Need Information on Cal/Mag Deficiencies When Using Led Lights

hybridway2

Amare Shill
I found this post doing a Google search after experiencing the same issues. LEDeficiency. And here's my experience so far. Growing with Jacks Nutrients, I had to increase the mag slightly. I run 1.5 grams per gallon of Epson instead of the suggested 1.2. Also. Depending on the LED, Move it up further, and/or dim it down. One of the most repeated Broscience things I see is that plants grow optimally with 800-1000 ppfd. In my 8 years of growing with CO2 and completely dialed in VPD, I can tell you anything over 750ish was pushing my plants to their maximum. Anything over 800 and they would display multiple nutrient deficiencies. That is 750 ppf at peak flower. I'm currently growing in a room with 12 HLG550v2s and I find I have to keep them at 30 inches above the top cola AND they are dimmed to 65% using a Trolmaster. (a 1000w Gavita in a open enviroment at 36 inches puts down a par of around 450 center of the light according to par maps ive found online) The ironic thing here, is before I switched to HLG 550s, I tested LEDs doing a 8 strip Samsung Strip build at 2.1 amps drawing around 770 watts. I had 2 plants that stretched up to about 2 inches away from the strips and never shown any signs of light burn or deficiencies. (well over 1200 ppfd at that proximity). Last but not least. Increase your room temps to 82-86 degrees. Growing with HIDs I kept my room at a nice cool 76, which gave me a leaf surface temp of around 80-81. I find now I had to increase my room temp about 8-9 degrees. With my room at 83-85 degrees, my leaf surface temp fluctuates between 75-81 (yes.. almost 8 degrees colder than ambient)
Sounds like you know wazup!
Just a quick update, so you know that I know what I'm talking about. I attached some pictures to show the size of my plants, and the color. I just got done defoliating, so there aren't many fan leaves, but I took an up-close picture of what I could. The picture of one of my 15ft botanicare rolling benches contains 8 plants per 4x8 (I previously ran 6 plants per 4x8) I lied about what lights I run. The 4 in the middle of the room are HLG 600h, the 8 on the sides are hlg550s. It was only after purchasing the 600s did I realize they were too powerful for my room, and I have them hung about 33 inches from the tallest colas. The HLG 550s are hung about 26-27 inches away from the top cola. All lights are dimmed to 65%. this gives me roughly 650ppfd in a 2ft square from center of the light, and around 450ppfd out to the edges on all 3 trays. My current room temp at 80 degrees is my swing low, my swing high is around 83-84, I personally don't like it to get hotter than that. And for those of you who said that you can't grow good weed with LEDs. I'll note the tray I photoed here I averaged 1.25 lbs per plant with 6 plants in a 4x8 (and room in between each plant). Assuming I get the same numbers now. I'll pull 20lbs on 16 plants in a 4x15 area under 4 HLG 550s (I know I said 600s, but I raised them higher to keep the ppfd levels the same as the 550, ill be switching out the drivers next grow) 20lbs = 8960 grams. 480w at 65% = 312w x 4 = 1248w. 8960/1248 = 7.17 grams per watt.

If I could do it over again. I'd go with 16 slate3s with 3 qb288s each, and HLG 320h-1750 drivers, Space the lights roughly 24 inches on center for an even spread covering a 12x16 grow area. 24 inches above canopy, and adjust dimmer until my ppfd was around the 700 range. (obviously dimmer in veg). I feel like this would give you the most even coverage with insane efficiency.
You dis not mean to say 7 gpw did you?
 

DJOly

Active Member
On this specific strain yes, around 7 GPW. not as a room total. Other strains that I run, Bohdi Bro-G, Bodhi Sunshine #4, and Scooby Snacks all average 11-12 oz a plant. My White Tahoe Cookies is always over a 1 lb per plant, the buds will fatten up all the way down to the bottom. Insanely high efficiency will always be genetic dependant. But there is no question, that once you got it dialed in LEDs are the way to go.
 

Norml56

Well-Known Member
Just a quick update, so you know that I know what I'm talking about. I attached some pictures to show the size of my plants, and the color. I just got done defoliating, so there aren't many fan leaves, but I took an up-close picture of what I could. The picture of one of my 15ft botanicare rolling benches contains 8 plants per 4x8 (I previously ran 6 plants per 4x8) I lied about what lights I run. The 4 in the middle of the room are HLG 600h, the 8 on the sides are hlg550s. It was only after purchasing the 600s did I realize they were too powerful for my room, and I have them hung about 33 inches from the tallest colas. The HLG 550s are hung about 26-27 inches away from the top cola. All lights are dimmed to 65%. this gives me roughly 650ppfd in a 2ft square from center of the light, and around 450ppfd out to the edges on all 3 trays. My current room temp at 80 degrees is my swing low, my swing high is around 83-84, I personally don't like it to get hotter than that. And for those of you who said that you can't grow good weed with LEDs. I'll note the tray I photoed here I averaged 1.25 lbs per plant with 6 plants in a 4x8 (and room in between each plant). Assuming I get the same numbers now. I'll pull 20lbs on 16 plants in a 4x15 area under 4 HLG 550s (I know I said 600s, but I raised them higher to keep the ppfd levels the same as the 550, ill be switching out the drivers next grow) 20lbs = 8960 grams. 480w at 65% = 312w x 4 = 1248w. 8960/1248 = 7.17 grams per watt.

If I could do it over again. I'd go with 16 slate3s with 3 qb288s each, and HLG 320h-1750 drivers, Space the lights roughly 24 inches on center for an even spread covering a 12x16 grow area. 24 inches above canopy, and adjust dimmer until my ppfd was around the 700 range. (obviously dimmer in veg). I feel like this would give you the most even coverage with insane efficiency.
20lbs from 1250 watts.... interesting. The typical gpw lie is 3. You went straight to level 10!
 

DJOly

Active Member
*Shrug* ... Think what you want. I'm not here to flex on everyone and show I'm the best. I'm just here showing other's who haven't been able to figure this out in 2 years how to fix their problem and grow quality plants that yield.
 

Norml56

Well-Known Member
*Shrug* ... Think what you want. I'm not here to flex on everyone and show I'm the best. I'm just here showing other's who haven't been able to figure this out in 2 years how to fix their problem and grow quality plants that yield.
Claiming 7gpw while running only 20watts a square foot in what looks like a converted garage walled off with plastic that is providing almost no reflection. That is just to far out in the left field to be believable.
 

DJOly

Active Member
Claiming 7gpw while running only 20watts a square foot in what looks like a converted garage walled off with plastic that is providing almost no reflection. That is just to far out in the left field to be believable.
Cool bro. like I said, believe what you want. The end yield is speculative based on past numbers hit with the same strain. Previously I had 6 plants per 4x8 with dead space in between. I added 2 plants per tray to fill the space. Whether you want to criticize me or run with my advice won't matter to me one bit. I'll keep moving forward.

And the side plastic is Orca. Plenty of diffuse reflection.
 

Humple

Well-Known Member
Some past runs I've done with single ended HPS. which give off less light than LEDs. But no... It's impossible to hit high gpw with more efficient lights. Maybe the reason you yield low, or have a lower GPW is because you're blasting your plants with too much light. stressed plants don't produce.
Very nice plants, but... You're claiming 7g/w and then stating that it's speculative?
 

DJOly

Active Member
I never claimed that I've hit 7gpw. I did the math as to what I was expecting based on previous yields, and what my current power draw is. So yes, it's speculative as I won't know for sure for another 5 weeks. What I do know 100% is that it will be well over 3 GPW, and again, its strain-dependent. I have a killer pheno of White Tahoe Cookies that yields insanely heavy. Even the buds at the bottom of the plant are as fat and nearly as dense as the ones at the top. My other plants all average around 10-12 oz per plant respectively. Also. When I give GPW numbers, I'm not factoring in cooling watts or dehumidification watts. Just lighting watts. You def don't NEED to run a HLG 550 at full power. you also don't NEED 600w to cover a 4x4 tray. I can't find a PAR map for a single ended HPS adjust-a-wing, but I did find one for a DE, and at 24 inches above canopy its around 450 PPF. (and as you can see I grew torpedos with that). A HLG 550v2 R-spec at 24 inches from the tallest cola (30 inches from the rest of the canopy), dimmed to 65% draws 312w and will still give more light than a 1000w single ended in a Adjust-a-Wing. If you could hit 1 GPW with a 1000w HPS, dropping to 312w automatically puts you in the 3 GPW range. idk why people would seem to think that's a "lie"
 

Norml56

Well-Known Member
I never claimed that I've hit 7gpw. I did the math as to what I was expecting based on previous yields, and what my current power draw is. So yes, it's speculative as I won't know for sure for another 5 weeks. What I do know 100% is that it will be well over 3 GPW, and again, its strain-dependent. I have a killer pheno of White Tahoe Cookies that yields insanely heavy. Even the buds at the bottom of the plant are as fat and nearly as dense as the ones at the top. My other plants all average around 10-12 oz per plant respectively. Also. When I give GPW numbers, I'm not factoring in cooling watts or dehumidification watts. Just lighting watts. You def don't NEED to run a HLG 550 at full power. you also don't NEED 600w to cover a 4x4 tray. I can't find a PAR map for a single ended HPS adjust-a-wing, but I did find one for a DE, and at 24 inches above canopy its around 450 PPF. (and as you can see I grew torpedos with that). A HLG 550v2 R-spec at 24 inches from the tallest cola (30 inches from the rest of the canopy), dimmed to 65% draws 312w and will still give more light than a 1000w single ended in a Adjust-a-Wing. If you could hit 1 GPW with a 1000w HPS, dropping to 312w automatically puts you in the 3 GPW range. idk why people would seem to think that's a "lie"
Ok, that makes more sense, you are just playing with the numbers. You've never actually done this.
 

Laughinggrass420

Active Member
Great thread.

I run fluence 2i. & 2 electric sky’s. Over 4x12.
Sealed room. Flora flex nutes.

my best run was with Dina gem Purple Afghan kush at 1.8GPW.

I will say there is some SERIOUS truth about LST posted in this thread and farmers in the know will acknowledge this. My room swing from 80-85 f to keep my plants running at around 80 f. LST. Strain dependent I find I do have to supplement mag in transition.

definitely invest indimmer.

when dialed LED puts HID to shit interpene, resin quality & overall production numbers.

it’s still always trial and error with new genetics.

Right now I’m 4 weeks in on ethos platinum cake and they are struggling. Showing all kinds of deficiency’s but growers err my dimmer wiring shit 2 weeks into flower. To busy to rewire so just let it ride and plants went from happy to pissed very quickly.
 

te5ter

Active Member
Found this thread referenced from another related so thought this info might add value. I get ~2GPW at 17 Watts/sq ft at 5-10 inches and no cal-mag. Copied from Could Low Humidity Do This?:

All leaves on the plant should be "praying to the light", otherwise you have an issue. The initial pictures of this thread showed signs of too much light. The larger the trunk is on the plant, the more light it can take. Too much light (not heat from light) will cause the plant's "pump system" to overload and break down. New leaf growth will be curled and stunted. Larger new leaves at the top will become leathery as they shrivel to protect from the light. The first signs of too much light will be rust spots or cal-mag like deficiencies in older leaves. I think this is caused by deficiencies in other parts of the plant due to the system overload from the excess light. Magnesium is a "mobile" element so the plant can rob it from the leaves if it is needed elsewhere. If not corrected the rust spots will continue to spread into flowering and trichome density will be affected negatively. There might be other factors that contribute to the rust spots. I never had much success with adding cal-mag, if any. VPD might be a factor. My plants were continuously fed a large amount of low humidity air from the house but I never measured.
If you ever see the rust spots, back off on the light and you will see that the leaves will recover so that the areas around the rust spots will fill with dark green and the spots will cease to spread.
Broad spectrum LED's can easily overload a plant. I ran a 8 sq ft box with a 400 watt sodium for years and suffered from the rust problem but still produced decent bud. The box had very low head space so I had to keep my plants small. The trunks never got larger than 3/8" or so. I switched to Bridgelux LED at 200 watts and fried my plants real quick. When I finally caught on after trying just about everything I fine tuned and found out exactly how much light those small plants could take before getting rust spots. For that 8 sq ft canopy area the most they could take was 130-135 watts of BridgeLux 3500k strip LED's at 5-10 inches from the canopy.
Finely burned tips are not necessarily an indication of an issue. You can get rid of them by turning the light way down but that will affect the yield.
I've run PPM up to around 4000 before any signs of toxicity showed. My cheap Chinese meter had gone way off and I didn't know it. The leaves got very dark green, curled over, and got crispy dry. PPM had been high for a while but they showed no signs of ill health. When I added the last bit of nutes they turned overnight. When I got a good meter I was amazed that they could take that much nutes. I normally run 1300-1400 all the way through with RO water that comes out around 70-100.
You have to have a nute reservoir large enough so that changes in water level don't affect PPM and PH. The best you can do is run a float valve with continuous RO water supply. PPM will drop as the plants eat, PH will rise slightly as the PPM goes down, and you feed just a little at a time to keep PPM and PH in the desired range.
If you do see rust spots and it's not too bad, they might stop spreading as the plant becomes larger and can handle more light.
The best thing you can do for your efforts is to keep a log with pictures, PPM, Watts, PH, other changes... everything. Otherwise you will chase your tail and get frustrated. Keep it simple. Change one thing at a time. Be patient and see what those changes do.
If the plant is stressed, turn the light down until you figure out what's going on. Transplanted plants need low light to slow the metabolism so it can have time to adjust to the new environment and get the "bio engine" running again. You'll know when the plant is ready to go. Push it too hard and you'll end up with immune issues and root rot. Healthy plants can deal with a little bacteria in the water without getting sick.
When you fill a new tub, give it a few days for the bacteria flora to stabilize before you put transplanted plants in that are stressed. The tub doesn't have to be 100% sterile. Just remove all organic material, run water with a cup of bleach through the pump and everything for a day or so, flush that, then fill it, add nutes, and let it sit for a few days with pump and air stone running so that the good bacteria can stabilize the environment. Then put your plants in with low light until they start growing and look healthy. I've actually gone two full harvests without changing the nutes so don't think you have to kill yourself to flush and refill. Just keep healthy plants and the tub will stay healthy.
If you don't have a dial or app to adjust the light intensity you are doing it wrong. :)
What I'm learning now is that a sealed environment requires a crap ton of humidity removal. Those plants are like water pumps. And to keep humidity and temperature stable it requires a huge amount of air space just like the nute reservoir needs to be large enough to handle small changes. Otherwise humidity will go up and down as your equipment tries to deal with it.
The attached pics are of an LED burnt plant from 25watts/sq ft and a bud produced with 17watts/sq ft of BridgeLux 3500k LED strips and no cal-mag added.
 

Attachments

Comparator

Well-Known Member
Just a quick update, so you know that I know what I'm talking about. I attached some pictures to show the size of my plants, and the color. I just got done defoliating, so there aren't many fan leaves, but I took an up-close picture of what I could. The picture of one of my 15ft botanicare rolling benches contains 8 plants per 4x8 (I previously ran 6 plants per 4x8) I lied about what lights I run. The 4 in the middle of the room are HLG 600h, the 8 on the sides are hlg550s. It was only after purchasing the 600s did I realize they were too powerful for my room, and I have them hung about 33 inches from the tallest colas. The HLG 550s are hung about 26-27 inches away from the top cola. All lights are dimmed to 65%. this gives me roughly 650ppfd in a 2ft square from center of the light, and around 450ppfd out to the edges on all 3 trays. My current room temp at 80 degrees is my swing low, my swing high is around 83-84, I personally don't like it to get hotter than that. And for those of you who said that you can't grow good weed with LEDs. I'll note the tray I photoed here I averaged 1.25 lbs per plant with 6 plants in a 4x8 (and room in between each plant). Assuming I get the same numbers now.
If I could do it over again. I'd go with 16 slate3s with 3 qb288s each, and HLG 320h-1750 drivers, Space the lights roughly 24 inches on center for an even spread covering a 12x16 grow area. 24 inches above canopy, and adjust dimmer until my ppfd was around the 700 range. (obviously dimmer in veg). I feel like this would give you the most even coverage with insane efficiency.
"Just a quick update, so you know that I know what I'm talking about. "
"I'll pull 20lbs on 16 plants in a 4x15 area under 4 HLG 550s (I know I said 600s, but I raised them higher to keep the ppfd levels the same as the 550, ill be switching out the drivers next grow) 20lbs = 8960 grams. 480w at 65% = 312w x 4 = 1248w. 8960/1248 = 7.17 grams per watt."
Sp how'd you wind up making out? Did you hit that 20#'s in a 4x15 off x4 hlg, 550's? Or was it 9#'s?
 

Roguedawg

Well-Known Member
To the original poster, increase total EC and you will not have problems. The only time i ever see it is when my coco is not charged. I increase EC until they green up and then go back to 1.2 to1.5 EC.
For everyone that always says Ca. Mg. deficiency, it is most likely not a deficiency caused by not enough Ca or Mg it is a cation imbalance. In other words you could cut back the K and the plant will uptake the Ca and Mg in greater amounts. In 3 decades of growing non stop i have never seen a calcium deficiency in cannabis. If you really have a Ca or mg deficiency you need to increase the one that is missing not both, they will compete with each other for uptake, but if your K is too high the k uptake will outcompete both.
 
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