Nitrogen!

Jerry Garcia · Feb 28, 2010

So this video came out a little while back, but I watched it again today and thought it is worth posting.

http://www.growersunderground.com/blog/hydroponics-articles/the-great-phosphorus-myth-exposed

Now, I do not use Advance Nutrients products...I grow organically and am quite happy with it...nor do I have any positive or negative opinion about their company, but the information "Big Mike" presents in this video is important nonetheless.

The important info starts at 3:40 in the video (Big Mike turns out to be a rather long-winded fellow) and it involves Nitrogen levels in flower. His charts, which he claims represents cannabis nutritional requirements, clearly show that plants tend to require MORE nitrogen during flower.

While P and K requirements also rise during flower, N does too. So why do the products Big Mike is pushing at the end of the video have ZERO NITROGEN when he just got through explaining how important it is during flower? I mean, look at those charts! Green is veg, red is flower.

Why do people (formerly myself included) have issues with leaves yellowing up prematurely? Because they decrease the amount of Nitrogen they give in flower! Why do they do that? It's what every flowering formula out there is made of! Even my organic BMO Flower Power I love so dearly is 1-8-7. I have to supplement with high NITROGEN Mexican bat guano and use the 5-2-5 veg formula throughout most of flower (note how perfect this ratio is according to the charts!).

People see their leaves yellow in flower, so they rightfully think their plant has a deficiency. But then they try to counter with increased dosage of nutrients, only to exasperate the problem by overloading with FLOWER nutrients, high in P and K but lacking N. The result at harvest time is fried plants with buds that never reached their max size or potency because they weren't fed a proper diet.

So in conclusion, don't let your leaves get yellow because you stopped feeding Nitrogen. Too much Nitrogen may inhibit/slow flowering, but you want your leaves to stay green and happy throughout the entire grow :leaf:

Jerry Garcia · Feb 28, 2010

Thoughts are welcome...please share!

Wetdog · Feb 28, 2010

All you have to do is look at the old standbys, Jack's (Peters), Bloom Booster at 10-30-20, or Dyna-Gro Bloom at 3-12-6.

A 1-3-2 and a 1-4-2, nothing like your 1-8-7 that you have to supplement with N.

Not ragging on you, it was handy and many are even way more out of wack. with the P and K ratios to N.

It doesn't make sense to me, other than a marketing ploy to sell more incomplete products, when growers found years ago that a 3 or 4 to 1 ratio of P to N worked best, along with a 2 to 1 for K to N.

If these ratios didn't work, either those 2 company's wouldn't have stayed in business for 40+ years, or the ratio would have been tweaked.

Just common sense.

Wet

cazador · Feb 28, 2010

Wetdog said:
All you have to do is look at the old standbys, Jack's (Peters), Bloom Booster at 10-30-20, or Dyna-Gro Bloom at 3-12-6.

A 1-3-2 and a 1-4-2, nothing like your 1-8-7 that you have to supplement with N.

Not ragging on you, it was handy and many are even way more out of wack. with the P and K ratios to N.

It doesn't make sense to me, other than a marketing ploy to sell more incomplete products, when growers found years ago that a 3 or 4 to 1 ratio of P to N worked best, along with a 2 to 1 for K to N.

If these ratios didn't work, either those 2 company's wouldn't have stayed in business for 40+ years, or the ratio would have been tweaked.

Just common sense.

Wet

sounds pretty good. bongsmilie

filter funker · Feb 28, 2010

Jerry Garcia said:
So this video came out a little while back, but I watched it again today and thought it is worth posting.

http://www.growersunderground.com/blog/hydroponics-articles/the-great-phosphorus-myth-exposed

Now, I do not use Advance Nutrients products...I grow organically and am quite happy with it...nor do I have any positive or negative opinion about their company, but the information "Big Mike" presents in this video is important nonetheless.

The important info starts at 3:40 in the video (Big Mike turns out to be a rather long-winded fellow) and it involves Nitrogen levels in flower. His charts, which he claims represents cannabis nutritional requirements, clearly show that plants tend to require MORE nitrogen during flower.

While P and K requirements also rise during flower, N does too. So why do the products Big Mike is pushing at the end of the video have ZERO NITROGEN when he just got through explaining how important it is during flower? I mean, look at those charts! Green is veg, red is flower.

Why do people (formerly myself included) have issues with leaves yellowing up prematurely? Because they decrease the amount of Nitrogen they give in flower! Why do they do that? It's what every flowering formula out there is made of! Even my organic BMO Flower Power I love so dearly is 1-8-7. I have to supplement with high NITROGEN Mexican bat guano and use the 5-2-5 veg formula throughout most of flower (note how perfect this ratio is according to the charts!).

People see their leaves yellow in flower, so they rightfully think their plant has a deficiency. But then they try to counter with increased dosage of nutrients, only to exasperate the problem by overloading with FLOWER nutrients, high in P and K but lacking N. The result at harvest time is fried plants with buds that never reached their max size or potency because they weren't fed a proper diet.

So in conclusion, don't let your leaves get yellow because you stopped feeding Nitrogen. Too much Nitrogen may inhibit/slow flowering, but you want your leaves to stay green and happy throughout the entire grow

Iv'e learned the hard way just how imporant nitro is during flower. Luckily the 3 part i'm using has a higher N ratio for flowering than it does for Veg, but I made the mistake of giving my plants a lower dose of N and not following the chart which resulted in many fan leaves dropping early. The bud's have fattened up since iv'e adjusted the nutrient solution but there's little chance of re-veg now that most of the sun leaves have fallen off my plants

Next round i'm 100% commited to giving my plants a steady diet of N and keeping the leaves as healthy as possible right up until flush. This is VERY important and is so underestimated in the growing community! Keep your levels up and leaves green folks! Healthy leaves=more energy to produce bud's with, it's not rocket science :blsmoke:

Jerry Garcia · Mar 1, 2010

All you have to do is look at the old standbys, Jack's (Peters), Bloom Booster at 10-30-20, or Dyna-Gro Bloom at 3-12-6.

I'm saying that Jacks 10-30-20 is wrong for Cannabis. As is 3-12-6. Did you watch the video? Did you see the charts indicating how much N a plant requires compared with P? It sure as hell isn't 3 or 4 P to N. If anything it is 3 or 4 N to P. Cannabis plants don't need as much phosphorous as most companies provide.

A 1-3-2 and a 1-4-2, nothing like your 1-8-7 that you have to supplement with N.

Even a 1-3-2 and 1-4-2 are wrong. Maybe other plants, for which Jacks or Peters or whatever was designed, benefit from this type of ratio, but according to the data presented in the movie cannabis will not. Sure it will grow because there is some of each element present, but it will never maximize it's potential if it's not fed right.

Not ragging on you, it was handy and many are even way more out of wack. with the P and K ratios to N.

That's my point, there are so many products out there with bloated levels of P...it's as if they are setting up the uninformed to fail!

If these ratios didn't work, either those 2 company's wouldn't have stayed in business for 40+ years, or the ratio would have been tweaked.

That is where you are wrong my friend. Have all those companies been in business solely to produce marijuana? No...most nutrient products are designed to work on a wide swath of plant types (even in the video he explains where General Hydroponics got their name...).

Those products clearly do WORK for growing pot, but do they maximize the potential of cannabis specifically...no. As I said before, I do not endorse or condemn Advanced Nutrients...but they do claim to formulate their nutrients for cannabis growth specifically.

Thanks for chiming in Wet...someone had to get this conversation started! bongsmilie

Jerry Garcia · Mar 1, 2010

filter funker said:
Iv'e learned the hard way just how imporant nitro is during flower. Luckily the 3 part i'm using has a higher N ratio for flowering than it does for Veg, but I made the mistake of giving my plants a lower dose of N and not following the chart which resulted in many fan leaves dropping early. The bud's have fattened up since iv'e adjusted the nutrient solution but there's little chance of re-veg now that most of the sun leaves have fallen off my plants Next round i'm 100% commited to giving my plants a steady diet of N and keeping the leaves as healthy as possible right up until flush. This is VERY important and is so underestimated in the growing community! Keep your levels up and leaves green folks! Healthy leaves=more energy to produce bud's with, it's not rocket science

Word...everyone has to learn somehow. For you and me it was the hard way...that's why I'm trying to spread some knowledge so others don't fall into the same trap!

cazador · Mar 1, 2010

So Jerry, What are your suggested NPK ratios for MJ during veg and flower?

Uncle Ben · Mar 1, 2010

Jerry Garcia said:
The important info starts at 3:40 in the video (Big Mike turns out to be a rather long-winded fellow) and it involves Nitrogen levels in flower. His charts, which he claims represents cannabis nutritional requirements, clearly show that plants tend to require MORE nitrogen during flower.

While P and K requirements also rise during flower, N does too. So why do the products Big Mike is pushing at the end of the video have ZERO NITROGEN when he just got through explaining how important it is during flower?

Because BM doesn't know what he's doing other than how to market. He needs to practice what he preaches. His "Grow" food is a 2-1-6, the Bloom food is a 0-5-4, and he's preaching the value of N during flowering! Whew!

In spite of seeming to understand the value of N, he stills sells low N crap to the public, makes false claims like you need 20 amino acids to produce "bigger flowers", and makes no bones about his deceptive ways. Guy's a nut. IOW, too much P will block Mg, Ca, N and Fe uptake. I didn't listen to the whole spill, but I don't believe he ever covered nutrient antagonism, a most important concept in plant nutrition, he just pointed out what I've known for years - that too much P can induce a harsh smoke as well as give a gritty feel to your leaves. But folks are gonna listen to a guy like BM long before they listen to someone like me (see my sig line). I've been the target of gang bangs from jerk-offs who buy from guys like him and wonder why their plants look like featherless canaries, witness the smart ass jerks at the now defunct Planet Ganja and at TCC.

I mean we (typical horticulturists, nurserymen, greenhouse managers, etc.) have understood and practiced these basic NPK principles for ages. Where in the hell has BM been all these years, on his throne selling enhanced butt wipe?

That's why I keep harping on you guys to know the NPK values of the products you're buying so you don't get duped by such guys as Advanced Shysters.

Why do people (formerly myself included) have issues with leaves yellowing up prematurely? Because they decrease the amount of Nitrogen they give in flower! Why do they do that? It's what every flowering formula out there is made of! Even my organic BMO Flower Power I love so dearly is 1-8-7. I have to supplement with high NITROGEN Mexican bat guano and use the 5-2-5 veg formula throughout most of flower (note how perfect this ratio is according to the charts!).

Bingo!

People see their leaves yellow in flower, so they rightfully think their plant has a deficiency. But then they try to counter with increased dosage of nutrients, only to exasperate the problem by overloading with FLOWER nutrients, high in P and K but lacking N. The result at harvest time is fried plants with buds that never reached their max size or potency because they weren't fed a proper diet.

What can I say...

A 1-3-2 is not wrong as long as it doesn't induce premature leaf drop, but how many times have you read my posts where I said that I've used a 18-4-9 from start to finish and slapped someone's hand for using a low N food?

I pretty much gotcha covered with this ditty: https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/158144-never-ending-abuse-phosphorous-bloom.html

Glad you're finally seeing the light.

UB

deflator · Mar 1, 2010

Uncle Ben said:
In spite of seeming to understand the value of N, he stills sells low N crap to the public, makes false claims like you need 20 amino acids to produce "bigger flowers". Guys a nut

I dunno, I think he's a genius. Not only does he sell you something incomplete for way more, he sells you something that is likely to induce the under-informed into adding MORE of that product (or another) because they see a deficiency... Sell a gimped product and then provide one that fixes it, like that's never been done before...

filter funker · Mar 1, 2010

deflator said:
I dunno, I think he's a genius. Not only does he sell you something incomplete for way more, he sells you something that is likely to induce the under-informed into adding MORE of that product (or another) because they see a deficiency... Sell a gimped product and then provide one that fixes it, like that's never been done before...

This is the exact reason why I can't wait to pick up my $10 tub of 30-10-10 today :mrgreen:

Time to retire my 3 part until i'm ready to go hydro and give my plants some simple lovin.

Would anyone happen to know of anywhere that carries jack's classic line up here in Canada EH?

All I can find is Plant-prod, mind you the ingredients do look identical according to the label....

http://www.plant-prod.ca/product_e.php?id=356&category=78

cazador · Mar 1, 2010

filter funker said:
This is the exact reason why I can't wait to pick up my $10 tub of 30-10-10 today

Time to retire my 3 part until i'm ready to go hydro and give my plants some simple lovin.

Would anyone happen to know of anywhere that carries jack's classic line up here in Canada EH?

All I can find is Plant-prod, mind you the ingredients do look identical according to the label....

http://www.plant-prod.ca/product_e.php?id=356&category=78

It dosen't say where it's getting the N from? Not sure it's the same :!:

filter funker · Mar 1, 2010

cazador said:
It dosen't say where it's getting the N from? Not sure it's the same

You are correct, maybe i'll contact them and see if they can provide me with an answer. There's no other 30-10-10's I can find anywhere around here so we'll see. Thanks for pointing that out.

Jerry Garcia · Mar 1, 2010

Uncle Ben said:
Because BM doesn't know what he's doing other than how to market. He needs to practice what he preaches. His "Grow" food is a 2-1-6, the Bloom food is a 0-5-4, and he's preaching the value of N during flowering! Whew!

That's what I was thinking the entire duration of that video. His own charts show it clearly...that N requirements go up in flower, not down! And even in the strains in which it does go down, it's still 3+ times higher than the required P.

In spite of seeming to understand the value of N, he stills sells low N crap to the public, makes false claims like you need 20 amino acids to produce "bigger flowers", and makes no bones about his deceptive ways. Guy's a nut. IOW, too much P will block Mg, Ca, N and Fe uptake. I didn't listen to the whole spill, but I don't believe he ever covered nutrient antagonism, a most important concept in plant nutrition, he just pointed out what I've known for years - that too much P can induce a harsh smoke as well as give a gritty feel to your leaves. But folks are gonna listen to a guy like BM long before they listen to someone like me (see my sig line). I've been the target of gang bangs from jerk-offs who buy from guys like him and wonder why their plants look like featherless canaries, witness the smart ass jerks at the now defunct Planet Ganja and at TCC.

A 1-3-2 is not wrong as long as it doesn't induce premature leaf drop, but how many times have you read my posts where I said that I've used a 18-4-9 from start to finish and slapped someone's hand for using a low N food?

I pretty much gotcha covered with this ditty: https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/158144-never-ending-abuse-phosphorous-bloom.html

Glad you're finally seeing the light.

UB

Indeed UB, your posts always seem to point back to a few basic tenants of gardening, and the importance of Nitrogen has always been one. You can never tell people enough about this topic however, and the charts in the video really lend credence to your nitrogen-pushing philosophies!

While I don't share your disdain for Big Mike or AN, I would never use their products...way too expensive...

Jerry Garcia · Mar 1, 2010

cazador said:
So Jerry, What are your suggested NPK ratios for MJ during veg and flower?

My grow formula is 5-2-5...I usually add some 2-0-0 cal mag+ w/ micronutrients, some big bloom, which is <1-<1-1 or something like that, occasionally some 5-1-1 emulsion (usually separate from the grow formula feeding).

My final NPK is something like 8-3-6, not counting the 9-3-2 bat guano and 1-0-0 castings mixed into my peat-based soil-less mix.

I'm not sure there is an ideal NPK, but look at the first chart in the video and find a formula that best fits it. My 5-2-5 is pretty good, but I don't think it's sufficient by itself.

I've also been thinking that its important to provide nutrients from different sources, especially when using organics. As you can see from the last paragraph, mine get it from guano, castings, fish emulsion, kelp, cal-mag+, and the liquid grow formula (which is really a concentrated organic tea of goodness http://www.angelfire.com/ar2/tts/bmogig.html ). I'm not sure if it really makes a difference, as they will probably be happy as long as get enough NPK etc, but it certainly helps the soil tilth, and a happy, healthy soil makes happy, healthy plants... :weed:

Uncle Ben · Mar 1, 2010

filter funker said:
All I can find is Plant-prod, mind you the ingredients do look identical according to the label....

http://www.plant-prod.ca/product_e.php?id=356&category=78

Excellent company that sells excellent products. I have 75 lbs. of some of their foods. Call them up and get their 2010 product packet.

UB

Uncle Ben · Mar 1, 2010

Jerry Garcia said:
That's what I was thinking the entire duration of that video. His own charts show it clearly...that N requirements go up in flower, not down! And even in the strains in which it does go down, it's still 3+ times higher than the required P.

Screw his charts and screw his products. You have no proof that ANY of his video productions are bonafide. It's like a car dealership's leasing program.....it benefits them, not you. You certainly aren't there certifying the "tests" as being credible. Anyone can produce a chart with the aid of a computer and printer.

N requirements don't increase during flowering unless the plant is bulking up regarding foliage production. N supports foliage production, in general. In their natural state, there is no change in soil nutrients available to a plant from one stage to the other. The NPK soil levels stay about the same. As much as BM would have you believe he can not reinvent the (botanical) wheel.

Bottom line - it's hard to argue with a 20-20-20 if you're a little gun shy about this nutrient thingie.

UB

Uncle Ben · Mar 1, 2010

deflator said:
I dunno, I think he's a genius.

And so was Hitler.

Yes, he has hype down to a science.

filter funker · Mar 1, 2010

Uncle Ben said:
Excellent company that sells excellent products. I have 75 lbs. of some of their foods. Call them up and get their 2010 product packet.

UB

Thanks for the info UB! I trust your opinion 100%. A store here in town carries the full line. At $9 for half a kilo you can't go wrong. Iv'e stocked up on the 31-10-10, 10-52-10 and 20-20-20. Wasn't sure about the bloom food , which is a 15-30-15. I'm not familiar with this ratio, what's your take on it?

IAm5toned · Mar 1, 2010

ive done side by side comparisons, in a very simple experiment, 2 years ago. sadly, i didnt take pics, and didnt record detailed weights and measures.
medium was kroger brand generic potting soil... lol ghetto! but i used it because it had no nutes, and was sterile, and uber cheap.
5 fem clones, from a single mother of an unknown local strain, were rooted in jiffy plugs. the plugs were then inserted into 32z cups, and then into 1 gal pots for there final planting. plants were grown to aprox 12"/3-4 nodes and flipped to 12/12. the entire grow from start to finish was done under about 200w of cfl's. all recieved the same watering/feeding schedules, except for the nutes, each plant was treated as close to the same as possible w/out being in a lab setting. nothing was done as far as topping or training.
plant a was the control, left alone.
plant b treated with blood meal dissolved in h20 for entire veg phase. no nutes for flower.
plant c treated with dissolved blood meal veg phase, soil was treated with bonemeal for flowering before planting
plant d soil treated with blood meal for entire veg phase, fed dissolved blood meal during flowering.
plant e fed dissolved bloodmeal for entire growth cycle, soil treated with bonemeal during final repotting

both d and e showed the best overgrowth and harvest. e was definitly the best.
b was a 3rd, closer to 2nd, but never really maxed potential compared to e.
c was a surprising dissapointment, i think the higher p-k levels might have messed with it during veg.... only slight improvement over the control, and to be honest the control performed better during veg, lol. but the smoke was nice, compared to the yield.

Nitrogen!

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