxide. As the air components dissolve into the water, a point is reached where no more can be added. This point is called saturation. The saturation points are different for each of the gases and are dependent upon several different factors but temperature is the most important. As the temperature increases, the water simply cannot hold as much of each type of gas. For oxygen, the approximate saturation level at 50° F. is 11.5 mg/l, at 70° F., 9 mg/l, and at 90° F., 7.5 mg/l. (See Figure 1) Impurities added to the water (i.e. salt) further decrease these saturation levels. Four pounds of salt per hundred gallons of water (5 ppt) will decrease the oxygen saturation levels about 1 mg/l.
Oxygen Saturation vs Temperature


Figure 1

Dipsomaniac420 said:

10w/gallon is definitely overkill, even 5w/gallon is overkill.... Here's why I do it...based on science, there are two ways to guarantee that you're getting enough oxygen in your reservoir. 1) completely over do it on the air pump (doing this can cause precipitation of your nutrients and mess up pH. Visible as a white powder on pails) 2) Use a meter to test the oxygen in your reservoir. Me, well I like the flexibility of having a large air pump like that and its one less thing I have to constantly test...

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A pail of water at 50 degrees would hold more DO in it than your bucket at 75 degrees and all the pump and air stones you want. Now stop fooling around.

woodsmaneh! said:

A pail of water at 50 degrees would hold more DO in it than your bucket at 75 degrees and all the pump and air stones you want. Now stop fooling around.

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Ok maybe I'm wrong...but I need to understand why.

I understand the DO and temperature relation and I get what you're saying.

However, lets say your container of size Z with a solution at Y degrees of temperature in it... and has X amount of O2 atoms in it. Then is it not possible that a container of size greater than Z with a solution at Y+1 degrees temperature have X+1 amount of O2 atoms in it?

If you understand that, then my point would be there has to be a line that is crossed...at some point even though you have a gallon of 50 degree water that's at 9ppm O2, if I bring in a tanker, like a semi tanker, full of water at 75F at a lower PPM, then I would assume that there are more atoms of O2 in that tanker full of water than in a pale at any temperature.

Oh and Woodsman, where can I find information about how adding such a big air pump (10w/gal) can precipitate nutrients? And what are these pails (pales?) that you speak of, got any pix of them with white powder? Not trying to be silly...just trying to get on the same page.