LED Without LEDs -My First T5 Grow

Redoctober

Redoctober

Well-Known Member
Started a new batch today this will be the first time I'll be cloning from the start with the par bulbs. I'll compare average time of root onset compared to Mh light. My first flowering with these lights didn't turn out great as far as yield but I just sampled a small nug tonight and MY GOD is it potent! I'll be doing a solo cup Uc grow and will continue to flower using this light hoping for a greater yield.
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Sorry to hear about the yield UnderCurrent. That's a bit disappointing considering how much you put into it (24 bulbs). Would you attribute it solely to the lights, or were there any other factors involved? Was it lack of light penetration that caused it? I forget how many plants you were doing. Did you change anything else from your HPS grows to this one besides the lights, and were you using an equivalent wattage of T5 that you would have been using with HPS?

Happy to hear about the quality however! So far we have two similar reviews of the T5 flowering performance: lower yield but increased quality. Although hyroot had an asterisk next to his grow because of a few non-T5 related issues. Anecdotally I believe BendMC on another forum said he had relatively comparable HPS and T5 yields, and he wasn't even using PAR bulbs, just the Quantum veg 6000 and bloom 3000.

I still remain optimistic that it is possible to achieve comparable yields to HPS, but maybe I'm just talking myself into it because I'm financially and emotionally invested in T5 now lol!
 
AltarNation

AltarNation

Well-Known Member
hyroot said:
Sounds like you were over feeding them. They can lock up from that. I could tell more from a pic. Too much phos will cause browning leaves. If you see the tips turning a reddish brown then cut back on nutes. You should track them seperatley. They each need different regiments. If you go by the directions on the bottle, full strength is actually 20% less than what it says because you are using differnt things in conjuction with each other. When I started brewing teas. It took me almost a month to figure out proper regiments for each of my strains. Also they can all be done at different times. My rule of thumb is when they look done to your own eyes (no scope) give them another week. Or use a scope. I like chopping when at least half the trichomes are amber. If you dont have access toba scope. Experiment. Chop at different times and see what you like more. Your next batch will usually be better thatn the one before. Even experienced growers have a learning curve when a new strain is introduced into the garden.. Hope my ramblings help in some way.
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Appreciate your feedback... could have been overfeeding I guess... I'd track separately but it seems kind of unreasonable to track seven plants simultaneously... got any tips on how to go about that? Do you keep written records? Switch up dosages regularly? I'm a stoner... it's hard to keep track of shit like that, for me, hahaha. I don't really know proper methods for testing their needs, because I don't recognize the symptoms easily either, being a newbie.

I do have a 30x magnifier and I would say trichomes were approaching 50% amber on most of them. Some of them may not have been as done. In the future I plan to work with less genetic variation so it will be easier to keep track of what I'm doing. My next batch (in veg right now) is three plants in bigger containers (5 gal bags) so at least there is less variation there. They are clones from the bag seed plants, so it's still sort of a crapshoot genetically but at least there's only 3 to keep track of instead of 7, I think that will make it a lot easier on me. I'm also planning to veg them longer and get bigger bushes going to take up the difference in space, so maybe that will give me more time to get to know them in this sense and adjust to their needs.

I will start with lower doses this time... it's hard to tell which end of the map I'm on a lot of the time though, as far as feedback from the plants is concerned... one person says it's nute burn, another tells me cal/mag deficiency... and I honestly don't know how to tell the difference that well. The leaves yellow, and then the tips go dark brown, and then the whole leaf goes brown. Is that nute burn?

Honestly I can't wait to use up all the foxfarm nutrients and switch to something organic so I don't have to deal with the salts and flushing the salts every few weeks...

I am SURE some of my plants were a little early, but I'm also fairly sure some of them were due. Some of them were not as dense feeling, and those were probably a bit early. The others had receded hairs, rock hard colas, and a good ratio of amber... But with these lights, I feel like I need to keep my canopy so even, so I felt the need to chop all of these to allow for maintaining an even canopy on the lower buds, which I left in tact... maybe a silly reason. But it's also the holiday season and I wanted to make sure things were taken care of in time to not be affected by travel and such... probably could have waited til after, but those brown leafs were kinda freaking me out.

I'm not too worried about it... for a first time, I feel like I did really well. Always looking to improve though, so next grow will hopefully be more dialed in and perhaps I'll have more of a sense of what's going on... like I said, any tips for how to monitor/track/vary feeding to learn the needs of the plants individually, I'm all ears on that stuff.
 
L

Lucius Vorenus

Well-Known Member
Redoctober said:
Sorry to hear about the yield UnderCurrent. That's a bit disappointing considering how much you put into it (24 bulbs). Would you attribute it solely to the lights, or were there any other factors involved? Was it lack of light penetration that caused it? I forget how many plants you were doing. Did you change anything else from your HPS grows to this one besides the lights, and were you using an equivalent wattage of T5 that you would have been using with HPS?

Happy to hear about the quality however! So far we have two similar reviews of the T5 flowering performance: lower yield but increased quality. Although hyroot had an asterisk next to his grow because of a few non-T5 related issues. Anecdotally I believe BendMC on another forum said he had relatively comparable HPS and T5 yields, and he wasn't even using PAR bulbs, just the Quantum veg 6000 and bloom 3000.

I still remain optimistic that it is possible to achieve comparable yields to HPS, but maybe I'm just talking myself into it because I'm financially and emotionally invested in T5 now lol!
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This could very well be the case and we could all find out next month that Pr0Fesseur works for Quantum and the joke is on all of us. LOL
 
A

asdmo

Active Member
This is a really interesting thread, glad I found this cause I was actually going to buy brand new 6500k lights for my t5. Im actually thinking of using the PAR t5's to veg and (2) 600w Hps to flower cause im kinda iffy about the yield that a t5 would put out during flower. Correct me if im wrong, the recommended veg setup right now for an 8 bulb would be: 8 BULB - VEG = FIJI / RED / BLUE1 / 75.25 /FIJI / BLUE2 / RED / FIJI.

I have a Pioneer VIII 8Bulb setup, actually thinking of buying a different 8 bulb cause currently it doesnt fit into my 2x4 tent, its like 2" to wide... should I get a new tent or should i get a new t5?? thanks for the help folks! Happy growing!
 
C

Calrt

Member
Here are some pics from day 10 of flower. The t5 tent I think looks a little happier but you be the judge!IMAG0587.jpgT5 up closeIMAG0588.jpgT5 up close again.IMAG0589.jpg600w HPS tentIMAG0590.jpgUp closeIMAG0591.jpgIMAG0592.jpg



Strain: Lemon Kush
Lights: 600w air cooled HPS eye Hortalux with a digital ballast.
T5 Bad Boy 8 bulb with 3 Red Suns 2 Coral Waves, 2 Fijis, 1 454
Temps with the lights on 72-75 degrees Off around 62-65
RH 23-40
 
hyroot

hyroot

Well-Known Member
AltarNation said:
Appreciate your feedback... could have been overfeeding I guess... I'd track separately but it seems kind of unreasonable to track seven plants simultaneously... got any tips on how to go about that? Do you keep written records? Switch up dosages regularly? I'm a stoner... it's hard to keep track of shit like that, for me, hahaha. I don't really know proper methods for testing their needs, because I don't recognize the symptoms easily either, being a newbie.

I do have a 30x magnifier and I would say trichomes were approaching 50% amber on most of them. Some of them may not have been as done. In the future I plan to work with less genetic variation so it will be easier to keep track of what I'm doing. My next batch (in veg right now) is three plants in bigger containers (5 gal bags) so at least there is less variation there. They are clones from the bag seed plants, so it's still sort of a crapshoot genetically but at least there's only 3 to keep track of instead of 7, I think that will make it a lot easier on me. I'm also planning to veg them longer and get bigger bushes going to take up the difference in space, so maybe that will give me more time to get to know them in this sense and adjust to their needs.

I will start with lower doses this time... it's hard to tell which end of the map I'm on a lot of the time though, as far as feedback from the plants is concerned... one person says it's nute burn, another tells me cal/mag deficiency... and I honestly don't know how to tell the difference that well. The leaves yellow, and then the tips go dark brown, and then the whole leaf goes brown. Is that nute burn?

Honestly I can't wait to use up all the foxfarm nutrients and switch to something organic so I don't have to deal with the salts and flushing the salts every few weeks...

I am SURE some of my plants were a little early, but I'm also fairly sure some of them were due. Some of them were not as dense feeling, and those were probably a bit early. The others had receded hairs, rock hard colas, and a good ratio of amber... But with these lights, I feel like I need to keep my canopy so even, so I felt the need to chop all of these to allow for maintaining an even canopy on the lower buds, which I left in tact... maybe a silly reason. But it's also the holiday season and I wanted to make sure things were taken care of in time to not be affected by travel and such... probably could have waited til after, but those brown leafs were kinda freaking me out.

I'm not too worried about it... for a first time, I feel like I did really well. Always looking to improve though, so next grow will hopefully be more dialed in and perhaps I'll have more of a sense of what's going on... like I said, any tips for how to monitor/track/vary feeding to learn the needs of the plants individually, I'm all ears on that stuff.
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first off. yeah write everything you feed them down and keep track. write how much of each nute you used and see if its enough or too much and then change accordingly. eventually you will have it down and won't need to write down anything.

tips and edges yellow - magnesium deficiency.

Blotchy yellowing - nitrogen and/or phosphorus deficiency

reddish brown tips and edges / spread to rest of leaf - over feeding phosphorus- causes plant to get nutrient lock and will stop growing. - flush if nute lock happens happens.

curling leaves and/ or whole stalk is purple - ph is off or nute lock( if no new growth occurs) or over watering.

red transparent circles - calcium deficiency.

that covers most common ones
 
hyroot

hyroot

Well-Known Member
final tally on yield. half pure indicas and half hybrid sativa dominant. Per plant its disappointing. But for area I guess its pretty good. 2.5 x 4 - 10 sqft total = 319 g yield

also like i said before many factors why i think yield was so small.
 
hyroot

hyroot

Well-Known Member
The major nutrient uptake processes are:

1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.

2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.

Lecture Notes:, Transport and Nutrition in Plants, Bio 102

http://www.hort.wisc.edu/cran/Publications/2001 Proceedings/min_nutr.pdf

The claim only ‘chemical’ ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.

3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.

Elisabeth Holland

Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:

Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins.

Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.

Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is neeeded for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.

Sidwell Friends School » News and Events

You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.

Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:

Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.

The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.

Sirius Systems, Inc.

Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.

1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.

2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.

HORT 201 & 202 Home Page

Storage organelles:

Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.

http://jeb.biologists.org.pdf

Translocation:

Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.

Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.

You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.

Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.

For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.

Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.

University of Missouri Extension Home
 
organicbynature

organicbynature

Active Member
hyroot said:
final tally on yield. half pure indicas and half hybrid sativa dominant. Per plant its disappointing. But for area I guess its pretty good. 2.5 x 4 - 10 sqft total = 319 g yield

also like i said before many factors why i think yield was so small.
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That was with an 8-bulb? Cause that's not a bad yield.

319 / 430 = .74 g/w isn't too shabby for a first go with these if you ask me. Especially if the quality is there.

And as you say, it's not bad by area either. If I stuck two 8-bulbs in a 5x5 tent and pulled off 1.4+ pounds of frosty buds I don't think I'd be disappointed.
 
pr0fesseur

pr0fesseur

Well-Known Member
organicbynature said:
That was with an 8-bulb? Cause that's not a bad yield.

319 / 430 = .74 g/w isn't too shabby for a first go with these if you ask me. Especially if the quality is there.

And as you say, it's not bad by area either. If I stuck two 8-bulbs in a 5x5 tent and pulled off 1.4+ pounds of frosty buds I don't think I'd be disappointed.
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.74 is a great first time number... i would be proud of that .. once dialed in im sure you can hit 1.0
 
O

overTHEman

Active Member
Whenever there is a change in a grow room (nutrients, medium, strain, LIGHTS, etc.), yield changes. Good growing hyroot, rep.

Carlrt, great bulb choice! Pretty plants in your PAR tent.



Week 4





Note, she's headed toward lockout. Struggling with the phosphorus problem, so she'll be going on a diet.


Happy growing.
 
A

asdmo

Active Member
Hey guys im stopping by the local aquarium shop to buy some lights tomorrow. Just wondering if the recommended 8 bulb Veg setup is still:

  • 8 BULB - VEG = FIJI / RED / BLUE1 / 75.25 /FIJI / BLUE2 / RED / FIJI​


    ​
Oh also, I have a Sunleaves Pioneer VIII 8Bulb T5 fixture, am i supposed to get the VHO bulbs? Cause im not sure if my fixture supports VHO, someone please clear this up for me?
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Anybody have a good alternative to UVL Red Suns? Just had my 3rd one go bad. I had taken it out for a few weeks, but when I put it back nada. I have an email in to AS, but this is getting ridiculous.

I am drying now, maybe another week. Not sure what to expect due to burning them up from the inside; probably OD them with too much DM Potash +
 
UnderCurrentDWC

UnderCurrentDWC

Active Member
asdmo said:
Hey guys im stopping by the local aquarium shop to buy some lights tomorrow. Just wondering if the recommended 8 bulb Veg setup is still:

  • 8 BULB - VEG = FIJI / RED / BLUE1 / 75.25 /FIJI / BLUE2 / RED / FIJI​


    ​
Oh also, I have a Sunleaves Pioneer VIII 8Bulb T5 fixture, am i supposed to get the VHO bulbs? Cause im not sure if my fixture supports VHO, someone please clear this up for me?
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More than likely you won't be able to find those bulbs @ your local aquarium shop.
Yes those are the bulbs you want and that order looks fine.
You'll be fine with these bulbs being vho and your T5 being Ho.

 
A

asdmo

Active Member
UnderCurrentDWC said:
More than likely you won't be able to find those bulbs @ your local aquarium shop.
Yes those are the bulbs you want and that order looks fine.
You'll be fine with these bulbs being vho and your T5 being Ho.
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Thanks for your reply UC, I actually found a store that had every bulb except the Red Sun, and 454. I think I might have to order online from a different supplier, any suggestions?

Oh also, should I be getting the bulbs with the internal reflectors? Thanks for your help much appreciated!
 
UnderCurrentDWC

UnderCurrentDWC

Active Member
asdmo said:
Thanks for your reply UC, I actually found a store that had every bulb except the Red Sun, and 454. I think I might have to order online from a different supplier, any suggestions?

Oh also, should I be getting the bulbs with the internal reflectors? Thanks for your help much appreciated!
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Nice!... was it a national store or just a local one?
Aquariumspecialty.com
Internal reflectors are recommended but if there out of stock I'd get the regulars.

 
organicbynature

organicbynature

Active Member
I question the value of the internal reflectors a little. I guess I'm ambivalent about them.

My T5 fixtures have individual reflectors built in with 95% reflectivity. I imagine with the internal bulb reflectors you get a bit more penetration, but it also sends the light from that bulb out at different angles from the bulbs without internal reflectors. Particularly in the case of actinics, red suns, etc, where you're working with a narrow spectrum, I would think there is benefit to having that light blend with your other bulbs' light better, rather then getting extra penetration from them. On the other hand, I hate to talk down anything that gives T5s more penetration.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

My hunch is they don't make a big difference either way and it's probably not worth stressing about it one way or the other.
 
C

Calrt

Member
organicbynature said:
I question the value of the internal reflectors a little. I guess I'm ambivalent about them.

My T5 fixtures have individual reflectors built in with 95% reflectivity. I imagine with the internal bulb reflectors you get a bit more penetration, but it also sends the light from that bulb out at different angles from the bulbs without internal reflectors. Particularly in the case of actinics, red suns, etc, where you're working with a narrow spectrum, I would think there is benefit to having that light blend with your other bulbs' light better, rather then getting extra penetration from them. On the other hand, I hate to talk down anything that gives T5s more penetration.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

My hunch is they don't make a big difference either way and it's probably not worth stressing about it one way or the other.
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Could not have put it better myself!
 
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