Leaf tips curling up and dying-pics

Hello everybody. I'm stumped. I have 8 white widow plants. They are about 7 weeks old from seed. They are planted in Fox Farms Happy Frog soil, pH is 6.8. I use r/o water pH'd to 6.3-6.8. They are indoors under 1000w metal halide on 18/6. I fed them 1/4 strength solution of Grow Big for the first time a couple of days ago. I have also been giving 1/2 strength cal-mag plus for the last 3 waterings. Temps are 78-80, relative humidity 40-45%. The brown spots started a couple of weeks ago and I thought I had a mag def so I started to give cal-mag. They started to look better I thought and now they are taking a turn for the worse. I suspect a pH fluctuation because my meter was giving me different readings on the same water but I calibrated it and I'm still having problems. Not all of them have issues and some are worse than others. Please help!

what u growing in?

just for the magic said:

what u growing in?

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Fox Farms Happy Frog soil.

Looks a lot like what happened to mine.I'm gonna say it's magnesium.They fold up, get little spots, die off. I used epsom salts for like two or three waterings, cleared it right up. I'd also say your ph is just ever so slightly high...my water was at 7.0 and I believe that's what caused the lockup.Try to nudge your ph down a few points.Some may disagree with me.This is from the growfaq:
What pH level or range should I aim for?

What pH level or range should I aim for?
Marijuana thrives in neutral to slightly acidic mediums. Soil and soilless mixes should aim for pH of 6. Hydro growers should go slightly lower which helps prevent pythium and other root rots-- 5.5 to 5.7 is ideal
Added on: Friday, March 2, 2007 Viewed: 4825 times


This is from the growfaq.
Magnesium - Mg-deficiency is pretty common since marijuana uses lots of it and many fertilizers don't have enough of it. Mg-deficiency is easily fixed with ¼ teaspoon/gallon of Epsom salts (first powdered and dissolved in some hot water) or foliar feed at ½ teaspoon/quart. When mixing up soil, use 2 teaspoon dolomite lime per gallon of soil for Mg. Mg can get locked-up by too much Ca, Cl or ammonium nitrogen. Don't overdo Mg or you'll lock up other nutrients.

Stoney McFried said:

Looks a lot like what happened to mine.I'm gonna say it's magnesium.They fold up, get little spots, die off. I used epsom salts for like two or three waterings, cleared it right up. I'd also say your ph is just ever so slightly high...my water was at 7.0 and I believe that's what caused the lockup.Try to nudge your ph down a few points.Some may disagree with me.This is from the growfaq:
What pH level or range should I aim for?

What pH level or range should I aim for?
Marijuana thrives in neutral to slightly acidic mediums. Soil and soilless mixes should aim for pH of 6. Hydro growers should go slightly lower which helps prevent pythium and other root rots-- 5.5 to 5.7 is ideal
Added on: Friday, March 2, 2007 Viewed: 4825 times


This is from the growfaq.
Magnesium - Mg-deficiency is pretty common since marijuana uses lots of it and many fertilizers don't have enough of it. Mg-deficiency is easily fixed with ¼ teaspoon/gallon of Epsom salts (first powdered and dissolved in some hot water) or foliar feed at ½ teaspoon/quart. When mixing up soil, use 2 teaspoon dolomite lime per gallon of soil for Mg. Mg can get locked-up by too much Ca, Cl or ammonium nitrogen. Don't overdo Mg or you'll lock up other nutrients.

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O.k. That confirms what I thought. I've never seen it this bad though. And why is it getting worse after adding cal-mag for the last 3 waterings? Should I give full strenght and see what happens? I'm afraid to do anything because it seems everything I do makes it worse. I don't usually check runoff to test pH but I just wanted to see what it was. It was 5.8. What could be causing this?

u can't use run off as a guide to ph. it is the root zone that matters. 1 part soil to 5 parts water blended in a blender then tested with a digital ph meter.( thats how coco coir is tested anyway

Hmm...5.8 is good.If it's getting worse still...I believe mine started looking worse before it got better, too.When in doubt, give your plant a flush.Take three times as much water as the size of the container.So a one gallon pot would need three gallons water, for example. Put it in your tub for easy cleanup and flush it.Then don't feed or fiddle with your plant for a couple of days.See how she does.If the problem is still there, then just try the epson salts. I know cal-mag is supposed to do the same thing,but too much calcium can cause magnesium deficiency.

doc111 said:

O.k. That confirms what I thought. I've never seen it this bad though. And why is it getting worse after adding cal-mag for the last 3 waterings? Should I give full strenght and see what happens? I'm afraid to do anything because it seems everything I do makes it worse. I don't usually check runoff to test pH but I just wanted to see what it was. It was 5.8. What could be causing this?

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just for the magic said:

u can't use run off as a guide to ph. it is the root zone that matters. 1 part soil to 5 parts water blended in a blender then tested with a digital ph meter.( thats how coco coir is tested anyway

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I know it's not an accurate way to test pH but I wanted to see what I got. My soil pH is testing around 6.8 and I was curious why my runoff is so acidic when I've only fed once.

Stoney McFried said:

Hmm...5.8 is good.If it's getting worse still...I believe mine started looking worse before it got better, too.When in doubt, give your plant a flush.Take three times as much water as the size of the container.So a one gallon pot would need three gallons water, for example. Put it in your tub for easy cleanup and flush it.Then don't feed or fiddle with your plant for a couple of days.See how she does.If the problem is still there, then just try the epson salts. I know cal-mag is supposed to do the same thing,but too much calcium can cause magnesium deficiency.

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I don't want to flush just yet because I get my r/o water from the grocery store (pain in the ass I know) because my tapwater is around 600 ppm and the pH is about 8.5. I think I will foliar feed with some epsom salts. Do you happen to know how much epsom salt per gallon for foliar feeding? And is a pH of 5.8 o.k. for soil?

1/4 teaspoon per gallon.Ph is fine for soil. I thought my tap water was bad...damn! Can you go to a friend's house and fill up on some city water, maybe? I just use the excuse that my water hurts my stomach(which it does) if your ppm weren't so bad, I'd just suggest adding some ph down or lemon juice to your water...but 600 ppm...are you sure?!

doc111 said:

I don't want to flush just yet because I get my r/o water from the grocery store (pain in the ass I know) because my tapwater is around 600 ppm and the pH is about 8.5. I think I will foliar feed with some epsom salts. Do you happen to know how much epsom salt per gallon for foliar feeding? And is a pH of 5.8 o.k. for soil?

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Stoney McFried said:

1/4 teaspoon per gallon.Ph is fine for soil. I thought my tap water was bad...damn! Can you go to a friend's house and fill up on some city water, maybe? I just use the excuse that my water hurts my stomach(which it does) if your ppm weren't so bad, I'd just suggest adding some ph down or lemon juice to your water...but 600 ppm...are you sure?!

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Unfortunately I'm sure. It is city water believe it or not. I have a tds meter and my r/o water is around 25 ppm and my tapwater fluctuates depending on the time of year but it's usually around 500-600ppm. I'm saving up and going to get an r/o filter after this harvest.

Good Lawd! How about rain?Any rain coming your way soon?

doc111 said:

Unfortunately I'm sure. It is city water believe it or not. I have a tds meter and my r/o water is around 25 ppm and my tapwater fluctuates depending on the time of year but it's usually around 500-600ppm. I'm saving up and going to get an r/o filter after this harvest.

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Stoney McFried said:

Good Lawd! How about rain?Any rain coming your way soon?

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I don't think so. This is the dry season around here.

Well, shucks.I really think your plant could benefit from a flush.Maybe a one time flush with your crappy water....I found this interesting link when I googled.Boiling your water may remove some ppm, thereby making it more suitable for flushing your plant.



http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/effectiveness-pre-boiling-water-remove-bicarbonate-134108/
This is an excerpt:

Quote:
Originally Posted by boredatwork
With this method, how do you know how much has precipitated out? Do you just assume 100% drop out?

Nope. From Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide:

Quote:
You can estimate the effect of boiling for decarbonation (removing bicarbonate) by the following formula: boiling will remove all but about 30 to 40 ppm of carbonate-bicarbonate; at the same time, it will remove 3 ppm of calcium for every 5 ppm of carbonate. For example, if your water has a total alkalinity of 150 ppm, boiling will remove 110 to 120 ppm of that amount. At the same time, the calcium content of your water will be lowered by 66 to 72 ppm.
So essentially, you're limited in how much bicarbonate you can remove by how much calcium is in the water. That's why some people add gyspum or calcium chloride before boiling. I didn't want to do that because I didn't want the leftover chloride and/or sulfate in the water, as those *don't* boil off. My water has 86 ppm calcium and 386 ppm of bicarbonate. I divide 86 by 3 getting 28.66. Multiply that by 5 and I end up with 143 ppm of bicarbonate, rounded down, removed from the water, so 243 ppm remaining.

I then take my adjusted water, with 0 calcium and 243 ppm of bicarbonate, and feed it into Palmer's water spreadsheet. I dilute it partially with distilled water, depending on the color of the beer, and add salts to achieve the desired residual alkalinity that I want for that color of beer.

Used this method on the first two beers in Croatia. One was diluted 50/50 while the other only had 15% distilled water. And both times the mash pH was right on track to what I wanted, around 5.4 when the wort was chilled to room temp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saccharomyces
I have heard this works... but for me it's cheaper to blend RO water than it is to burn the propane to precipitate out the bicarb.

OTOH, if I ever have an electric HLT... then that is different.

I both blend and do this. For me it's partially to experiment. I boil the water on the stove, though, rather than using my propane. Likely the distilled water is cheaper than the gas, but I'm curious about this method, so doing it this way for now...

BUT, I'm doing a brown this weekend and the RA when using those dark grains is enough that I will be using the base water as 100% without boiling...



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So, in conclusion,I'd say you could boil enough water to get 3 gallons,and if you wish, dilute it with some store bought water.Or just use all boiled(cooled) water.I flushed my plants with my water after I used my pur' filter.The ph was still alkaline, but the ppm was at around 180....and it seemed to help.They say in there the more calcium is in the water, the lower you can get the ppm...but the calcium won't boil off, and that in itself can cause plant trouble.

doc111 said:

I don't think so. This is the dry season around here.

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its a phosphorus deficiency look for purpling or redding of the stems or petioles, older leaves r effected first, turn dark green then become weak, leaves will have a dull blue or purple hue, lower leaves will yellow and die, oh yah your temps are to high as well

I disagree with the temps thing.Temps are fine.Marijuana grows in the desert,lol.It could be phosphorous, but I don't think so..the leaves are curling up, not down, and he's not in flower yet,so it's more likely to be mg.And it looks like mg because it's interveinal,and on the older leaves lower down.....

LT1RX7 Drifter said:

its a phosphorus deficiency look for purpling or redding of the stems or petioles, older leaves r effected first, turn dark green then become weak, leaves will have a dull blue or purple hue, lower leaves will yellow and die, oh yah your temps are to high as well

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Stoney McFried said:

I disagree with the temps thing.Temps are fine.Marijuana grows in the desert,lol.It could be phosphorous, but I don't think so..the leaves are curling up, not down, and he's not in flower yet,so it's more likely to be mg.And it looks like mg because it's interveinal,and on the older leaves lower down.....

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That's pretty interesting about the boiling. I would think boiling would make ppm higher since you are evaporating a little bit of the water. Unfortunately I don't think that is too practical for me either because I would have to boil 48 gallons in order to flush all of my plants. I agree with the mag but I think I am starting to see the beginning of a Phosphorus def. because I have purple petioles on a couple of them and they have that dark green bluish cast. This sucks! I've got multiple things going on which would lead me to think lockout. I just gave them a foliar spray with the epson salts and watered in a little as well. I guess I'll just wait it out and see what happens and maybe foliar feed with some Grow big here in a couple of days if they still look like crap....Thanks for the help Stoney and I will update this thread as things progress.

Lockout needs flushing.I know it's a pain,but if you've got lockout,you've got to get the plants flushed or it can cause root damage. If it is a phosphorus def,any fert with a high P number used for flowering will do the trick.But if the nutes are locked out, feeding them more will just put more stuff in the soil,exacerbating the problem. A flush will bring you back to "ground zero", and you can correct and build up from there.I just know that a flush would help, that's why I'm nagging you about it...I know r/o filters are expensive, and you have a lot of plants.I found this diy r/o filter, which may help in the short term.http://www.life123.com/home-garden/home-appliances/air-quality/make-your-own-Water-Filter.shtml

doc111 said:

That's pretty interesting about the boiling. I would think boiling would make ppm higher since you are evaporating a little bit of the water. Unfortunately I don't think that is too practical for me either because I would have to boil 48 gallons in order to flush all of my plants. I agree with the mag but I think I am starting to see the beginning of a Phosphorus def. because I have purple petioles on a couple of them and they have that dark green bluish cast. This sucks! I've got multiple things going on which would lead me to think lockout. I just gave them a foliar spray with the epson salts and watered in a little as well. I guess I'll just wait it out and see what happens and maybe foliar feed with some Grow big here in a couple of days if they still look like crap....Thanks for the help Stoney and I will update this thread as things progress.

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Stoney McFried said:

Lockout needs flushing.I know it's a pain,but if you've got lockout,you've got to get the plants flushed or it can cause root damage. If it is a phosphorus def,any fert with a high P number used for flowering will do the trick.But if the nutes are locked out, feeding them more will just put more stuff in the soil,exacerbating the problem. A flush will bring you back to "ground zero", and you can correct and build up from there.I just know that a flush would help, that's why I'm nagging you about it...I know r/o filters are expensive, and you have a lot of plants.I found this diy r/o filter, which may help in the short term.http://www.life123.com/home-garden/home-appliances/air-quality/make-your-own-Water-Filter.shtml

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Man I know. I was planning a transplant here in a couple of days and I gave them 1 drop per gallon of superthrive when I watered them this morning. They aren't looking any worse after me messing with them as much as I have today which is good I guess. I'm going to prepare to flush them though. I though that the humic acid and the mycorhyzae in the soil I use was supposed to prevent lockout. I really haven't given them a whole lot of nutes that would cause lockout either. I know....when in doubt, flush. I just hate doing it. Do you think tranpsplanting them in a couple of days, after they get over the stress that I have surely caused them today, would work instead of a flush?

I can't say for sure.Maybe if you got most of the old dirt off of the roots.Then they're gonna look worse at least for a little while as they get established in their new medium.How big are your pots?

doc111 said:

Man I know. I was planning a transplant here in a couple of days and I gave them 1 drop per gallon of superthrive when I watered them this morning. They aren't looking any worse after me messing with them as much as I have today which is good I guess. I'm going to prepare to flush them though. I though that the humic acid and the mycorhyzae in the soil I use was supposed to prevent lockout. I really haven't given them a whole lot of nutes that would cause lockout either. I know....when in doubt, flush. I just hate doing it. Do you think tranpsplanting them in a couple of days, after they get over the stress that I have surely caused them today, would work instead of a flush?

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