MY True HP Aero Plug&Play Pods

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OregonMeds

OregonMeds

Well-Known Member
I don't understand your last couple lines there fatman, I was under the impression the temperature of plants, roots, leaves, nutrients, humidity level all will affect the growth rate, and therefore nutrient needs always seem to vary but you sound like you are saying it doesn't matter at all in this case? Just with hp aero then I guess? The do rate doesn't vary here so it doesn't matter or what?


I have to make sure I'm hearing you right or that I haven't picked up some wrong info in the past or what. And I still don't get why your roots don't just rot all the time with high temps and ideal conditions practically, you just don't air out tap water and get enough chlorine so that's not an issue or why is root rot not a problem?

All this talk of 95 degree nutrient solution sounds insane like it's impossible that would work.
Makes me think you're just pulling peoples legs.
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
Plants grow most efficiently at higher temps as along as all needs are provided in sufficient quantities. IE you can not grow efficiently at high temps with inadequate lighting, inadequate CO2, inadequate water or nutrients. The reason low temps for a reservoirs water is recommended is to provide water with a higher DO so as to hopefully, with poorly designed systems, provide adequate levels of high DO water to the roots and therefore prevent root death and areas of zero or very low DO that cause bacterial multiplication of oxygen hating bacteria that would cause increased root death and spreading of the root rot. This is not an issue with HP or air atomized aero where the roots are always receiving water saturated with Oxygen due to the finely atomized spray. Roots die when they do not receive adequate amounts of contact with water with adequate DO. With most systems very little water comes into contact with the roots in the middle of the root bundles. What little water reaches the roots in the center is almost stripped or is already stripped of DO. This causes root death. Root death and bacteria combined means rapid putrefaction/rot. Chlorine prevents nearly all the bacteria from being present and what is still present does not multiply well. This means the dead roots do not quickly putrefy/rot, but still die ue to a lack of DO. At a slower rate though as bacteria are not feeding on the dead roots and dieing roots. Roots simply take up nutrients more efficiently at higher temps.

Plants transpire more at higher temps, as long as you keep the humidity down, so the roots take up more water that can carry more nutrients than a smaller volume of water. Simple. There are many old, tired, myths circulated about the need for low reservoir temps that are usually largely based upon say 64 degrees f water containing more DO then 86 degree water (21% more) that really does not matter. The problem is not that the water holds too little DO, it is that the water is not circulating well through large masses of roots. Regardless of where the water has 9,4 ppm or 7.4 ppm of DO, if the water is only reaching thew inner roots at in very small amounts they will still not receive adequate DO. That is not the case with roots hanging in air that are sprayed or with a DWC system with heavy water circulation that keeps plenty of water with high DO contacting ALL the roots because the root masses are being moved ans separated by strong water currents. This is not the case with typical DWC, small tube aero, or NTF systems. Because of this those systems have greater incidence of root rot even with low temp high DO reservoir water. IE some myths die hard even when there is no sound basis for their existence.
 
OregonMeds

OregonMeds

Well-Known Member
Ok still shaking my head, I tend to believe you but that doesn't explain why my plants died a while back in dwc with inadequate cooling before they even had a chance to grow enough roots to cut off DO from parts. I was throwing a lot of air, enough to stir the water well, and they just flat died anyway because the stupid air pump raised my water temp to nearly what you are talking about.

So you are saying that would have actually been ok had I only had a little chlorine in there and not aired out my water?

If you are relying on tap water chlorine in a dwc system that stuff will evaporate off quick right? You'd have to add pool chlorine?
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
Tap water chlorinelevels are typically only adequate for 24 hours. Then you need to add more. Water temps should not be higher than the palnt temperatures unless you have a humidity below about 35% to 40%. A lot of the drive behing transportation is the differece in the palnts salt concentration in the plants fluids and the nutrient water ppm. However a temperature difference can also be a large driving forcebehing water transport. If the palnats are not at a high nutrient uptakesatgethen they are dependent n more of a slight temperature difference to cause water up talke and a low humidity. Most peple have enoughtemperature difference at the plant canopy due to intense lighting to lalow for enough twater up take and therefore transporation. Having roots in water dos not mean they are up taking water. Without water uptake there is no oxygen uptake. Clones and seedlings are often under domes beacuse there lack of roots or minimiml roots nean they can not supply enough DO to bioth the roots and the lants for both to grow plus provide cooling through transporation water evaporation. The domes lower the water needs for the plant. seedlings and clones are usually kept in cooler room air thanwater temp.
 
A

AeroTrek

Active Member
fatman7574 said:
Definite flaw in the calculator design. It will not allow a calculation that is based upon any situation where there is not at least 1 complete air exchange per hour. Even so: Using 1 cubic meter chamber with a cosnstant 9% defree F temp and water at 95 degrees F with the spray being admnistered approx 1% of the time ie 0.6 seconds per minute it shows a nozzle rated at 51.4 gph spraying a total of 0.41 gph would maintian a relative humidity between 90% and 95% with no increase needed for a water temp. So say 20% of that value beacuse the air exchange would likey be less that 1/5 of an air exchange per hour. Therefore 0.082 gph or about 1.96 gallons per day. Based on home mixed fertilizers and RO warter costing 20 cents per gallon to produce, the nutrient cost would be 40.032 per day. Yes the fertilizer cost is only 3.2 cents per day. $5 worth of salts making a 100x fertilizer diluted to 300 to 1 so as to obtain a low enough TDS for use with HP or air atomized aero. The calculator stated 0.95 cf of air per at 40 psi. Gravity feed from 18" would drop those air needs down to about 0.43 cu feet and 15 psi. So a relative humidity controller would work quite well it seems but one would likely have to assure adquate air exchange of at least 1/10 of an air exchange per hour for the chamber. A few vent holes should easily accomplish that as there will be a positive pressure an time the nozzles spray and that air in and of itself will assure at least a 5% exchange. Then their is the floor drain. All seems do able.
Click to expand...
Fatman,
It would definitely be a great way to control the nutrient feed in the root chamber assuming the drop size is within the acceptable range. I would test the system in an empty chamber before attempting a grow with it. It's been a long time since my thermal dynamic classes but something here is not adding up. Even with the numbers your using I still get a temp of 120 deg.F. I agree with you, the air exchange would be the air/water mixture going into the chamber and that would have to displace the equal amount to the atmosphere. The calculator only allows a minimum air exchange rate of 0.5 cu.m/hr for a cubic meter chamber...therefore this would be the volume of air/water mixture allowed into the chamber per/hr. Would any less or any more affect the RH and temps were looking for, I don't know.
It's something to look into for the future, but for right now I'll try a basic air assisted atomizing system and work out the kinks there. I won't be going as far as timing using a infrared sensor but it's feasible if you mount it vertically in the chamber instead of horizontally where the roots may interfere with the device. Thanks again for your input into the subject.
 
Jimmy Luffnan

Jimmy Luffnan

Well-Known Member
I have a picture here that you can reopen and draw lines where the parts need to be as I'm a little confused :-P

Also if you can post links to where the solenoid and cutoff switches can be bought that would be equally excellent! :leaf:

Cheers Jimmy.
 

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fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
The calculator is flawed. It will accept yu punching in 0.5 air exchanges per hour but it then syas 1 per hour and calculates at 1 per hour. Punch in system running 100% with a 0.5 m^3 chamber exchange. IE it will say 1 exchange not 0.5%, Enter 95% to 100% humidity change desired with both temps at 95 degrees F. This calculator indicates there will always be a evaporative cooling effect as long as your increasing the humidity. It will not allow a decrease in humidity it will just say no morehumidity needed. That is a flaw. It is implying that there would be 9 degrees of evapoartive cooling with the nozzle at a minimum. It sells nozzles for evavporative cooling. The calculators is set up to provide conditions for conductive cooling. It implis that evaporative cooling will lawtys occur. The only way this can happen is if the air circulated through (sprayed into)the chamber is at a lower humidity so that it takes up humidity and thermal energy from the warmer water and exhausts it out side the chamber. How this miracle would happen is beyond me as the air entering the chamber is at a higher humidity and the same temp. The only possible way thermal energy is being lost is if the air leaving the chamber was in fact lower in humidity as the plants took up water. However if you try to punch in a desired chamber temperature that is lower than the starting temp as it alledges due to thermal energy transferred to out going air it simply shuts down and says no more humidity needed. It tales a tremendous amount of air to get 9 degree evaporative cooling. There is just not that much air noiving through the chamber.
 
Essex

Essex

Active Member
Jimmy Luffnan said:
I have a picture here that you can reopen and draw lines where the parts need to be as I'm a little confused :-P

Also if you can post links to where the solenoid and cutoff switches can be bought that would be equally excellent! :leaf:

Cheers Jimmy.
Click to expand...
My idea is still on the drawing board, but I will do a complete "how to" and full grow journal using cheap parts with links when im done, in few months :-)
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
Jimmy Luffnan said:
I have a picture here that you can reopen and draw lines where the parts need to be as I'm a little confused :-P

Also if you can post links to where the solenoid and cutoff switches can be bought that would be equally excellent! :leaf:

Cheers Jimmy.
Click to expand...
I did not show the solenoid. It would be in between the ball valve and the nozzles. The valves. pressure swiiches and solenoid would all be avilable from eBay.
 

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OregonMeds

OregonMeds

Well-Known Member
fatman7574 said:
Tap water chlorinelevels are typically only adequate for 24 hours. Then you need to add more. Water temps should not be higher than the palnt temperatures unless you have a humidity below about 35% to 40%. A lot of the drive behing transportation is the differece in the palnts salt concentration in the plants fluids and the nutrient water ppm. However a temperature difference can also be a large driving forcebehing water transport. If the palnats are not at a high nutrient uptakesatgethen they are dependent n more of a slight temperature difference to cause water up talke and a low humidity. Most peple have enoughtemperature difference at the plant canopy due to intense lighting to lalow for enough twater up take and therefore transporation. Having roots in water dos not mean they are up taking water. Without water uptake there is no oxygen uptake. Clones and seedlings are often under domes beacuse there lack of roots or minimiml roots nean they can not supply enough DO to bioth the roots and the lants for both to grow plus provide cooling through transporation water evaporation. The domes lower the water needs for the plant. seedlings and clones are usually kept in cooler room air thanwater temp.
Click to expand...
People would flat die to see a successful 95 degree dwc grow. No they'd shit themselves... No they'd shit themselves and then die.

Ok then this brings up a related question, through another recent failure (I mean learning experience) I became painfully aware of lumen shock. For some reason it just didn't come to mind I would have to work a plant up to the light I was trying to throw at it like you do when hardening plants off to going outside etc, they already were full plants not just clones at that point and had been given what would have been enough of a switch when I ran just 1k but it must have been too big of a gap when I tried to go over 1k. I thought I eased them into it enough just with the lights higher the first day or so like usual but nooo.

How would that relate to say taking a couple clones from my normal temp cloner system after they are more than fully rooted and seeing how they like the hot and steamy dip? Should I ramp the temp up over a series of days or what can a person really expect to get away with? And day night temp swings, would I need to add a heater in the water to keep it closer? What range?
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
Yes palnts can experience lighting intensity shock. Plants, even those acclimated to intense lighting can be supplied too much lighting. That is seldom an issue however.

In reagrd to a sudden ambient temperature change. The effect would also dependent on the lighting intensity. At a low lighting intensity the rise in temp would mean possibly more transpiration, depending on the humidity. This would mean more nutrient uptake. This can lead to nitroen burn or more likely a stretched plants height. If I am worried about the lighting intensity change and can not alter the light bulb distance of the new intense lighting I put a three layers of fiber glass screen between the tender plants and the lights and remove a layer every few days. In most cases the issue is the heat of intense lighting rather then thr catual amount of PAR or Lumens.

Here is an interesting university article you might like. There is a pull down window with different articles but the site is still bing develpoed so not all links contain material yet. http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/Courses/hort494/greenhouse/lighting/light.html
 
OregonMeds

OregonMeds

Well-Known Member
Hmmm ok, I'm about to tempt fate again then, but I'm not doing any indoor with insane light right now or flowering at all anyway I'm just keeping a couple moms and I can put some test plants in with them, and they can go for a while that way.

I'm not able to supplement co2 there though, and complete air exchange with outside is easy to keep co2 high as possible but that would throw off temps if I exchange too much and I can't be screwing the moms over. Well then again my indoor co2 levels would be higher than outdoor without a bunch of plants eating more than we put out right?
 
Jimmy Luffnan

Jimmy Luffnan

Well-Known Member
fatman7574 said:
I did not show the solenoid. It would be in between the ball valve and the nozzles. The valves. pressure switches and solenoid would all be available from eBay.
Click to expand...
Thank you very much for that fatman! It is greatly appreciated =D

I take it that the ball valves are used to adjust pressure.

Thanks again!

Jimmy.
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
No just to close off flows for amintenance purposes. There is a pressure regulator on the exit from the tank by the pressure gauge to control the pressure to the nozzles. Typically for an application such as this the regulator woould be adjustable to anywhere from zero psi to 150 psi. Most people for safety sake also installa pressure relief valve at the pumps exit. This assures tat the tank does not afil if the pump does not shut off.
 
H

hydroboy27

Member
if i remember right, fatman had a little equation for adding bleach. was it a table spoon of bleach per 55 gallons per 3 days? correct me if im off fatman, thanks

what fatman is saying is.... the more important part to the equation is the difference in temp between the plants air, and the root water. WHen you get a 15 degree swing or more... the temp difference screws with the plants uptake of nutes. He can give the scientific reasons why.

Hes also saying that if spray is occuring, the waters DO is maximized in the instant before the water droplets hit the roots, as they are floating around your root chamber.

The only thing i have noticed helps... is if you have a closed room, and pretty air tight chambers... and are running co2 in the room.... it helps if you put an air stone in each chamber, and have a compressor pushing air in from outside the room, that is oxygen rich, into only the root chambers... otherwise where are the water droplets going to get their o2? and how much co2 are they going to be saturated with?... too much obviously.

so that being the case, if you keep the chambers pressurized with 02 rich air, the c02 has a hard time of making it back in the chamber because no air is entering the chamber.

One can argue if this helps or doesnt help.... but i use the old fashioned, "try it on some of your plants, and leave others alone, and see if theres a difference" and there definately is, plants that have it look healthier within a day. I think its getting rid of the rich concentrations of c02 in the chamber that is the bigger factor, because thats toxic to the roots i think, and hurts plants.

Cant get rid of co2 unless you replace it with something else... and why not replace it with o2 if the roots need it? just common sense if you ask me.
 
H

hydroboy27

Member
read the whole thing...

im not smart enough to figure out the dosage needed tho?

I assume you were referring to me as the one who was correct with the bleach... tablespoon per 55gal per 3 days?

only thing that worries me is im using all these expensive nutes that have beneficial bacteria etc, and the chlorine kills them.

But, right now on the bottom of my roots, im starting to get rot.

I havent tried b52, or any of the other so called root rot solvers.

Anyone have any non bleach, successful additive to use?
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
Anthing that is oing to disinfect is going to kill both "beneficial" and non beneficial bacteria and enzymes. That is why with chemical nutrients that really do not gain through the use of enzymes and "beneficial bacteria" of which there are none it is common to run a sterile system. The supplements are chiefly to make organic fertilizers more available to uptake by plant roots. Using them to control root rot is quite a long shot and is seldom effective. The theory is that the enzymes win in the cmpetion for food so therefore there are less bateria multiplying and feeding on the roots. The manfacturers alledge som un spokem miracle. Both the enzymes and the bacteria accomplish the same thing, vconverting dead roots into a nitrogen usable by the plant. Enzymes allededly do so quicker than the bacteria. Root rot is putreffied dead roots. The roots after death but before putrfying are attacked by both enzymes and bacteria. They are already dead. The bacteria causes putrefication. Then other bacteria use the putrefying roots as foo and convert the roots to nitrite, then another bacteria convert the nitrite to nitrate fertilizer. This is the natural process of "ORGaNIC NUTRIENTS". Enzymes convert the dead roots to ammonium nitrogen in a single step process rather than to nitrate in a three step process.
In a chemical nutrient solution without all the bacteria and enzymes the dead roots just decompose and become dissolved and particulate organic matter. The bacteria that are everywhere in air, water and soil, will find the organics and feed on them, but only if there is no chlorine present to prevent their populating the reservoir to start the feeding process.
 
Jimmy Luffnan

Jimmy Luffnan

Well-Known Member
fatman7574 said:
No just to close off flows for maintenance purposes. There is a pressure regulator on the exit from the tank by the pressure gauge to control the pressure to the nozzles. Typically for an application such as this the regulator would be adjustable to anywhere from zero psi to 150 psi. Most people for safety sake also install a pressure relief valve at the pumps exit. This assures tat the tank does not fill if the pump does not shut off.
Click to expand...
Haha.. yeah sorry! I realized that after I posted, that the pressure regulator handles everything just like a FPR in a car's fuel system.
Thanks again!

Jimmy
 
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