New Colorado Seed Company - 303 SEEDS

eyecandi · Oct 26, 2011

I'm torn when it comes to fem seeds. if done correctly, with a stable female (won't toss nanners/ballz under stress) then she is less likely to combine to have herm prone offspring. if using a non-stable female, then the offspring have a greater chance at hermaphrodism and to the end grower, this can also be detrimental (just spent how much time wasted on growing 3 from seed to have them all toss ballz in week 4 of flowering? that kind of scenario SUCKS). also depends on the end user - will the end user just grow it out and call it good, or use it for further breeding? if for further breeding, again, a stable parent is important so you don't go spreading around more hermi genes ... we see too much as it is. in my case, I grow my own fem seeds because I can toss 20 seeds in and know that I can toss in 20 girls into flowering in 2 months. but i also do regular crosses with regular stable strains because I love the variety and the constant hunt for the golden goose

+ it gives my patients and friends fun stuff to play with

Medshed · Oct 27, 2011

Hey eyecandi - I think you summed up the pros and cons of fem seeds pretty well. Assuming they were bred properly, they shouldn't have hermi issues. If a person is just growing for the final product (not breeding) they have no need for males and prefer to know how many producing plants they will get out of a pack of seeds. In my situation, I like to have a few strains around for variety (usually a daytime, evening, and night strain). Trying to grow 3 strains from regular seed is a crap shoot when you can only have 6 in veg to get to your 3 flowering plants. Ideally you'd want to pop at least 3 beans of each strain to make sure you get 1 female of each that you want to run to the end.

Do you use colloidal silver to make your fems? How consistent are the phenos from your fems? I'm very interested in making my own fems from selected phenos out of my regular seed grows. I'm curious to know how close the fems will be to the original pheno. I'm assuming you would self the pheno you want for the fems, rather than crossing with one of its siblings.

Later,
Medshed

eyecandi · Oct 27, 2011

I only use colloidal silver for fem'ing, any other method I'm aware of will reinforce the hermaphrodism trait. currently, I'm only doing it to my Durban Poison - this particular pheno came to me from a friend and I made a promise to never give her clones away (I don't believe in hoarding strains, I'm a giver. but this cut was so good, i made the promise. and I don't go back on my word .... kinda weird that way). she is far and above any DP I've ever grown, and I didn't want to lose her, so CS fem'ing was the way to go. so far the phenos are consistant, but I just finished the first small test batch recently and there weren't enough to truly say. the next run will be much bigger and give me a better idea.

since i had the pollen, I also hit my herijuana and afgooey to see what they will do. not many beans from the afgooey, but it's the one I'm looking forward to the most

indipow82 · Oct 27, 2011

I will always be a Tester for your beans Eyecandi! Love what I am growing now, never had such strong genetics handle bullshit ph issues and heat from the desert like these have!

budpatch · Oct 27, 2011

Medshed said:
This is where the breeder's job becomes more difficult in the age of medical cannabis. I believe most patients want to drop a seed in the ground and end up with a finished product that exactly (or at least very closely) fits the breeder description of the product. Cannaseurs (who may also be patients) are generally looking for something unique.

If I ran a seed company in a medical state I think I'd focus on the patients who want consistency and simplicity first, and the cannaseurs second. You almost need two lines of each strain. The patient line would be feminized seeds with traits locked in for the medical effects. The cannaseur line would be regular seeds that produce variability within a range of traits. Color being a good example here. Color appeals to cannaseurs but has zero relevance to treatment of a specific medical condition.

I know to most people on these boards feminized seeds are the work of the devil but they are important for people who are forced by law to keep plant numbers and total product weight down. It is very difficult to stay within the law in CO if you need multiple strains and can't afford the expense of running multiple rooms for mothers, flower, etc. Feminized seeds that deliver consistent finished product would help a lot in this regard.

I think where you go off track with your post is the "most patients" part. I don't know if I'd stereotype patients that grow like that. In my experience, most New Growers (less than 2 years growing +/- can be mmj patient or not) want a product that you are talking about. Patient Growers I would categorize differently. I think patient growers generally already have growing experience of 1+ years and have spent time researching their ailment, and the cannabis that could help that ailment. They aren't happy with dispensary pricing, quality, service or all of the above. They have usually all grown out some feminized blueberry, bubblegum and ak-47 and are ready to move on to something more specific to their particular ailment. This is just a generalization on my part, and only an opinion.

I'm pretty sure that most patients would consider themselves "cannaseurs" as most of us consume much larger amounts of cannabis than your average recreational user and are much more sensitive to taste, smell, trichome coverage, etc (pot snobs :blsmoke:

). I don't think we are trying to compete with the Greenhouse Seed Co type of patient. The patient that wants a chemdog, trainwreck, cheese, etc. in feminized form. That market is sown up by the Dutch and Spanish breeders.

But you are dead on with the plant number issue, and with the new grower patients who need something a little simpler to start with, and feminized to allow for reduced selection time. Dead on. Right now we are working with a natural collodial silver solution and testing several mothers for feminized seeds. This process will take a while, as we really want to test the crap out of everything to make sure there are NO HERMS.

The strains worked in the Ski Train Collection were chosen because test grows showed 2 primary F1 phenotypes, with the exception of the Ski Train. The current Ski Train release is an F2, and was released in very limited quantities...30 packs I think. The male was paired to a multitude of cuts that didn't result in consistent pheno's and weren't released. I'd feel comfortable recommending everything except the ski patrol and ski train to new growers, as they are all very easy to grow and produce reliable results. Ski Patrol is the sativa end, and heavy on the haze, so it can be difficult for those with limited space for stretch.

Great discussion bro...keep it going.
BP :bigjoint:

chef c said:
Isnt feminized seed kinda a quick route to a "cubed" version of the mother? I know Its a stupid question but, whats the problem w fem'd seeds? Kinda think theyre cool...

Feminized seed is a result of stressing a selected female to the point that she turns hermaphrodite and pollinates either herself (s1) or other selected females. They are cool, very cool and I've grown tons of them with great success. I've also had many herm on me at some point as well, for what its worth. I still grow feminized seed, and have no plans to stop as I really love testing everything and letting my results make the keep or kill decision.
:peace:

BP

budpatch · Oct 27, 2011

eyecandi said:
I only use colloidal silver for fem'ing, any other method I'm aware of will reinforce the hermaphrodism trait. currently, I'm only doing it to my Durban Poison - this particular pheno came to me from a friend and I made a promise to never give her clones away (I don't believe in hoarding strains, I'm a giver. but this cut was so good, i made the promise. and I don't go back on my word .... kinda weird that way). she is far and above any DP I've ever grown, and I didn't want to lose her, so CS fem'ing was the way to go. so far the phenos are consistant, but I just finished the first small test batch recently and there weren't enough to truly say. the next run will be much bigger and give me a better idea.

since i had the pollen, I also hit my herijuana and afgooey to see what they will do. not many beans from the afgooey, but it's the one I'm looking forward to the most

A person of their word is hard to find these days...I applaud you for that. I'm not certain CS won't also make future generations prone to herms but only testing will show for sure. We are going to use only non feminized mothers grown directly from regular seed stock to avoid complications. Altitude Organics South is close to my office, I'll have to pick up some of your beans and give them a run!
Support Colorado breeders!

BP

eyecandi · Oct 27, 2011

dude, i'll give some to you gratis. once you know me, you'll know it's what i do. i've literally given away 100x more then has been purchased at the storefront. believe me, i'm all for the free market and making a living, but right now i'm more into giving them out ..... every patient has the right to grow their own and should, it's a very rewarding endeavor and can teach them how much work really goes into a grow. besides, i want to see USA made beans getting out there and the more that people have for the future.

Medshed · Oct 27, 2011

budpatch said:
I think where you go off track with your post is the "most patients" part. I don't know if I'd stereotype patients that grow like that. In my experience, most New Growers (less than 2 years growing +/- can be mmj patient or not) want a product that you are talking about. Patient Growers I would categorize differently. I think patient growers generally already have growing experience of 1+ years and have spent time researching their ailment, and the cannabis that could help that ailment. They aren't happy with dispensary pricing, quality, service or all of the above. They have usually all grown out some feminized blueberry, bubblegum and ak-47 and are ready to move on to something more specific to their particular ailment. This is just a generalization on my part, and only an opinion.

I'm pretty sure that most patients would consider themselves "cannaseurs" as most of us consume much larger amounts of cannabis than your average recreational user and are much more sensitive to taste, smell, trichome coverage, etc (pot snobs). I don't think we are trying to compete with the Greenhouse Seed Co type of patient. The patient that wants a chemdog, trainwreck, cheese, etc. in feminized form. That market is sown up by the Dutch and Spanish breeders.

But you are dead on with the plant number issue, and with the new grower patients who need something a little simpler to start with, and feminized to allow for reduced selection time. Dead on. Right now we are working with a natural collodial silver solution and testing several mothers for feminized seeds. This process will take a while, as we really want to test the crap out of everything to make sure there are NO HERMS.

The strains worked in the Ski Train Collection were chosen because test grows showed 2 primary F1 phenotypes, with the exception of the Ski Train. The current Ski Train release is an F2, and was released in very limited quantities...30 packs I think. The male was paired to a multitude of cuts that didn't result in consistent pheno's and weren't released. I'd feel comfortable recommending everything except the ski patrol and ski train to new growers, as they are all very easy to grow and produce reliable results. Ski Patrol is the sativa end, and heavy on the haze, so it can be difficult for those with limited space for stretch.

Great discussion bro...keep it going.
BP

Feminized seed is a result of stressing a selected female to the point that she turns hermaphrodite and pollinates either herself (s1) or other selected females. They are cool, very cool and I've grown tons of them with great success. I've also had many herm on me at some point as well, for what its worth. I still grow feminized seed, and have no plans to stop as I really love testing everything and letting my results make the keep or kill decision.

BP

If it we didn't have plant/weight limits I don't think any of this would be a big deal. It would then be easy to just grow out 20 - 30 plants over the summer, keep what you like and toss the rest. I think of life without the Drug War much like how I grow my vegetable garden. I'm into heirloom tomatoes and run about 10 different varieties (20 total plants) every summer. Some of the varieties turn out to be inconsistent among the phenos but the inconsistency is related to yield, rather than taste. If I like that particular tomato, I just make up for the inconsistency by growing more of it the next year. If we could do that with cannabis, this whole discussion would probably not even happen.

The fact that we are limited on plant counts really drives the need for consistent seed production. Even patient/cannaseurs have to stay within our limits. If we know a strain that works for us, we would want to get a 1-1 relationship between seeds and females of the proper pheno. That consistency frees up more plants to use for experimentation.

I think it is good that 303 is looking into some fem offerings. I've spent my whole career doing technology product management and I see a lot of similarities to the cannabis world. People that are way into their technology forget that most people just want something that works for their lives and is not a hassle to deal with. I also believe there are a lot of cannabis consumers who fall into a similar description. I don't know how you could go wrong offering the same strain in both fem and regular seed versions. It would appeal to both the Linux and the Apple crowds. :smile:

eyecandi · Oct 27, 2011

budpatch said:
A person of their word is hard to find these days...I applaud you for that. I'm not certain CS won't also make future generations prone to herms but only testing will show for sure. We are going to use only non feminized mothers grown directly from regular seed stock to avoid complications. Altitude Organics South is close to my office, I'll have to pick up some of your beans and give them a run!
Support Colorado breeders!

BP

oh yeah, and the reason using CS works best, is that the silver particles inhibit a chemical trigger that tells the plant part to produce female buds, so it instead initiates male flower production (also why it works on individual branches when sprayed, but doesn't affect the rest of the plant). this method will work on plants that are super stable as well and never toss nanners. the other methods rely on a plants' natural hermaphoditic tendancies, and therefor will reinforce that trait.

ohmy · Oct 27, 2011

where can I find old school beens? That are have not been mixed with everything under the sun as I tend to do that on my own

eyecandi · Oct 27, 2011

ohmy said:
where can I find old school beens? That are have not been mixed with everything under the sun as I tend to do that on my own

from old school growers

really though, you have to know what you are looking for and hunt. there are still some old strains around from old breeders, but most are hybridized all over the place now. need landraces to resupply fresh genes. I have 2 10+ yr old mountain strains from the PacNW, one has 2 phenos - grape soda and old skunk phunk .... i grow the skunk funk for patients and have @ 30 original beans left. (I call her Elli .... people are weird about names; they won't buy much when called 'elli', but will buy the shit out of it when called 'elliphant'. go figure)

ohmy · Oct 27, 2011

Kinda a shame everything gets mixed and match and more indaca out there.

eyecandi · Oct 27, 2011

i have way more sativa then indica these days (maybe I need to get out more? seriously). durban and maui are my pure sativas. 3/4 of the rest of my moms are sativa dominant. but it's mostly hybridization these days. this is a cool site for researching heritage http://en.seedfinder.eu/ it's one way to try and find the landraces that contributed to a given lines' gene pool, and to try and re-engineer it (if one so desired and had the time/resources)

budpatch · Oct 28, 2011

Medshed said:
If it we didn't have plant/weight limits I don't think any of this would be a big deal. It would then be easy to just grow out 20 - 30 plants over the summer, keep what you like and toss the rest. I think of life without the Drug War much like how I grow my vegetable garden. I'm into heirloom tomatoes and run about 10 different varieties (20 total plants) every summer. Some of the varieties turn out to be inconsistent among the phenos but the inconsistency is related to yield, rather than taste. If I like that particular tomato, I just make up for the inconsistency by growing more of it the next year. If we could do that with cannabis, this whole discussion would probably not even happen.

The fact that we are limited on plant counts really drives the need for consistent seed production. Even patient/cannaseurs have to stay within our limits. If we know a strain that works for us, we would want to get a 1-1 relationship between seeds and females of the proper pheno. That consistency frees up more plants to use for experimentation.

I think it is good that 303 is looking into some fem offerings. I've spent my whole career doing technology product management and I see a lot of similarities to the cannabis world. People that are way into their technology forget that most people just want something that works for their lives and is not a hassle to deal with. I also believe there are a lot of cannabis consumers who fall into a similar description. I don't know how you could go wrong offering the same strain in both fem and regular seed versions. It would appeal to both the Linux and the Apple crowds.

Man you and I would get along great...I like heirloom and hybrid vegetables and flowers as well and do a garden that sounds very similar to yours. My chocolate cherry tomatoes were freaking amazing this year.

I think the plan has always been to give the patient what they want, and we know that feminized is it, we just want to make sure we do it the right way.

eyecandi said:
oh yeah, and the reason using CS works best, is that the silver particles inhibit a chemical trigger that tells the plant part to produce female buds, so it instead initiates male flower production (also why it works on individual branches when sprayed, but doesn't affect the rest of the plant). this method will work on plants that are super stable as well and never toss nanners. the other methods rely on a plants' natural hermaphoditic tendancies, and therefor will reinforce that trait.

I've been playing around with CS for a couple years myself and have selfed and made some pretty neat fem F1 crosses. I know the cuts I'm running are stable, but can't vouch for everything we're working on right now, so some testing is in order! I've seen threads where big name breeders like OJD are producing their feminized strains using CS instead of chemical methods and having really good results, so I think we're trending in the right direction.

I'd be happy to do a bean swap with you! Don't mind contributing to the cause though...
BP

ohmy said:
Kinda a shame everything gets mixed and match and more indaca out there.

I think we're starting to trend away from that as more people get legal and involved in the scene. There are a lot of land race genetics coming back now. Check out a company called Malberry, they've got a whole slew of amazing african landrace sativa's. They have great prices as well.
BP

Medshed · Oct 28, 2011

My veggie garden was less than stellar this year. I tried to go organic in my Autopots for the first time and misjudged their feed requirements. Everything started out great but ran out of gas early and I didn't supplement soon/strongly enough. You should try Black Krim tomatoes if you haven't they are excellent.

Back to Cannabis - have you run any Malberry gear? It looks interesting.

budpatch · Oct 28, 2011

Medshed said:
My veggie garden was less than stellar this year. I tried to go organic in my Autopots for the first time and misjudged their feed requirements. Everything started out great but ran out of gas early and I didn't supplement soon/strongly enough. You should try Black Krim tomatoes if you haven't they are excellent.

Back to Cannabis - have you run any Malberry gear? It looks interesting.

My veggies all get the good fortune of being grown in the ground...I love organics though, only way I'll go when growing for my family. My family was eating my cucumbers this year like they were candy bars, nothing makes me happier than seeing my work nourish the ones I love!

Yes, I've grown Malberry gear and recommend it if you have some patience for selection and some head space for stretch. I grew out their durban and swazi about 5 years ago and it was excellent, but the swazi was the best if I remember right. I just picked up one of their Preservation Packs, so I've got the full range of their stuff now. We'll get some poppin in the OPC grow for selection soon. It'll be a few months before I have room in my personal garden.
BP

Medshed · Oct 28, 2011

Head space is something I don't have. I can't even stand up in my grow room in the shed. That's where the plant bondage comes in handy...

I agree with you about the value of organics. Next year the veggies will be rocking in Supersoil. My kids eat cucumbers and tomatoes like candy in the summer. I rarely get any for myself even in a good year...

eyecandi · Oct 28, 2011

really great to meet you today BP! another good person with a good head on his shoulders. I look forward to trying out those 303 beans!

chef c · Oct 29, 2011

me hotsauce indi and disp84 want some!!! Ps still got an og list for you to look at when your ready. you too ec...

budpatch · Oct 31, 2011

eyecandi said:
really great to meet you today BP! another good person with a good head on his shoulders. I look forward to trying out those 303 beans!

A real pleasure for me as well. Can't wait to get a test on some of your gear! Durban x Widow first I think...as much as you're hyping up that Durban I've got to see for myself what the deal is.

chef c said:
me hotsauce indi and disp84 want some!!! Ps still got an og list for you to look at when your ready. you too ec...

Shoot me a PM chef...lets get er done!

We had the Ski Train "original" mom tested by Herbal Synergy and the results came back at 21.89% THC! :hump:

We also got some great feedback from the patients at the Meet and Greet that stopped by and got to sample some of the finished medicine. Thanks to everyone that came and chatted with us last night.

BP

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