Looking for input on possible lockout vs an actual deficiency

N

NewGrower2011

Well-Known Member
Experiencing an issue about 3-4 weeks into flowering, after eyeballing threads and several of the diagnostic images I'm just not convinced what I'm dealing with and though I'd tap into the collective knowledge here.
  • Soil/Coco mix, based on NFTG #4 soil with EWC and Bu's compost.
  • Lightly amended the mix at time of preparing the soil with various inputs including dolo lime, gypsum, OSF, Neem, Alfalfa, Sea Bird guano, Crab Shell, Langbeinite, Kelp, Azomite, Cotton Seed meal, granular humic acid
  • During veg they were fed mainly NFTG supplements and Alaska Fish 5-1-1 for the main N source; Did use CalMag (Calimagic) and Fulvic.
  • Of the NFTF supplements, 2 were calcium sources which I'm wondering is complicit now (i.e. a possible Ca build up)
  • RO water was used, other beneficial and preventative additives were used during the grow - i.e. SLF-100, Photo+, SouthernAg Garden Friendly Fungicide
  • Also periodic use of Big-6 for micros and Mykos/Azos throughout the grow.
  • As I was doing a little bit of a hybrid between organics (NFTG) and salts (Botanicare Kind) to use up some old stuff there were some salt-based light feeds.
Veg went smooth and no real issues or defs noticed; It was a very long veg though and I did something different this time and cleared out the lower junk that wouldn't be worth allowing to go into flower. They were under about 450w in a 2x4 space throughout and never showed any signs of burning.

The first thing I noticed going wrong was 1 out of 6 plants had a sudden downward tip and cupping (downward as well) which I thought was a N tox sign so I started to back off of any N inputs and did some RO water only flushing after giving them a drink with Hygrozyme and then SLF-100 (separate feeds) to help try to clear up and release anything that would be a build-up. What I didn't see at this point was any super dark green or shiny leaves so I wasn't convinced it was truly N tox going on. But the cupping and downward tips seemed to hint at it.

After that attempt, things were looking to clear up a little bit (not fully) so I started to return to a flowering feed schedule. I then noticed what I thought was the start of a K def as I had been much heavier on the N & P inputs (Alaska Fish Fertilizer and Herculean Harvest) up to that point and my only real K input was coming from the silica I was using (DynaGro). To help boost the K inputs I had used a little of the Bloom Khaos (NFTG) as a drench and then top-dressed with some Kelp (1tb to a 5g container) for some K to be released over time.

Now I'm suspecting I have a potential lockout more than a def; But what's throwing me off is the first sign was the veins of the leaves browning before actual spots appearing (bottom right picture) so when I looked at Ca and K defs their tell-tale signs were more about spotting or tip burning it seems. And in the case of toxicity those didn't jump out to me as being the case either but looking at Muelders chart I'm now wondering if I have lockouts from a high Ca level. It appears to be affecting the top of the plant and nothing down lower (which was also stripped when flipping into flower so there's not a lot down there).

So deficiency/toxicity gurus - what's your thoughts? The soil temps should be hovering around the low-to-mid 70's and I'm going to re-check the pH again but right now I'm very suspicious of a lockout instead of a deficiency. I'd also venture to guess the Magnesium could be low'ish but I was using calmag during veg/early flower since I was using the RO water and knew this strain/pheno was Ca/Mg hungry in the past.

leaf1.jpg leaf4.jpg leaf5.jpg

leavesShot1.jpg leaf8.jpg leaf7.jpg

Original soil mix tested before amendments were added (just NFTG/Bu's Compost/EWC):

NewBaselineSoilMix-Public.PNG
This soil had sat in a container (before use/amending it) for almost 2 full years so it should have been very well 'cooked' in that regard. After the amendments were added it did have a week or two otherwise and the extended veg time.

For the environmental factors, I'm hovering in the mid-to-high 70's and humidity around 40's and potentially lacking in air flow/circulation perhaps as I don't have any additional fans just the passive air intake and the exhaust/filter which does result in minor leaf movement. I have the controller set to allow things to get up to 82f but I'm not hitting those temps even with the LEDs (2x 400w - CLW SolarSystem 550) so my leaf temps aren't that far off from room temp. VPD is definitely not in target range.

Thanks for taking the time to read the details & any input!
 
W

waterproof808

Well-Known Member
kinda confused why you added even more soil amendments when the initial soil test showed you had exceeded every macronutrient by a lot except for nitrogen?
IMO you are using way too many different products....living soil + salts + 2 different enzymes + a wide variety of dry amendments + liquid fish fertilizer + cal-mag....its just a cocktail of products and a ton of variables you are adding to your equation.

I think it might be best if you just had another soil test done and going from there. You are going to get a whole spectrum of different responses from the forum and they will mostly just be guesses because no one will be able to tell which of 3 dozen products might be causing you issues.
 
N

NewGrower2011

Well-Known Member
I get that there's a lot of variables going on for sure, but each was done in low amounts and not all at once either. Also with the very long veg time I figured they had ate through a good bit of the macros.

I figured a test is the only real answer with any accuracy but I thought the clues from the images may at least steer the conversation as those places like Soil Saavy don't exactly turn those tests around very fast especially with the time spent in the mail & then waiting. Thanks for taking the time to read though!

And yeah, I know there's a lot of folks that comment/reply on threads who aren't necessarily the most qualified or experienced so that's why I look for patterns/trends in the responses rather than just taking one persons' feedback. ;-)
 
PadawanWarrior

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
NewGrower2011 said:
Experiencing an issue about 3-4 weeks into flowering, after eyeballing threads and several of the diagnostic images I'm just not convinced what I'm dealing with and though I'd tap into the collective knowledge here.
  • Soil/Coco mix, based on NFTG #4 soil with EWC and Bu's compost.
  • Lightly amended the mix at time of preparing the soil with various inputs including dolo lime, gypsum, OSF, Neem, Alfalfa, Sea Bird guano, Crab Shell, Langbeinite, Kelp, Azomite, Cotton Seed meal, granular humic acid
  • During veg they were fed mainly NFTG supplements and Alaska Fish 5-1-1 for the main N source; Did use CalMag (Calimagic) and Fulvic.
  • Of the NFTF supplements, 2 were calcium sources which I'm wondering is complicit now (i.e. a possible Ca build up)
  • RO water was used, other beneficial and preventative additives were used during the grow - i.e. SLF-100, Photo+, SouthernAg Garden Friendly Fungicide
  • Also periodic use of Big-6 for micros and Mykos/Azos throughout the grow.
  • As I was doing a little bit of a hybrid between organics (NFTG) and salts (Botanicare Kind) to use up some old stuff there were some salt-based light feeds.
Veg went smooth and no real issues or defs noticed; It was a very long veg though and I did something different this time and cleared out the lower junk that wouldn't be worth allowing to go into flower. They were under about 450w in a 2x4 space throughout and never showed any signs of burning.

The first thing I noticed going wrong was 1 out of 6 plants had a sudden downward tip and cupping (downward as well) which I thought was a N tox sign so I started to back off of any N inputs and did some RO water only flushing after giving them a drink with Hygrozyme and then SLF-100 (separate feeds) to help try to clear up and release anything that would be a build-up. What I didn't see at this point was any super dark green or shiny leaves so I wasn't convinced it was truly N tox going on. But the cupping and downward tips seemed to hint at it.

After that attempt, things were looking to clear up a little bit (not fully) so I started to return to a flowering feed schedule. I then noticed what I thought was the start of a K def as I had been much heavier on the N & P inputs (Alaska Fish Fertilizer and Herculean Harvest) up to that point and my only real K input was coming from the silica I was using (DynaGro). To help boost the K inputs I had used a little of the Bloom Khaos (NFTG) as a drench and then top-dressed with some Kelp (1tb to a 5g container) for some K to be released over time.

Now I'm suspecting I have a potential lockout more than a def; But what's throwing me off is the first sign was the veins of the leaves browning before actual spots appearing (bottom right picture) so when I looked at Ca and K defs their tell-tale signs were more about spotting or tip burning it seems. And in the case of toxicity those didn't jump out to me as being the case either but looking at Muelders chart I'm now wondering if I have lockouts from a high Ca level. It appears to be affecting the top of the plant and nothing down lower (which was also stripped when flipping into flower so there's not a lot down there).

So deficiency/toxicity gurus - what's your thoughts? The soil temps should be hovering around the low-to-mid 70's and I'm going to re-check the pH again but right now I'm very suspicious of a lockout instead of a deficiency. I'd also venture to guess the Magnesium could be low'ish but I was using calmag during veg/early flower since I was using the RO water and knew this strain/pheno was Ca/Mg hungry in the past.

View attachment 5117999 View attachment 5118000 View attachment 5118001

View attachment 5118002 View attachment 5118003 View attachment 5118009

Original soil mix tested before amendments were added (just NFTG/Bu's Compost/EWC):

View attachment 5118007
This soil had sat in a container (before use/amending it) for almost 2 full years so it should have been very well 'cooked' in that regard. After the amendments were added it did have a week or two otherwise and the extended veg time.

For the environmental factors, I'm hovering in the mid-to-high 70's and humidity around 40's and potentially lacking in air flow/circulation perhaps as I don't have any additional fans just the passive air intake and the exhaust/filter which does result in minor leaf movement. I have the controller set to allow things to get up to 82f but I'm not hitting those temps even with the LEDs (2x 400w - CLW SolarSystem 550) so my leaf temps aren't that far off from room temp. VPD is definitely not in target range.

Thanks for taking the time to read the details & any input!
Click to expand...
You've got a lot going on there. I'd pick one or the other, organics, or salts. I also noticed that you're using soil/coco. Most people that try to do organics in coco have issues.
 
N

NewGrower2011

Well-Known Member
So if I had posted pics alone without any of the details - pretending you didn't know all that - I'd be curious what folks think it matches when referring to the common sources for pics/examples of the various toxicity/deficiency types. That's what I was trying to match up to as a clue at least.
 
PadawanWarrior

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
NewGrower2011 said:
So if I had posted pics alone without any of the details - pretending you didn't know all that - I'd be curious what folks think it matches when referring to the common sources for pics/examples of the various toxicity/deficiency types. That's what I was trying to match up to as a clue at least.
Click to expand...
You said you're checking pH. How, with what? Also full plant pics are better than plucked leaves. And are you adjusting the pH of the water?
 
drsaltzman

drsaltzman

Well-Known Member
NewGrower2011 said:
So if I had posted pics alone without any of the details - pretending you didn't know all that - I'd be curious what folks think it matches when referring to the common sources for pics/examples of the various toxicity/deficiency types. That's what I was trying to match up to as a clue at least.
Click to expand...
It’s like going to the doctor for a rash.
He’s gonna ask questions.

Off the cuff it’s a lockout due to your overdone nutrients.
Plain water at a neutral PH for a couple feeds.
Then pick one for the rest of the way.
Forget about charts or chasing your test results at this point.
 
PadawanWarrior

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
drsaltzman said:
It’s like going to the doctor for a rash.
He’s gonna ask questions.

Off the cuff it’s a lockout due to your overdone nutrients.
Plain water at a neutral PH for a couple feeds.
Then pick one for the rest of the way.
Forget about charts or chasing your test results at this point.
Click to expand...
That's why I ask a bunch of questions before I make a guess on the issue.
 
N

NewGrower2011

Well-Known Member
Bluelab Soil pH pen was used for test; Distilled water to get the reading. Could probably use a calibration as it's been a few months but when checking my tap water with it the reading seemed to still be in the expected range from past checks.

My RO water is pretty much neutral iirc; Will check that again just to rule it out. But with the buffering in the medium I suspect the root zone is in that 6.8-7.0 range as I probed around at various depths and at multiple locations/containers.

For flushing, I had done plain water (RO) for a few days before even posting here to see if a good old flush would help or give any clues. Also the NFTG crowd seems to favor a 'herc flush' but that's going to be heavy on the P input with that approach. I did do a minor flush with it (Herc) initially before going the plain RO water route to bind up any excesses I could. I then used a tap water flush to see if chlorine was any issue and if there was any funk going on in the root zone in hopes of killing any form of pathogen/etc. After that I went a few more days with just RO water flushing. Wouldn't go so far as to say a full-fledge "flush" as in 3x the volume of container but no nutes/additives/etc.
 
drsaltzman

drsaltzman

Well-Known Member
NewGrower2011 said:
For flushing, I had done plain water (RO) for a few days before even posting here to see if a good old flush would help or give any clues. Also the NFTG crowd seems to favor a 'herc flush' but that's going to be heavy on the P input with that approach. I did do a minor flush with it (Herc) initially before going the plain RO water route to bind up any excesses I could. I then used a tap water flush to see if chlorine was any issue and if there was any funk going on in the root zone in hopes of killing any form of pathogen/etc. After that I went a few more days with just RO water flushing. Wouldn't go so far as to say a full-fledge "flush" as in 3x the volume of container but no nutes/additives/etc.
Click to expand...
I think you’re just doing too much honestly.
 
VincenzioVonHook

VincenzioVonHook

Well-Known Member
I find a lot of soil mixes i see on here are well overstimulated. I have an extremely simple mix which is made from a $4 30L bag of basic compost/potting mix (that bad it doesn't even tell you what its made from), 5L perlite, 5L propagation sand and the amendments added are agricultural lime/dolomite mix ( 70/30 respectively, a few tablespoons but not really measured), six tablespoons of organic 3:1:4 and half a cup of Neem meal for pest management. It gets to mid flower without showing any deficiencies. I say start simple and work up.

Another thing to consider is this: after cooking for that long, a lot of nutes and orgainc matter would have been broken down to an available form creating a clean scenario for lockout. Add more salts and you have a recipe for disaster. That and the microbiology is usually dead after that long in cook. Was the bin sealed? Was the medium kept moist and oxygenated for the Microbes? If sealed and not oxygenated/ kept moist, the microbes would be well dead after two years. With that much going on i'm at a loss though.
 
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70's natureboy

70's natureboy

Well-Known Member
It sounds like everyone agrees on a lock out. I have some leaves like that and don't really know what excess it is but I did let the EC drift up a little too high in hydro. I can fix mine in 10 minutes, you are going to have to wait it out.
 
S

senderen

New Member
Ok. I don't deal with ph. But when I did my first run, I used nutes and my runoff ph was always lower by .6-.7, I ph'd my feedings at about 6.8 and my runoff was around 6.1 - 6.2 . Could the op's issue be just as simple as watering/feeding at the correct ph level. 5.8 to start is too low for soil. Of course his runoff, is around 5. Of course some nutes may not be absorbed this at too low of a ph. Wouldn't just raising the ph correct the issue itself? Not trying to hijack the thread, but want to know. I'd like to expand my knowledge so i can provide accurate info to other growers if asked. The whole bottled nute thing, ph, ppm's etc seemed to be a real pain and confuses the shit out of me. That's why I went organic.
 
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