LED for micro cab...

zachyweezer88

zachyweezer88

Active Member
Hey guys. My cab is pretty small. It's roughly 30" tall, 23" wide, and 15" deep. I have three bagseed seedlings under four 23w CFL bulbs at the moment. The other day, out of curiosity, I put in just a couple of extra CFLs to see how much the temperature would rise. It went up about five degrees, from 81 to 86. This is unacceptable...

Anyway, I got to looking at a few LED "UFO" style lights on Ebay, and the models in the 138 - 150 watt range have caught my eye. I'm thinking one would probably allow me to grow from start to finish without having to worry nearly as much about temperature. Also, based upon the information given by the makers of these 138 watt models, it would be ideal for my sq. ft.

My only concern has to do with all of the conflicting info out there regarding plant distance from LED. I've read many articles broadly claiming that LEDs (basically grouping all makes, models, and wattages out there into one giant "LED" label) should be kept a minimum of 18" from one's canopy. This sounds like generalization to me. What about all of the PC boxes out there with 90 watt LED units?

What do y'all think? Would it be a good option for a stealth/micro grower with heat as a primary concern? Is my cab too short?
 
PicklesRus

PicklesRus

Well-Known Member
I can't remember the website, but there are these crazy dudes growing inside plastic bins. The lights are very close to plants and I'm pretty sure I found pictures with strip LEDs mounted right next to the plants.

Can't remember the name though ... Bingrowing?
 
A

az2000

Well-Known Member
zachyweezer88 said:
should be kept a minimum of 18" from one's canopy. This sounds like generalization to me.
Click to expand...
It depends on whether they're 3w or 5w diodes, if they're mounted in reflectors, if they have secondary lenses. If you could get a UFO with 3w diodes mounted on a white backboard, you can let the leaves touch the glass for extended periods of time. 2" distance is better. (I use the Blackstar 135w (85w actual). But, it's overpriced for a epi-whatever light. The problem is, everyone's going "bigger is better" and it's hard to find cheap fixtures with that configuration.).

I use Cree 9.5w lightbulbs and PAR38 floods (although the floods need 10" distance). The GE 10w BrightStik looks good to me with the plastic cap removed (but, that's a shock hazard. It's minimal, but you should use a GFI outlet.). They have their diodes facing forward, which makes them more efficient (by design) than the Crees (for directional light). I measured 22-25% more light mounted in a reflector. That's a lot of light for $3.50 at Home Depot. (There is 16w for sale at Sam's Club. It appears to be even more efficient. That would be a good replacement for the PAR38 flood, with less distance requirement.).

There is also SMD5630 strips. Some threads about that:

3 threads about strips:
https://www.rollitup.org/t/chronikoolz-stripped-lite-peep-show.567470/
https://www.rollitup.org/t/fun-with-smd-led-strips-5630-and-5050-in-preparation-for-the-bucket-of-light.635171/
https://www.rollitup.org/t/first-time-grower-experimenting-with-cheap-leds.610538/

Rigid, high-output strips
https://www.rollitup.org/t/high-output-led-strips.881321/

Luxeon XF-3535L
http://rollitup.org/t/micro-greenhouse-with-luxeon-xf-3535l-led-strips.875345/

Redberd LED strip-kit (4' x 44w)
http://www.redbirdled.com/products.php
https://www.rollitup.org/t/high-output-led-strips.881321/
 
Rahz

Rahz

Well-Known Member
I don't know of any high efficiency UFOs, but it depends on a couple factors. A lot of LEDs are rated higher than their actual output. So one possibility is that you end up with less output than your current setup and a similar amount of heat. If the actual draw is 150 watts then you could end up with more heat. Watts = heat. LED can improve the situation when replacing HID bulbs that emit a lot of infrared but CFL doesn't put off a lot of infrared so... the only way to decrease the amount of heat in your setup is to increase the airflow or decrease the wattage. If you use a more efficient lamp you can get more light while still decreasing the wattage.

That said, 86 is not too bad a temperature.

If you were inclined to look at other options, either build or buy a COB based LED lamp. They can run anywhere from 130 LPW to 180 LPW (or higher if you DIY). T5 tubes are around 90-100 LPW while CFL bulbs 60-75 LPW.

Using a COB based lamp you can double the amount of light while keeping the temp the same. UFOs on ebay are not in the same class.

zachyweezer88 said:
Hey guys. My cab is pretty small. It's roughly 30" tall, 23" wide, and 15" deep. I have three bagseed seedlings under four 23w CFL bulbs at the moment. The other day, out of curiosity, I put in just a couple of extra CFLs to see how much the temperature would rise. It went up about five degrees, from 81 to 86. This is unacceptable...

Anyway, I got to looking at a few LED "UFO" style lights on Ebay, and the models in the 138 - 150 watt range have caught my eye. I'm thinking one would probably allow me to grow from start to finish without having to worry nearly as much about temperature. Also, based upon the information given by the makers of these 138 watt models, it would be ideal for my sq. ft.

My only concern has to do with all of the conflicting info out there regarding plant distance from LED. I've read many articles broadly claiming that LEDs (basically grouping all makes, models, and wattages out there into one giant "LED" label) should be kept a minimum of 18" from one's canopy. This sounds like generalization to me. What about all of the PC boxes out there with 90 watt LED units?

What do y'all think? Would it be a good option for a stealth/micro grower with heat as a primary concern? Is my cab too short?
Click to expand...
 
zachyweezer88

zachyweezer88

Active Member
PicklesRus said:
I can't remember the website, but there are these crazy dudes growing inside plastic bins. The lights are very close to plants and I'm pretty sure I found pictures with strip LEDs mounted right next to the plants.

Can't remember the name though ... Bingrowing?
Click to expand...
Are you talking about space buckets? Yeah, I've seen some pretty elaborate lighting in those things.
 
zachyweezer88

zachyweezer88

Active Member
az2000 said:
It depends on whether they're 3w or 5w diodes, if they're mounted in reflectors, if they have secondary lenses. If you could get a UFO with 3w diodes mounted on a white backboard, you can let the leaves touch the glass for extended periods of time. 2" distance is better. (I use the Blackstar 135w (85w actual). But, it's overpriced for a epi-whatever light. The problem is, everyone's going "bigger is better" and it's hard to find cheap fixtures with that configuration.).

I use Cree 9.5w lightbulbs and PAR38 floods (although the floods need 10" distance). The GE 10w BrightStik looks good to me with the plastic cap removed (but, that's a shock hazard. It's minimal, but you should use a GFI outlet.). They have their diodes facing forward, which makes them more efficient (by design) than the Crees (for directional light). I measured 22-25% more light mounted in a reflector. That's a lot of light for $3.50 at Home Depot. (There is 16w for sale at Sam's Club. It appears to be even more efficient. That would be a good replacement for the PAR38 flood, with less distance requirement.).

There is also SMD5630 strips. Some threads about that:

3 threads about strips:
https://www.rollitup.org/t/chronikoolz-stripped-lite-peep-show.567470/
https://www.rollitup.org/t/fun-with-smd-led-strips-5630-and-5050-in-preparation-for-the-bucket-of-light.635171/
https://www.rollitup.org/t/first-time-grower-experimenting-with-cheap-leds.610538/

Rigid, high-output strips
https://www.rollitup.org/t/high-output-led-strips.881321/

Luxeon XF-3535L
http://rollitup.org/t/micro-greenhouse-with-luxeon-xf-3535l-led-strips.875345/

Redberd LED strip-kit (4' x 44w)
http://www.redbirdled.com/products.php
https://www.rollitup.org/t/high-output-led-strips.881321/
Click to expand...
Great information as always! So, when you said something with 3w diodes mounted against white backboard, did you mean something kind of like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/161584623575?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

Maybe the above is something to avoid, but the price is certainly tempting. It recommends you have at least an 11" distance from the plants. This again! Is this necessary? Even if the diodes are 3w like you said?
 
zachyweezer88

zachyweezer88

Active Member
Rahz said:
I don't know of any high efficiency UFOs, but it depends on a couple factors. A lot of LEDs are rated higher than their actual output. So one possibility is that you end up with less output than your current setup and a similar amount of heat. If the actual draw is 150 watts then you could end up with more heat. Watts = heat. LED can improve the situation when replacing HID bulbs that emit a lot of infrared but CFL doesn't put off a lot of infrared so... the only way to decrease the amount of heat in your setup is to increase the airflow or decrease the wattage. If you use a more efficient lamp you can get more light while still decreasing the wattage.

That said, 86 is not too bad a temperature.

If you were inclined to look at other options, either build or buy a COB based LED lamp. They can run anywhere from 130 LPW to 180 LPW (or higher if you DIY). T5 tubes are around 90-100 LPW while CFL bulbs 60-75 LPW.

Using a COB based lamp you can double the amount of light while keeping the temp the same. UFOs on ebay are not in the same class.
Click to expand...
Thanks, Rahz. Yeah, it seems to be the case most of the time that the actual draw is not the one advertised. I've noticed that many companies will give you both "wattage" and "true wattage" in their descriptions. I'm assuming there's some legitimate reason for this :?.

Anyway, you raise some good points. I'll make a point to do a little more research. I'd never even heard of a COB based LED lamp.
 
Rahz

Rahz

Well-Known Member
Well you've stepped into cob heaven. :)

With a 30" height, if you're interested in DIY it could be worth checking out the Redbird strips Az2000 mentioned and would be minimal work.

If you wanted to take a look at COBs, you could get out pretty cheap running something like 6 Vero 13s, total of 90 watts and 12,000 lumens. For contrast 4 23 watt CFLs give about 6,500 lumens for similar wattage. There's a bit of a learning curve using cobs but it's not that bad, just dealing with parts list and drilling/tapping some holes, using thermal paste, etc.

Here's a small lamp I built using Vero 18s. They would be more intense than the Vero 13s but I can get plants 3-4 inches from them before they start to bleach/burn.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/diy-70-watt-hundred-dollar-veg-lamp.870199/#post-11575045
 
A

az2000

Well-Known Member
zachyweezer88 said:
Great information as always! So, when you said something with 3w diodes mounted against white backboard, did you mean something kind of like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/161584623575?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

Maybe the above is something to avoid, but the price is certainly tempting. It recommends you have at least an 11" distance from the plants. This again! Is this necessary? Even if the diodes are 3w like you said?
Click to expand...
Yes, that's the only kind of inexpensive LED I would use in a short space. My Blackstar 135 looks like that. In flower (in a 4' tall tent) I don't worry about distance. If you followed the link I gave for the Cree lightbulbs you'd see it. It's probably 4" from the tallest bud. It could be closer without a problem. I don't think you can do that when the diode is in a reflector, or has secondary lenses (instead of flat glass, it looks like bubble surface, a lens in front of each LED). Or, if it's 5w diodes. I.e., the Mars II's are on white backboard, but I don't think they're as gentle as the 3w on white backboard.

I don't know if that UFO is equivalent in quality/spectrum as the Blackstar. The stated lumens (3850) is a little disturbing. The unit's actual power draw is probably 90w. That's 43 L/w. CFLs produce more lumens per watt.

But, you can't believe anything these inexpensive eBay/Amazon lights say. In this case, maybe it's off in your favor. (It's random chance like that with these lights.).

If it were me, I'd be using LED lightbulbs. You could chart some new territory with those GE BrightStiks. Remove the plastic cap, make a GFI "extension cord" for safety. Mount enough of them for 20-30w/sq ft (depending on the height of the plant). You only have 2.4 sq ft. That's only 5 to 7 10w bulbs. If you did a couple 16w bulbs from the top, you could do 4 10w from the sides.

I'd like to grow a plant with those and see how they work. I bet they're a huge improvement over CFL. (About half the watts necessary, fewer bulbs to hang. They're already largely directional. CFL users rarely use reflectors. So, that would be like an immediate improvement in efficiency.). You could be the guy who tests them out.
 
Last edited:
8

8/10

Well-Known Member
Hello, I run leds (cobs) in micro and this is how I do it:

cabinet size:
17.5" Deep x 29" Wide x 24.5" Tall

Lights:
2 x ledengin 10w deep red
3 x ledengin 10w red
2 x ledengin 10w blue
12 x cxa1304 3000k (cob)

Lamp is a DIY, leds and small fans mounted on a 1/3 inch thick aluminum plate. The ledengin leds were from a previous project, so if I didn't already have them, I'd go all cxa1304 70-80% 3000k the rest 4000k - 5000k. Real watt usage is 149 w and last grow I got 158 grams.
 

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2cent

2cent

Well-Known Member
That is fekin Amazon can u take pics of ur cab too? Totally inspired 158gs man
Rahz is prob one of the most advanced led intelligence your going to meet
If there is one thing I have learnt is all led company's lie or have poor heat management cheap parts watch some YouTube on growmau5 and real styles
Even if there OK the led bin grade is normally a low one its like eating a cake in the bakery or eating a squashed one u sat on last night

Go to the bakery man and make one you will be surprised how easy it is when u get used to all the numbers on them
U can make better than u can buy gl
 
zachyweezer88

zachyweezer88

Active Member
Rahz said:
Well you've stepped into cob heaven. :)

With a 30" height, if you're interested in DIY it could be worth checking out the Redbird strips Az2000 mentioned and would be minimal work.

If you wanted to take a look at COBs, you could get out pretty cheap running something like 6 Vero 13s, total of 90 watts and 12,000 lumens. For contrast 4 23 watt CFLs give about 6,500 lumens for similar wattage. There's a bit of a learning curve using cobs but it's not that bad, just dealing with parts list and drilling/tapping some holes, using thermal paste, etc.

Here's a small lamp I built using Vero 18s. They would be more intense than the Vero 13s but I can get plants 3-4 inches from them before they start to bleach/burn.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/diy-70-watt-hundred-dollar-veg-lamp.870199/#post-11575045
Click to expand...
Yep. I'll definitely be researching this more. Your lamp looks amazing, btw. I don't know if the COB route is one that I'll take with this particular cab, but it seems to be a more than viable solution to micro cab heat issues. I'd want to do quite a bit of research before buying materials and such. I'm really just looking for a quick replacement for my somewhat ghetto rig. :lol:Thanks for all the input. This place is a wealth of info.
 
zachyweezer88

zachyweezer88

Active Member
az2000 said:
Yes, that's the only kind of inexpensive LED I would use in a short space. My Blackstar 135 looks like that. In flower (in a 4' tall tent) I don't worry about distance. If you followed the link I gave for the Cree lightbulbs you'd see it. It's probably 4" from the tallest bud. It could be closer without a problem. I don't think you can do that when the diode is in a reflector, or has secondary lenses (instead of flat glass, it looks like bubble surface, a lens in front of each LED). Or, if it's 5w diodes. I.e., the Mars II's are on white backboard, but I don't think they're as gentle as the 3w on white backboard.

I don't know if that UFO is equivalent in quality/spectrum as the Blackstar. The stated lumens (3850) is a little disturbing. The unit's actual power draw is probably 90w. That's 43 L/w. CFLs produce more lumens per watt.

But, you can't believe anything these inexpensive eBay/Amazon lights say. In this case, maybe it's off in your favor. (It's random chance like that with these lights.).

If it were me, I'd be using LED lightbulbs. You could chart some new territory with those GE BrightStiks. Remove the plastic cap, make a GFI "extension cord" for safety. Mount enough of them for 20-30w/sq ft (depending on the height of the plant). You only have 2.4 sq ft. That's only 5 to 7 10w bulbs. If you did a couple 16w bulbs from the top, you could do 4 10w from the sides.

I'd like to grow a plant with those and see how they work. I bet they're a huge improvement over CFL. (About half the watts necessary, fewer bulbs to hang. They're already largely directional. CFL users rarely use reflectors. So, that would be like an immediate improvement in efficiency.). You could be the guy who tests them out.
Click to expand...
Yes, I meant to comment on the lumens last night. Do you think they made a misprint? It seems that could easily be achieved with about five or so of those GE BrightStiks you mentioned. Using those might just be the way to go. One problem, though. I don't have a GFI outlet in my room. I'm guessing they're pretty easy to install?

Anyway, are lumens the same across the board? For instance, are the 3850 lumens put out by an LED lamp equivalent to 3850 CFL lumens?
 
A

az2000

Well-Known Member
zachyweezer88 said:
One problem, though. I don't have a GFI outlet in my room. I'm guessing they're pretty easy to install?
Click to expand...
You can make a little extension cord with a GFI outlet on the end of it. Chop off the end of an extension cord, buy a junction box at Home Depot (and a strain relief for the wire which will enter it through a "knockout"). Buy the faceplate.

Maybe it's easier to replace the outlet in the wall. But, I'm just saying you could have a more dedicated and portable electrical outlet for the lights only.

zachyweezer88 said:
Anyway, are lumens the same across the board? For instance, are the 3850 lumens put out by an LED lamp equivalent to 3850 CFL lumens?
Click to expand...
Lumens is a measure of what the human eye sees. So, comparing white lights like the Cree LED lightbulb and the GE BrightStik, it's safe to compare lumens. But, the blurple light of the inexpensive LED fixtures (like that UFO) might have more PAR light in the red blue that wouldn't be measured (as strongly) as lumens.

Maybe that's why the advertisement's lumens sounds low. (But, you can't trust anything they say. It's like going to the Dollar store and being picky about things.).

I'd like to see you do the BrightStiks just to test it out for everyone else. I don't know when I'll be able to. They seem very bright compared to the Cree A19 (which grows well). The 16w (100w equiv) is rated at around 95 L/w. That's without the cap removed. When you factor that into it, and how it's already mostly directional (I assume it's flush mounted like the 10w), that's gotta be better than the Cree A19. Just $8 for one of those. $3.50 for the 10w.

You could officially declare CFLs dead with one grow. :)
 
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